Posted on 12/02/2011 10:04:25 PM PST by bruinbirdman
Enough is enough. Please stop defaming Germany out there in the blogosphere.
The Germans are not engaged in a mercantilist conspiracy to subjugate and milk southern Europe. They are not conducting “warfare by other means”, or heaven forbid, trying to establish a Fourth Reich.
The German people entered monetary union for honourable motives, believing they were acting as good Europeans. It is excruciating for them to see those Athens banners in Syntagma Square showing Chancellor Angela Merkel wearing the Swastika, or read that sign “Arbeit Macht Frei”.
They gave up the D-Mark reluctantly under French and Italian pressure, as the price for acquiescence in Reunification.
They entered EMU at an overvalued rate after the Reunification bubble, leaving them in semi-slump for half a decade. They slowly clawed back competitiveness the hard way, by squeezing wages and driving up productivity.
It is entirely understandable that they now think Club Med can and should do the same. (They are profoundly wrong, of course, because Germany was able to lower relative wages during a) a global boom, b) against other EMU states that were inflating c) and with benchmark borrowing cost that stayed low even during the dog days. None of these factors apply to Italy or Spain now. But this is hard to explain this to the man or woman on the Berlin tram.)
If EMU now puts Germany in mercantilist ascendancy – an untenable position politically – it is by accident. They make good products (and for that reason they should have a strong currency that rises to reflect the fact). The euro is the cause of all the trouble, not German ambitions or motives. Germany is now hated in Europe more than at any time since World War Two because it allowed itself to be
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...
No good deed goes unpunished, Angela.
And all the man in the street cares for is that the goodies keep flowing.
I said right on this forum back when they were bringing the Euro online that marrying weak economies with strong ones would be disaster, with Germany crushing all the rest. Chickens sure are roosting now.
Yes, the German people are unfairly criticized.
The need to get a better handle on their government...who betrayed them.
Let's hope they fix their system and remain peaceful.
Because, if they get p!ssed off and feel slighted they could again be a world power equal or stronger than Russia.
In a mere 10-15 years.
Germany, why haven’t you simply pulled out of the euro by now?
These low lifes will hate you for trying to save it, you can’t save it, and trying to save it will wreck your economy.
Bail. Now!
BUMP what you said. Why Germany would want to continue to babysit and buy toys for the rest of the ingrates in Europe is beyond me.
“Arbeit Macht Frei”.
The statement above might just be a good sugestion for the Greek government employes and other southern euros as well
Since the author gets even the mos basic of facts wrong - how can I accept his other arguments?
Reunification was in 1990
Euro Introduce for accounting in 1999
Euro Curency Notes & Coins, 2002
Germany has been using its stronger position within the Currency Union to flagrantly violate its terms with impunity AND subjugate the weaker economies since the whole thing began!
We’re bailing out the whole world, could we quit too?
Pay your damn taxes and STFU, you Greek scofflaws.
(And quit thinking you can be in college until age 30, then retire at age 50. Jerks.)
Your not alone...
Despite the caricatures that misinform opinion in America, the Germans have contrived a political, cultural, and economic system that works very well. The record in this regard has been impressive indeed.
The author points out:
They entered EMU at an overvalued rate after the Reunification bubble, leaving them in semi-slump for half a decade. They slowly clawed back competitiveness the hard way, by squeezing wages and driving up productivity.
This of course is subsequent to the "economic miracle" which transformed postwar Germany from "Schutt und Asche" to one of the greatest exporting countries providing its people with one of the highest standards of living in the world. In addition, Germany absorbed the devastated East Germany which was an economic basket case and devoted a large piece of its treasure bringing the East German economy up to its world-class standards a process which the author notes produce the "reunification bubble".
In doing all of this it is right to acknowledge that Germany accomplished these wonders without the burden of maintaining a robust defense establishment which was kindly provided by the United States. However, that is true of the rest of Europe, although to a lesser degree in Great Britain, and most of those countries did not prosper as did Germany.
American conservatives complain about the social safety net in Germany while my German neighbors roll their eyes at what they see as virtually an immoral disregard for the needs of the deprived in America. To a large extent the Germans are uninformed, or misinformed by their own media, about how extensive the American social net really is. Further, they deplore what they regard as a squandering of precious assets in wars abroad, especially in Iraq, which they see as bringing America down. Their knowledge of American politics is imperfect, they are vulnerable to outlandish conspiracy theories, they have access limited very much to left-wing criticisms of America, they have been schooled to believe the Barak Obama is wonderful and that George Bush was so stupid he couldn't tie his shoes. But they are easily as well-informed about America as the average American is about Germany who typically resorts to outdated caricatures of Nazis or beer saufers in leather shorts.
Although conservative Americans if given the choice would certainly have made adjustments in the size of the social net, there is no question that the Germans count themselves satisfied with its substance. I am familiar with excesses and I have no doubt that the social net will soon have to be rationalized. But the main point is that it is the product of a real democracy and the social net reflects the will of the people. This is what the author applauds and it is the loss of sovereign democracy which makes him so anxious. With that we conservatives have no quarrel.
The author said:
They slowly clawed back competitiveness the hard way, by squeezing wages and driving up productivity.
One might say that the German people refrained from choking the Golden Goose. One might say they postponed gratification to a degree that permitted productivity to flourish. Their neighbors to the south did not. The Germans, at least my neighbors, think the Southern tier of PIGS (Ireland by an accident of geography being located a wee bit to the north) stole from the future and now when that game is played out they want to steal from the Germans.
In other words, a coherent and relatively homogenous culture in Germany has created a democracy which largely governs itself with comparative fiscal prudence. It has been able to afford a substantial welfare state because it is a productive economy and it is a productive economy because of its exceptional rigor in education and training. The object of the European Union is to move the locus of decision-making from the people of Germany to elites who will demagogue the decision-making process by appeal to the profligate peoples of the Southern tier.
Before we Americans point fingers at Germany we ought to consider our own behavior which is hardly one in which we postponed gratification so that productivity could flourish. We had not quite lost the power to borrow from the future so we continue to do so but no one can deny the reckoning is coming. It seems to me that the politics of envy is being played on both sides of the Atlantic. I do not see any reason to believe that the Americans are less vulnerable to the appeal to the darker angels of our nature than are the Europeans. The Astroturf "occupy" movement is a contrivance of Obama and Soros to generate a class war explicitly based on envy. We no doubt will experience an election with more than class envy to be employed by the demagogues.
The pattern of the left is invariably the same, to change the rules of the game by moving decision-making power to another venue or institution. In America they seek to eliminate states rights by federalizing everything and when the federal government does not appease them, they seek a treaty at the United Nations. In Europe, the elites have stripped ancient European nations of much of their sovereignty and, with even the tenuous restraints imposed on consuming productivity by democracies sidestepped, the harvest of fiscal and monetary crisis is now unavoidable.
The question for the Germans as the author says is what kind of punishment do the Germans want to take? It appears that Merkel wants to preserve the unitary currency and that strikes me as a hopeless task especially as long as it is imposed, like the proverbial Astroturf, not by the will of the European people but by the shenanigans of the elite. Merkel, at least, wants automatic self-executing sanctions for countries which insist on eating their seed corn. Only Pollyanna would believe that they will actually work.
Ultimately, there will be a European Union perhaps not in my lifetime but it will come only when it is the genuine democratic expression of the people who will be taxed and burdened. No taxation without...
As one who has been here since 1988 - I agree, with some of your assertions - especially concering the general german ignorance of anything even remotely approaching what most of us would consider conservative values.
As to the rest - Germany insisted upon imposing the 3% deficit cap AND the penalties for breaching it in the Maastricht Treaty. They were the first to breach it and vetoed the sanctions against themselves. Germany breached again in 2005 no sanctions and again in 2009 & 2010 - still no sanctions. The rest of the Euro countries therefore saw no need to follow suit.
And now Germany wants “central control” (which translates to Berlin) and automatic sanctions ...
That each and every one of the PIIGS, as well as France and Germany has known EXACTLY who is exceeding the limits and by how much since at least 1999 is telling. NO ONE CARED then, and Merkel & Co. now only want to save the Banks on the backs of the populace.
As to sqeezing wages - that is a funny way of describing tax increases! Austerity? The government just spends more and more on social projects and then lies about productivity, employment etc ... since the media is state run - noone is the wiser. Oh, some criticism is allowed and the occasional scandal is always good for shifting attention - very few, if ANY media outlets over here will state clearly what is TRUELY going on in the economy! As if Greece is the root cause of all evils in Euroland.
Even FReepers here use the lame “scoflaw” arguments against the Greek people who are enraged at thier government and the enslavement of themselves and thier children to unelected officials in a foreign country as well as the International Banking community.
Those Governments and Banks KNEW that Greece could not pay. They have know for YEARS that it was not possible. They made the loans anyway making a fortune in the process. Now, Greece is on the Brink of default, and, instead of being forced to eat the loss - the Greek citizen and all his potential wealth for the next several generations has been pawned to pay the debt.
In the end, the winners will be the big banks and governments holding that debt. Funny how that seems to be Germany and german banks. IOW, the title should be:
“Germany is the ultimate winner in the EMU”
Merkel & Co. now only want to save the Banks on the backs of the populace.
You are quite right in this assertion. I am sure, however, that Chancellor Merkel would say that she is saving the populace (of Germany) by saving the Banks because if there is a general financial meltdown the burden on the populace will be severe.
One of the problems we have is that we cross an analysis of what went wrong with what should be done now. Do we want justice or do we want survival? Do we want to say that the culprits are the bankers and the politicians and not the Greek people and therefore we should permit the Banks to crash and bring down the entire European economy with them? Would that be justice? It certainly would not be survival.
One can argue whether the demise of Greece would precipitate the cascade of dominoes that would ultimately break down the European system and, by extension, the world economy. But that is their argument.
So they want to solve this problem without resort to the people because they know they cannot go to the people and say, we want to impoverish you for many years to clean up this excess. Because when one tries to impose a solution the retort always is "we want justice." So they attempt to do this by Astroturf with a treaty and not a referendum and they think they might get away with it because the consequences will be disguised as they kick the can down the road.
Were the Greek people fraudulently deceived or did they want to be deceived? Ultimately they are responsible for the people they put in office. That understanding does not advance a solution.
Greece should default. There will be a period of turmoil, and some banks will implode.
All that Merkel & Co are doing is kicking the can a bit further down the road. The farther we allow the to do so, the worse it will become because it MUST happen. Mathematically it can not be otherwise and those people in charge know it. The do not want to FACE it, so they punt - and let the populace suffer.
Its not about justice. It IS about survival. But the people should be the ones who survive, not the governments and banks who gambled one too many times and now refuse to face the consequences.
“The pattern of the left is invariably the same, to change the rules of the game by moving decision-making power to another venue or institution. In America they seek to eliminate states rights by federalizing everything and when the federal government does not appease them, they seek a treaty at the United Nations.”
Good observation.
“One of the problems we have is that we cross an analysis of what went wrong with what should be done now. Do we want justice or do we want survival? Do we want to say that the culprits are the bankers and the politicians and not the Greek people and therefore we should permit the Banks to crash and bring down the entire European economy with them? Would that be justice? It certainly would not be survival.”
The next phase will move from ‘what is desired’ to what is inevitable. The massive amount of credit generated is too big to pay off, so the only alternative is default and liquidation.
There might be another alternative, one of extreme austerity where all the debts are paid back over the couple of decades, but there is no political will to seriously consider such a solution. Hence I believe the natural course of events will take place, with a breakup of the Euro and a painful resolution of the debt structure.
Maybe it would help to see the humor. It has a way of alleviating excruciation. Note tagline. And anyway, the joke's on the Greeks (and everybody else!).
>> Even FReepers here use the lame “scoflaw” arguments against the Greek people ...
The “scofflaw” argument comes from personal experience. My wife, now 64, had an AFS (American Field Service) Greek high school exchange student living with her for a year in the ‘60s. They have remained close over the decades.
For years, both Yohanna and her husband bitterly complained about the Greek people’s “we demands our rights” and “If you pay taxes, you are a fool” attitude.
Yohanna herself has benefited from the Greek “work ethic”. She finished grad school (all paid for by the Greek Gummn’t) at age 28. She became a senior official at the Greek Tourist Board, and retired - at age 50 - with full pay and benefits.
So, now we have:
1/ The Greeks being fiscally governed by someone they did not elect, and
2/ The frugal and sensible (albeit rather dim-wittedly influenced by the left-wing) Germans, who have, in the words of Thomas Sowell, opened a joint checking account with the Greeks.
Well, guys, y’all have been looking for governmental Nirvana in Europe for nearly a century now: Nazi-ism, Commune-ism, and now Euro-ism. In the words of the Spike Jones song: “Ve are the New World Order; ve bring to the world dis-order.”
Enjoy your ride with the Greek OWS boys. Too bad you don’t have the Der Ewige Juden to blame for this one. (Oh, wait - that’s coming.)
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