Posted on 02/05/2012 2:16:29 AM PST by edge919
Atty. Van Irion to Appeal Judge Malihi’s Decision: Court Ignored Basic Rules of Interpretation
“The one point of good news from this ruling is that we have FINALLY gotten a court to rule on the merits of our argument. This may seem like a hollow victory, but it isn’t. Before this everyone that has brought a challenge against Obama’s eligibility has been dismissed on procedural grounds. Nothing is more devastating to the rule of law than a judicial branch that refuses to do its job. Before this case we had courts across the country telling Americans that they had no right to enforce the Constitution. That was absurdity at its most extreme. Liberty Legal Foundation found a case that we believed would at least get a ruling on the merits. We hate the ruling we got, but at least we got a ruling. Now we can appeal that ruling. The appeals process now will focus on the definition of “natural born citizen” rather than procedure for the first time since the issue of Obama’s eligibility was raise in 2008.”
http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2012/02/attorney-van-irion-to-appeal-judge.html
Mr Rogers wrote:
“Here is the short version, for those who find reading a chore:
“It thus clearly appears that, by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign, and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign State or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.
III. The same rule was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
If two paragraphs is too much, here is the one sentence version:
“The same rule was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
My response:
That is easily disputed by actual facts. Every child born in the U.S. was NOT a natural-born citizen in the late 18th century and for even most of the 19th century. Some children born in the U.S. were not even citizens, at all. Blacks were not provided birthright citizenship until the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and subsequently the 14th Amendment, and Native Americans were not provided birthright citizenship until the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
As discussed in WKA, blacks were considered property and thus could not be citizens, while Indians were treated separately in the Constitution, being members of foreign nations inside the USA.
The critical statement remains:
““The same rule [the rule applying to natural born subjects] was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution [as natural born citizens, since we were no longer subjects] as originally established.”
IOW, the rule applied to subjects in the colonies continued to be applied to citizens after Independence. Thus, NBS = NBC.
You're funny. I guess you missed the part where the Judge said the Birth Certificate copy from the internet isn't good for anything, but then said that he considers Obama born in Hawaii.
What evidence does the Judge have that Obama was born in Hawaii? The only piece that "sort of" indicated it the Judge Rejected!
How is coming to a conclusion without evidence deciding a case on it's merits?
I suggest you take it up with them.
I suggest you take it up with them.
Perhaps in the first two cases, but Orly contested that claim. If the issue is contested, how can the judge rule in absence of any evidence?
Even in the first two cases, why should the Judge accept plaintiff's mere allegation on this?
And you seem to unable to comprehend this simplest point. Orly did not stipulate that Obama was born in Hawaii. Whatever the previous two attorneys said does not bind her case.
She stipulated that Obama's location of birth is in question. You may argue that the first two attorneys stipulated Hawaii, but Orly did not. His ruling cannot encompass all three cases because the facts as stipulated in the first two cases cannot bind the third case where such "facts" are in dispute.
Rogers, do you not understand what it means to C&P the "entire" decision?? You stopped at Part III. All this says is that English common law was observed in the colonies to make persons natural-born subjects. Part V is where the court cites Minor v. Happersett and gives an exclusive, self-limiting definition of NBC. Notice, the court did NOT stop at part III. Thanks for proving me right yet again. You make it so easy.
Malihi’s decision didn’t stipulate any facts. The judge said he “considered” that Obama was born in Hawaii. He did not cite any source for showing if this is indeed fact or not. Since he admits Obama did NOT enter any legal evidence to support this claim, then it is an opinion, not an actual fact.
What you cited does NOT say this in even the most remote or convoluted fashion. At best, it says NBS = NBS. That's it.
I used your comment to add on top of. I'm preaching to the Obots who may not have understand the full breadth of what you had posted. I do that a lot. Instead, "yes, but ... ", this is a "yes, and ..."
I have cut & pasted, and linked to, the entire decision many times.
However, this sentence:
““The same rule was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
does not equal “All this says is that English common law was observed in the colonies to make persons natural-born subjects.”
Why cut and paste an entire decision when you cannot even read ONE SENTENCE?????
Let me repeat just part of the sentence, since whole sentences are beyond you: “...and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
Now, what is it that continued to prevail under the Constitution? That “every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject” - but if it continued to prevail UNDER the Constitution, then it means that every child born in the US of alien parents was a natural-born citizen”.
The principle that birth in the territory gave natural born status was true of natural born subjects under the colonies, and natural born citizens under the states. That is the only way the “rule in force in all the English Colonies” could have “continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.”
You cannot delete half the sentence to make it read as you wish. WKA made Ark a NBC, as the dissent understood, and as every citizenship decision citing it has understood. You do not have to like it, but if you continue to ignore it, you will continue to LOSE - which is all that birthers have ever done - LOSE!
Until you can show WKA doesn’t apply to Obama, every court will laugh at you - even when Obama & his lawyer refuse to show up.
But you won’t listen, so you will continue to have Obama beat you like a red-haired stepchild. Tell me, do you LIKE getting your ass whupped by Obama? Is it fun for you?
The entire decision:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO.html
Read it, and listen to how you MIGHT be able to argue it doesn’t apply to Obama.
“Mr Rogers, Obama was born a member of a foreign nation.”
Another country made it possible for him to claim citizenship. He did not. Indians are foreign nations located INSIDE the US, so births inside the US territory did not result in US citizenship.
But since birthers love to get their butts beat, go ahead and go to court arguing that Obama is a subject of Queen Elizabeth, and therefor ineligible to be President. That will get you laughed out of court even faster than claiming Minor determines NBC status!
Really - how many times do y’all have to get laughed out of court before you figure out your arguments are legally stupid? Unless and until you argue that WKA doesn’t apply to Obama - and that argument is weak, but certainly COULD be made - you don’t have any chance at all. It has gotten so bad that Obama doesn’t even bother sending an attorney any more...
... that NBS = NBS. That's what the Treaty of 1783 is about as was affirmed in Inglis and Shanks. If this meant what you want it to mean, why did the court not stop its decision here??? It continued on for 46 more pages.
WKA made Ark a NBC, as the dissent understood, and as every citizenship decision citing it has understood.
Wrong. Ankeny footnoted that it did NOT make Ark an NBC.
The entire decision:
... includes Part V, which cites Minor v. Happersett for the court's official definition of NBC: "all children born in the country to parents who were its citizens." Thanks again for proving me right. It's so easy, even a cavemen could do it. Rogers, are you a caveman??
OK. You and the other Obama Butt Boys feel free to keep getting your butts spanked by Obama. If you think WKA says that people born in England continued to be natural born subjects under the Constitution, then you are way beyond any help. Keep losing, and squeal like a pig every time Obama spanks your ass.
And I say the same thing to you as well.
Reply 14 @You can't just make statements like yours without backing them up.
This is how conflict starts.
As the SoS for the State of Georgia Mr. Kemp is aware of the weight of his words. You need to take the time to do the legwork on your statement and back it up. Otherwise, all you're doing is wantonly spreading a fire.
This is not a slight, nor do I wish to pick a fight. I would simply like to flesh this out. If it's BS then it needs to be cut off at the pass.
Seriously, did you just skip reading my replies while you were reading the thread? I mean, this all happened early on in the thread and you first reply was at #37, well after you had to have read the conversation.
Ah, got it.
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