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GEORGE ZIMMERMAN AND TRAYVON MARTIN: WHAT WE DONíT KNOW
Backwoods Home Magazine ^ | March 23, 2012 | Massad Ayoob

Posted on 03/24/2012 8:47:14 AM PDT by Travis McGee

(Snip) The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET. Both men, according to initial reports, were “squeaky clean” in terms of their background. We now know, meh, not so much. There were allegations of domestic abuse against Zimmerman, and a conviction for resisting arrest, in his past. Young Mr. Martin was in the complex in the first place so his dad could straighten him out after being kicked out of school for a week…for what, we don’t know. Pundits who don’t all seem to understand the concept are tying this shooting in to Florida’s Stand Your Ground law much more than they should. There is conflicting evidence/testimony as to whether Martin approached Zimmerman or vice versa in the penultimate moments before the physical fight that led to the fatal shot. There is, in short, not yet enough information for any of us outside the investigation to formulate a solid opinion.

(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...


TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: georgezimmerman; richardjewel; standyourground; trayvon; trayvonmarin; zimmerman
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Mas Ayoob is one of the country's foremost authorities on legal vs illegal shootings. He is probably the #1 legal expert on this topic, and is frequently called as an expert witness in trials of this nature.
1 posted on 03/24/2012 8:47:20 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Eaker; Absolutely Nobama; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; APatientMan; ApesForEvolution; ..

Interesting info here on the pistol. The only round fired was the round in the chamber. The pistol did not chamber the 2nd round, perhaps because it was at such close range that the men were fighting over it, and it was out of battery after the first (and only) shot.


2 posted on 03/24/2012 8:49:08 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Eaker; Absolutely Nobama; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; APatientMan; ApesForEvolution; ..

Interesting info here on the pistol. The only round fired was the round in the chamber. The pistol did not chamber the 2nd round, perhaps because it was at such close range that the men were fighting over it, and it was out of battery after the first (and only) shot.


3 posted on 03/24/2012 8:49:25 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee
Ayoob:

My advice? Let’s all “stand our ground,” not participate in the rush to judgment, and wait for the facts and the evidence to become available to us 300 million jurors in the Court of Public Opinion.

Smart man. Smarter than Obama. Smarter than Santorum.

4 posted on 03/24/2012 8:53:58 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Blacks get shot every day. What makes Trayvon so special? Democrat hype.)
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To: Travis McGee

How does the author know this info? Is he working this case?


5 posted on 03/24/2012 8:54:44 AM PDT by goseminoles
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To: Travis McGee

Might want to check the link, weird, sent me to a pic of a white dot


6 posted on 03/24/2012 8:56:35 AM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Travis McGee

I hope this comes to trial so there can be a full investigation and public disclosure of the facts. The public deserves this. Both families deserve this. Zimmerman himself deserves either to formally acquitted of guilt, or convicted, as the facts may warrant.


7 posted on 03/24/2012 8:57:01 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Justice and judgment are the foundation of His throne.")
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To: Travis McGee

There is a report that Zimmerman had actually quit following Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin advanced to him. This would be a game changer if true. The other thing not reported much is that while the media uses the most innocent looking pictures of Martin, they don’t report that he was 6’2” and much bigger than Zimmerman.


8 posted on 03/24/2012 9:00:53 AM PDT by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: GeronL

I just got a blank black page.


9 posted on 03/24/2012 9:02:48 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
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To: goseminoles

“for any of us outside the investigation to formulate a solid opinion”.


10 posted on 03/24/2012 9:06:39 AM PDT by whatexit
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To: Travis McGee
a 17 year old suspended from school for 5 days (!?) is not ‘squeaky clean

If any of my children were suspended from school for 5 days (!?) they would NOT be out walking around going to the store for skittles they would probvably be home still nursing a sore butt...

11 posted on 03/24/2012 9:06:42 AM PDT by Mr. K (If Romney wins the primary, I am writing-in PALIN)
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To: GeronL

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/


12 posted on 03/24/2012 9:07:18 AM PDT by whatexit
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To: goseminoles
How does the author know this info? Is he working this case?

Ayoob has lots of connections with law-enforcement agencies around the country. Even if this is "grapevine" info, it's probably accurate.

13 posted on 03/24/2012 9:07:25 AM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: goseminoles

Ayoob is or was a cop. He might have inside connections for info. I am a bit surprised he made the comment about possible drugs unless he had some reason to think it might be so.

Basically he is saying wait until all the info comes out before making judgement.

He did notice something which several of us also commented on earlier, that the mag was still full. It could be nothing more than the mag had been slightly unseated which has happened to me just from not paying attention but it could be important too.


14 posted on 03/24/2012 9:09:01 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: Mr. K

Suspensions are nothing in public school these days. You can get suspended for drawing a gun in school or bringing aspirin.


15 posted on 03/24/2012 9:12:59 AM PDT by Theoria (Rush Limbaugh: Ron Paul sounds like an Islamic terrorist)
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To: Travis McGee
1). If he had a full clip, then he was walking around with a chambered round. That is a dangerous thing to do and is greatly discouraged.

2). If he was inexperienced enough to walk around with a chambered round, then maybe he also didn't take good care of his sidearm and it just didn't work and re-chamber.

16 posted on 03/24/2012 9:24:10 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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To: FreeAtlanta

I never walk around with a gun in any other condition than with a round in the chamber. Nearly all modern guns have a safety mechanism other than the manual safety.

Some such as the Glock have no other type safety than internal ones which are de-activated by pulling the trigger. This is generally perfectly safe. It is also the way the guns were designed to be carried.


17 posted on 03/24/2012 9:28:30 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: whatexit
My advice to YOU if YOU’RE ever involved in a shooting: request to be taken to a hospital to have a blood sample and toxicology screen taken. A “negative for everything” result will prevent false allegations later that you were drunk or drugged-up when you pulled the trigger.

DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!!

In the state of Missouri if you are "intoxicated" you are busted! That means if you have .0001% of alcohol in your blood you are in trouble.

You never talk to the police or provide them one piece of evidence that they CAN USE AGAINST YOU!!

18 posted on 03/24/2012 9:29:21 AM PDT by missnry (The truth will set you free ... and drive liberals Crazy!)
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To: FreeAtlanta

Do you actually know anything about firearms?


19 posted on 03/24/2012 9:31:00 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
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To: goseminoles

The author is the country’s #1 self-defense shooting expert. He is in court as an expert witness on a routine basis in cases just like this, and has been for over 30 years. I’m sure he is gleaning every fact he can, and I would be shocked and amazed if he is not called as an expert by the defense, if Zimmerman is indicted and goes to trial.


20 posted on 03/24/2012 9:31:07 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: FreeAtlanta
1). If he had a full clip, then he was walking around with a chambered round. That is a dangerous thing to do and is greatly discouraged.

Oh come on! You can't be serious!?!

Most CCW holders carry chambered. I know I do.

21 posted on 03/24/2012 9:31:57 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

It will go to trail and even if he is aquitted, he’ll be charged by the feds with a civil rights violation and/or sued in civil court and the kkids family will be awarded MILLIONS of dollars.

Zimmerman should have learned Krav Maga and he wouldn’t have needed a gun, he could have knocked the kid out before the kid knew what happened.


22 posted on 03/24/2012 9:32:53 AM PDT by Chainsawj
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To: FreeAtlanta

“Walking around” with a chambered round is NOT dangerous, if you have any clue about what you are doing, and is NOT greatly discouraged except perhaps by someone who doesn’t have a clue what they are talking about.

If you are carrying a weapon for defensive purposes the last thing you would want to assume is that a murderous assailant is graciously going to give you the time to chamber a round.


23 posted on 03/24/2012 9:33:28 AM PDT by Fightin Whitey
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To: umgud

I have read elsewhere that 6’2” Trayong Martin was a 140# bean pole, and Zimmerman outweighed him by almost 100#. So I don’t know about that. It’s all speculation at this point.

The other point is the Grand Jury is not only going to look at the last 10 or 30 seconds prior to the shooting, but the entire event, beginning even before the first 911 call.

A good SD case can be sabotaged by the shooter’s actions long before the shooting.


24 posted on 03/24/2012 9:33:28 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Mr. K

I thought Trayvon was on the way back from choir practice.

/sarc

It’s routing for all sides to exaggerate at this point. According to some, Trayvon was a “hulking” 6’2” footballer, and elsewhere that he was a 140# human beanpole. We don’t know much at this point.


25 posted on 03/24/2012 9:35:14 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee

routing s/b routine


26 posted on 03/24/2012 9:35:41 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: FreeAtlanta

No. I own that pistol, and it has a long DAO trigger pull, like a stiff revolver. It’s perfectly safe with a round chambered, and takes about a 12# pull over more than an inch.

Two: if the pistol simply “jammed” on the second shot, a round would have at least partially left the magazine. The report says one round was fired, and the mag was still full, indicating it was out of battery by being grabbed. If not, the 2nd round would have either chambered, or jammed before chambering, but it would not still be in the magazine.


27 posted on 03/24/2012 9:38:20 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: 101stAirborneVet

Just the NRA safety handgun safety course where it was greatly discouraged to have a round chambered, but if you being a god of firearms say it is ok, then I will submit.

The reasoning sounded sound enough for me, but by all means, you trust the safety. I will just make the nice sounding (music to my ears) sound of chambering the round when it might be needed. To each his own.


28 posted on 03/24/2012 9:38:42 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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To: FreeAtlanta

You obviously do not know what you are talking about. You are either ignorant or pushing a anti 2nd amend. Agenda. No one advocates CCW carry unchambered. Furthermore, Every CCW course teaches that IF you take on the responsibility of carrying, you should carry fully loaded and ready to deploy. Carrying in such a way does not indicate inexperience nor can an inference as to maintenance be drawn from it. Carrying with A round in the chamber is neither dangerous nor discouraged. In fact, it is more dangerous to carry unchambered.


29 posted on 03/24/2012 9:38:53 AM PDT by 1malumprohibitum
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To: FreeAtlanta
If he had a full clip, then he was walking around with a chambered round. That is a dangerous thing to do and is greatly discouraged.

I guess you've never heard of "cocked and locked." It's a common carry mode with certain models of handgun.

30 posted on 03/24/2012 9:41:34 AM PDT by Oberon (Big Brutha Be Watchin'.)
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To: FreeAtlanta

It appears you are mixing handgun safety and CCW. They are completely different things. While the NRA may advocate unchambered for storage/in the home, carrying for defense is another thing altogether. Again, ALL CCW training and all self defense training advocate Carrying fully loaded and chambered.


31 posted on 03/24/2012 9:44:33 AM PDT by 1malumprohibitum
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To: FreeAtlanta

I don’t think I am a God of handgun safety, only a minor demi-god but I am a certified firearms instructor and a hunter-safety instructor.

My certifications are by the NRA and by a Southern State. If your instructor told you that, you need to get another one.

To be completely honest, I have retired and not kept up my certifications so I am technically no longer an instructor but I haven’t forgotten everything either.


32 posted on 03/24/2012 9:44:40 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: Travis McGee

I would love to see a current photo of him and a clarification of his weight. Will that be part of an autopsy report, and will it be made public?

Anyway, in the dark with someone 6’2 or 6’3”, with hoody and on top of me, I think I would have to pull the trigger, too. Zimmerman didn’t know that Trayvon was unarmed. He could have had a knife, gun, or could have hurt him in any numerous ways. If Trayvon laid hands on Zimmerman first, then the case should be closed.

A voice analysis of the 911 call might be enough to vindicate or convict Zimmerman.


33 posted on 03/24/2012 9:45:10 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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To: FreeAtlanta
Just the NRA safety handgun safety course where it was greatly discouraged to have a round chambered, but if you being a god of firearms say it is ok, then I will submit.

I am a god of nothing. But I did spend 7 years in the Army and 20 years as a DC cop. When you have to draw a pistol for self defense, it's already too late to chamber a round. That is, if you're pulling it because your life is in danger, which is the only time you ought to be pulling it.

Get what I mean? If you're drawing your pistol, you best be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury. In such a case, do you want to risk having to work the slide before you can fire?

34 posted on 03/24/2012 9:46:20 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: FreeAtlanta

It sounds like one of your “instructors” is Hollywood. I hope you never have to use what you know, as waiting til you need it to chamber it is at least one and behind your back. That necessary delay could cost you or someone you need to protect their life.


36 posted on 03/24/2012 9:50:08 AM PDT by 1malumprohibitum
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To: Oberon

How many people actually put a round in the chamber then pull the clip, add another to the clip, and then reclip it?

I am sure some do, but it seems odd.

BTW, why would a guy with a gun (other than Police) tackle another person? It seems most likely that Trayvon physically engaged Zimmerman.

This whole situation seems to be almost made to order for Obama and the summer of protests that his campaign wants. I say almost, because Zimmerman turns out to be Hispanic and not White. Can Obama afford to loose the Hispanic vote by siding with Holder’s People?


37 posted on 03/24/2012 9:50:38 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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To: FreeAtlanta
How many people actually put a round in the chamber then pull the clip, add another to the clip, and then reclip it?

I don't know about everybody, but I sure do.

God forbid, I might need that last shot.

38 posted on 03/24/2012 9:52:25 AM PDT by Oberon (Big Brutha Be Watchin'.)
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To: Travis McGee
This article was posted earlier but has now been updated.

Update: Turns out that the Trayvon Martin Facebook page mentioned here last night was the wrong Trayvon Martin; that has been deleted with my apologies, and thanks to those who flagged me to the error. Also, HuffPost reports that Trayvon had been suspended for chronic truancy, but another source notes that his school’s posted rules do not prescribe that length of suspension for that minor an offense. Meanwhile, the college George Zimmerman had been attending has suspended HIM, due to the current controversy.

39 posted on 03/24/2012 9:52:35 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: FreeAtlanta
1). If he had a full clip, then he was walking around with a chambered round. That is a dangerous thing to do and is greatly discouraged.

Wow. That statement deserves the...


40 posted on 03/24/2012 9:55:26 AM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: FreeAtlanta

I sometimes top mine up and sometimes don’t. It is probably better for the mag not to keep it 100% loaded but I figure at my age, my Grandchildren can worry about spring tension.

I have a couple of Argentine made mags for the Browning Hi-Power and they have such a heavy spring that I purposely keep them topped up hoping to loosen that spring tension. So far it hasn’t worked.


41 posted on 03/24/2012 9:55:52 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: 1malumprohibitum

Come on, how long does it take to chamber a round? The moment I hear something and I go to get out of bed, the round is chambered.

If I am walking around my property, the round is chambered.

My question with the Zimmerman situation - if he really had a full mag - is why have the round in the chamber and a full mag? Wouldn’t, under most situations, you have one less round in the mag?

To each his own. I always handle my weapons like they have a chambered round, but I don’t keep one in the chamber. It is my preference. When I have a reason to think I might have to shoot, I chamber. Hopefully, I will never get in a gunslinger street fight like in the old west. Even chambered, I doubt I would have a chance.


42 posted on 03/24/2012 9:55:54 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Travis McGee
The report says one round was fired, and the mag was still full, indicating it was out of battery by being grabbed. If not, the 2nd round would have either chambered, or jammed before chambering, but it would not still be in the magazine.

This reminds me of why I bought a revolver recently. It can be fired through a pocket more than once (no hammer). Good enough for close range. I can put the pocket out (it'll likely at least be smoldering) after I have handled any more serious threat.

You just can't do that with a semi-auto without expecting a jam, either from failure to cycle due to interference from the material or the spent cartridge case failing to eject fully.

Was Zimmerman wearing a jacket? (Night time and chilly), and was the pistol in the pocket instead of a more conventional holster?

Still too little info.

44 posted on 03/24/2012 9:56:54 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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To: FreeAtlanta
1). If he had a full clip, then he was walking around with a chambered round. That is a dangerous thing to do and is greatly discouraged.

You've got a major disconnect between your "if" and "then."
45 posted on 03/24/2012 9:58:02 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: FreeAtlanta
Come on, how long does it take to chamber a round?

If you're in the middle of being physically attacked, way too long. And, if you're being attacked, you may not have both hands free to even do it.

Use of force scenarios aren't all cozy like on TV, where the homeowner wakes to a noise in the kitchen. Sometimes people wake up to a hand closing around their neck.

46 posted on 03/24/2012 9:59:01 AM PDT by 101stAirborneVet
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To: FreeAtlanta
A voice analysis of the 911 call might be enough to vindicate or convict Zimmerman.

I agree.

47 posted on 03/24/2012 10:00:48 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: FreeAtlanta
I will just make the nice sounding (music to my ears) sound of chambering the round when it might be needed.

Just like in the movies...

48 posted on 03/24/2012 10:00:58 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: arbooz

That’s why Mas Ayoob is THE ‘go to guy’ for SD court cases.

It just occured to me that he must have written something about the Zimmerman/Trayvon case.


49 posted on 03/24/2012 10:02:15 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Oberon

I keep a second clip, but hopefully I will never need the first one.

I understand where a lot of you are coming from, but it isn’t me. I am not going to store or even carry with a round chambered in an automatic. Revolvers with cock-able hammer are ok for me. As for chambered automatics, I just don’t trust mechanical devises that much.


50 posted on 03/24/2012 10:02:49 AM PDT by FreeAtlanta (Liberty and Justice for ALL)
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