Posted on 03/09/2012 12:54:15 PM PST by unspun
Update:
This update is made simply to point out the problem with Rick Santorum's speech, excerpted below, as many are apparently having difficulty seeing it. I apologize for not making it clearer, earlier.
The problem lays in two sentences:
“And of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is a shambles. It is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it.
It was almost an excellent and critically important speech, but then...
(Excerpt) Read more at gulagbound.com ...
I agree. “Mainline” churches are leftist, in my opinion.
And you think the democrats aren’t going to use this “old stuff?”
I’m glad he’s staying on message, and not getting distracted by trivialities like Obamacare, unemployment or debt.
ARRG! I wish people would stop posting this ancient stuff.
Do you even know what the speech was and to whom it was intended? It was at Ave Maria College, a conservative Catholic school. The intent was to make sure the Catholics do not follow what the some branches of Anglicans and Episcopalians have done with gay marriage, etc.
That's what he meant by mainline Protestants, not to be confused with Evangelical Protestants. It was also given while he wasn't in office, nor campaigning for office.
The mainline churches are the “Seven Sisters” of the traditional Protestant establishment:
American Baptist Churches USA,
Christian Church-Disciples of Christ,
The Episcopal Church,
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
The Presbyterian Church USA,
United Church of Christ
The United Methodist Church
Those churches were the pillars of establishment Protestantism. However, in the past 50 years they have rejected orthodox Christianity and replaced it with relativistic neo-pagan philosophy with a thin veneer of “Christianity” that questions the divinity of Christ.
Mainline Protestantism — United Methodist, Episcopal, United Church of Christ, Presbyterian Church in the US, the Evangelical Lutherans, etc. — has by and large departed from anything recognizable as Christian orthodoxy. Conservative, traditional Christians still in those denominations would understand quite well what Santorum is referring to, and I don’t know that his comment would necessarily hurt him in the south. I have been to churches of many denominations in the south and I, as a former evangelical Christian, and now an Orthodox Christian, have always felt at home.
Having said that, whenever I hear Santorum talking like this, I wonder if he is running for President or is on an evangelistic tour.
yikes... Did that really happen? I knew the UMC folks were way out there, but usually I would not have expected them to be so blatant.
If Santorum wanted to make a point, he probably should have said that what claims to be Christianity in America today is not Christian. People might like to claim the Name, but they reject that He IS Saviour (the only Saviour) AND Lord.
This disease afflicts many so-called Churches -- not just those that are grouped under the Protestant banner.
—This is old stuff pushed by romney supporters on the web.—
I’m thinking Newt supporters. If this killed Santorum, the “not-romney” vote would no longer be split.
This is weeks old, btw...
Thanks to you and all for the discussions.
Dittos
I linger between attending Mass as a visitor, and mourning the Methodism I was raised with
IMHO true people of faith will not abandon Santorum for this statement, in their hearts they know he is right
I’m Protestant and agree with Santorum on this 100%. The other posters on this thread have done a good job explaining why.
That said, it DOES seem like a very foolish thing for Santorum to have said.
1. “Corporations are people, my friend… of course they are. Everything corporations earn ultimately goes to the people. Where do you think it goes? Whose pockets? Whose pockets? People’s pockets. Human beings, my friend.” —Mitt Romney to a heckler at the Iowa State Fair who suggested that taxes should be raised on corporations as part of balancing the budget (August 2011)
2. “I like being able to fire people who provide services to me.” –Mitt Romney, using an unfortunate choice of words while advocating for consumer choice in health insurance plans (January 2012)
3. “I’m not concerned about the very poor. We have a safety net there.” —Mitt Romney (January 2012)
4. “I’ll tell you what, ten-thousand bucks? $10,000 bet?” –Mitt Romney, attempting to make a wager with Rick Perry during a Republican presidential debate to settle a disagreement about health care (December 2011)
5. “I should tell my story. I’m also unemployed.” —Mitt Romney, speaking in 2011 to unemployed people in Florida. Romney’s net worth is over $200 million.
6. “There were a couple of times I wondered whether I was going to get a pink slip” –Mitt Romney, attempting to identify with the problems of average folk (January 2012)
7. “[My wife] drives a couple of Cadillacs.” –Mitt Romney, campaigning for president in Michigan (February 2012)
8. “I get speaker’s fees from time to time, but not very much.” —Mitt Romney, who earned $374,000 in speaking fees in one year according to according to his personal financial disclosure (January 2012)
9. “PETA is not happy that my dog likes fresh air.” —Mitt Romney in 2007, responding to criticism from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals following revelations that he had once put the family dog in a carrier and strapped it to the roof of his car during a 12-hour road trip
10. “I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I love.” –Mitt Romney
Once I discovered (talking with Catholics here) that Catholicism teaches that Mary was perfect and that she NEVER had sex, I could no longer take Catholicism seriously.
And now that I’ve put that on the internet for everyone to see, it’s a good thing I don’t plan on running for political office.
My apologies. I thought this was something he said in a political speech today.
There is a lot of blog pimping going on this last year. I’m learning now, more than ever, that I need to take the extra step. When I see something so inflamatory in an excerpt, I need to read the article and vet the source before posting anything.
This thread was just dumb. It’s the first time ever that blog pimping has actually bothered me.
Absolutely right and that's clear what Santorum was referring to. This Protestant agrees with him. The old mainline confessional denominations have gone to the dark side.
If you want to understand Church doctrine, then talk to a priest, a learned one, not “catholics here”
On the other hand if you want to find reasons to stay a protestant, then just stop and stay protestant
Don’t let little things like abortion waffling, allah embracing, abandoning Israel and and celebrating homosexuality stop you
A third of the angels chose to follow satan and were kicked out of Heaven with him.
I wonder if those type pastors and those who follow obama aren’t in the same group.
I’m not catholic, but I know exactly what Santorum is talking about, and most evangelicals and fundamentalists also know.
Yes, Santorum’s remarks would apply to about half of the catholic church as well. Since his remarks were in a speech at Ave Maria, he was talking to catholics who know that first hand.
The churches that have embraced gay marriage and the like aren’t going to be voting for Repubs in any case. Publicizing remarks about them, made in a religious setting, isn’t going to cost Santorum any support at all since most people know exactly what he is talking about.
Gingrich is my #1, and Santorum is my #2. I like Gingrich better but I’ll have no problem supporting Santorum if and when the time comes.
I think he's confused about which office he's running for, but voters sure aren't.
I can appreciate a man having a solid religious grounding in his life, but I feel that it's better for him to show that grounding in deed, rather than word (as Rick is doing).
Voters want to know how he intends to serve their political interests, and how he intends to lead the country from the position of president. Most aren't all that keen on being preached to by a politician. Especially one who's running for president.
The unfortunate aspect of this is the truth of it. He’s not wrong. All one has to look at is the ELCA and Episcopalian churches to see that he isn’t.
He may not be the nominee, but he’ll sleep at night.
—If you want to understand Church doctrine, then talk to a priest, a learned one, not “catholics here”
On the other hand if you want to find reasons to stay a protestant, then just stop and stay protestant
Don’t let little things like abortion waffling, allah embracing, abandoning Israel and and celebrating homosexuality stop you—
I am not protestant. I am not Catholic.
I am Christian.
I vetted the Mary stuff vigorously. It is what the Catholic church teaches.
“The media always baits him into it, and he has to just learn not to respond.”
So when can we count on him learning? Cause media aren’t going to go away after the primaries, in fact, it will be magnified by a 1000 once Obama gets into the mix. We have one shot at taking this country back and I am not going to waste a vote on someone that has to “learn” anything.
I’m not sure that trying to compare yourself to Andrew Breitbart, and just after he died an untimely death, is a wise move. Nor probably is pinging the site owner to speculate about whether someone “gave up on” his site.
Of course, I’m not sure that asking what three dead people would think about what Santorum said makes any sense either.
Or telling people not to format your post for easier reading because “you like how you posted it.” — you get to format your blog anyway you want, but what is posted here, anybody can requote it in any format they like, including in really little tiny letters if they think that is all it is worth.
I’m Southern Baptist, and his comments don’t bother me. But maybe Arizona Southern Baptists are different from the ones elsewhere.
Perhaps you don’t know what “Mainline Protestantism” means.
It means organizations such as the Episcopal Church, which has deliberately done such things as anoint a divorced gay minister as Bishop of New Hampshire, and put a liberal woman bishop in charge of the whole outfit.
I was an Episcopalian myself, before I converted to Catholicism many years ago. I take no pleasure in seeing what has been happening to the church I grew up in, which gave me much that I will always be grateful for.
“Mainline” does not include the more vital Protestant churches, such as those usually called Evangelical. Just the ones that were fashionable among the rich social set, which for the most part have incurred the most decay.
“A school of thought may be called “gone from the world of Christianity,” but a school of people with Christians in it, may not be.”
I’m not sure what you are getting at. Certainly there are still some believing Christians who attend Episcopal churches. That makes the believers Christian. Not the Episcopal church. But then, “the Church” is the believers. So while formal organizations may come and go from Christianity, the Church will last until the end.
I grew up Episcopalian. My parents were saved as Episcopalians during the charismatic revival in Colorado in the 70’s. But today, I see no reason to honor the formal organization with the title “Christian”, when it has done it’s utmost to leave the world of Christianity—in my opinion, successfully.
On matters not subject to disputation, Jesus and the Apostles drew pretty clear lines. The Episcopalians stepped over a pretty clear line. OTOH, I’m not going to get into it with Presbyterians over predestination. But then, the Bible does not expressly forbid belief in predestination.
You're right. I left the Presbyterian Church USA 12 years ago because it seemed like the democrat party had taken over the denomination at the highest levels.
“Did that really happen? I knew the UMC folks were way out there, but usually I would not have expected them to be so blatant.”
I went to a PCUSA service where the subject of the sermon was: “Jesus came to the world to bring gay marriage to the world.” Not subtle at all.
Would those deceased mainline Protestants have had to ask that question? Times have changed...
Touché!
Exactly! mainline/mainstream=liberal
He believes it. He said it. At least we know where he stands.
BO made derisive remarks about bitter clingers to guns and religion. He believes it. He said it. At least we know where he stands.
W/r/t Santorum’s comments, Richard John Neuhaus used to make nearly identical comments about the mainline churches. He also wrote disparagingly about the Jesuit order, and Lefty-overrun institutions wherever he found them.
Santorum’s opinion can be best viewed as a conservative’s about liberals, rather than a Catholic’s about protestants.
IMHO Liberal Christianity follows the NYT’s editors more devotedly than it does Jesus Christ. While it may be impolitic to point it out—even in a closed, insular audience—it’s his right.
I don’t think protestants, or anyone, have anything to fear from a Santorum presidency. He’ll have to make that case for himself, however. And, I hope he can. We can all help by demanding that BO explain what he means about the bitter clingers, the teabaggers, etc.
We all have a great deal to fear from another four years of an Obama presidency. So, I hope we’re all prepared to give Santorum the benefit of the doubt.
Go Branson it is the heart of the city and draws crowds of tourists from all over the nation. Most are protestant Maybe Santorum is jealous because the protestants have better gospel music than the Catholics:)
Individual congregations, maybe; but not the national mainline organizations that siphon off the local donations to support heresies and liberation-theological events.
Well fortunately, the Big Christian Himself, Jesus Christ, is quite likely to forgive Catholics (and those who support the Church built on Peter) for this interpretation of faith, just in case it turns out to be wrong ..
Which one? I don't know of any mainline Protestant denomination that is pro-life. I tried to find one 12 years ago when I left the Presbyterian Church USA. The PCUSA not only is pro-choice, but they gives abortion coverage to pastors and their families.
Arrgh...
I know that the UMC, PC-USA, and many of the Anglican and Episcopalian (who can ever forget "Bishop" Spong) are apostate ... but throwing the Bible on the ground and scoffing at it, or stating that "Jesus came to the world to bring gay marriage to the world" - that is 'Jesus came into the world not to save sinners but to celebrate sin'... is enough to make a skunk vomit.
I know we were warned, but there seems to be a plague of wolves dressed in sheep clothing in this land...
I agree with you. Santorum was surely referring to the liberal pro-abortion marriage-destroying mainline Protestants. He was not talking about conservative evangelicals who strong support him and his conservative pro-life views,
Unfortunately, Catholics don't support Santorum, he has lost them in every primary, and for reelection in 2006, he only won 39% of the Catholic vote.
I think you meant to reply to a different post. You didn’t quote me.
What you quoted from my post was what I was quoting from silverleaf in post 70.
—Well fortunately, the Big Christian Himself, Jesus Christ,—
Not to pick nits, but Jesus is not a Christian. He is the “object” of Christianity.
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