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Is It A Sin To Vote For Mitt Romney?
Free Republic | Today | ME

Posted on 05/11/2012 6:10:55 PM PDT by Manic_Episode

Is it a sin to vote for Mitt Romney?

Well first off if you're not a Christian don't bother reading any further. This does not apply to you and your comments/scoffs) are not solicited. Leave now.

For those of you who are saved by the blood of The Lamb and are disciples of The Lord Jesus Christ I would ask you to consider the following:

Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System

Here in the USA when we run afoul of the law we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

In Gods system we are guilty until proven innocent,

Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (emphasis mine)

ALL have sinned. Not some, not my neighbor, but ME and YOU. ALL. We are guilty, you and I.

In the criminal justice system of the United States the punishment has to fit the crime. In many countries around the world today Sharia Law requires that a thief's hand be cut off if caught for stealing. This seems harsh and brutal compared to the offense. We have the death penalty here in the USA but you have to do something really bad to be sentenced to die.

In Gods criminal justice system we are all guilty and sentenced to death. Done deal. It has already happened whether you know it or not:

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death,"

So we all have sinned and the wage of that sin is death. Does the penalty fit the crime? Is this fair and just?

Absolutely! God is all about justice, kindness and righteousness.

Jeremiah 9:24

24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

So under Gods criminal justice system one can incur the death penalty for lying? That is just? The punishment fits the crime?

Yes. First of all, I, for one, have committed WAY more than just tell a fib. After all, sin is breaking one of the Ten Commandments. I am a serial offender. I am a sinner. No two ways around it. When it comes to keeping Gods commands I am a complete failure. I am bankrupt.

Understand that Gods Holiness is so great and awesome and unfathomable that it cannot be defiled by our sin and justice DEMANDS that sin be cast out of Gods presence.

The best we can come up with, our very best efforts we can muster when we try as hard as we possibly can, God refers to these as "filthy rags",

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

The literal translation of "filthy rags" is even worse than it sounds. Try "menstruous rags" on for size. Ok, some of you are trying them on for size in real life, you know what I'm talking about. Gross.

Our best works are disgusting to God. More of Gods so called justice? Yes, when you understand His holy nature, yes indeed.

Interesting thing about Gods Justice system; He is quite reasonable in that He sets a certain price for our penalty and accepts that price from whoever can afford it.

That price is our very life, but if someone could afford to pay it off for us God would accept it.

It is such a high price that I could not afford to pay for my kids penalty because I am in debt for my own sin, but what if someone came along who could afford to pay my dept? Someone who had not incurred their own death penalty. Someone who was sinless and loved me enough to pay for my sin with their innocent life? God would and does accept that payment.

This is Gods criminal justice system: John 3:16

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-12

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Jesus, I accept you as my Savior and my Lord. Thank you for loving me and for paying my way. I am in your debt forever.

===========================================================================

Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System Part 2

Here in the US someone can be convicted of murder without ever having actually killed anyone, but because they were "in on it" they are guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

In order to be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder a prosecutor must prove 3 elements to gain a conviction.

1.) The defendant intended to agree and did agree with someone to commit murder;

2.) At the time of the agreement, the defendant and [one or more of] the other alleged member[s] of the conspiracy intended that one or more of them would commit murder;

3.) (The/One of the) defendant[s] of coparticipant[s] or (both/ all) of them] committed [at least one of] the overt act[s] alleged to accomplish the murder;

Examples of this crime would be hiring a hitman. The person paying for the murder is just as guilty as the hitman.

Charles Manson claims he never killed anyone but he has been in prison for nearly 40 years for conspiracy.

WHEN SYSTEMS COLLIDE

Abortion is a perfectly legal murder in mans criminal justice system, but I submit that in Gods criminal justice system it is a sin of the most heinous sort, one that brutally ends the life of our most vulnerable and innocent members to the tune of a staggering 54 MILLION VICTIMS in the US alone, and counting.

Those directly responsible are quite obvious, but what of the coparticipants? Those that have conspired against these 54 million vulnerable innocent crime victims? It takes a massively wide conspiracy of unbelievable proportions to accomplish a crime of this unfathomable magnitude.

I submit that all those who keep this sin legal are just as guilty as those who are direct participants.

Abortion is a main plank of the Democratic platform. When you vote for a party you are putting your seal of approval on that platform. You are agreeing and supporting their goals when you cast your vote for their party.

You cannot say you disagree with their main plank yet support that main plank with your vote. This is contradictory. They are not hiding this plank so your vote is cast with open eyes knowing this.

We as human beings are amazing in our ability to justify our actions and if we are creative enough we can justify anything, including conspiring to murder 54 million vulnerable and innocent lives.

You have blood on your hands.

The excuses come fast and easy but there is no excuse for sin. None. We must take responsibility for our own sins and yes, I am absolutely saying that voting for a party that openly supports sin is enabling that sin and participating in that sin and sinning right along with that sin.

The creative justification part of us will immediately start pointing fingers at all sorts of things trying to muddy the waters, but what can possibly top 54 MILLION SENSELESS MURDERS OF THE VULNERABLE AND INNOCENT!!?? NOTHING!!

Not war, not compassion for the poor, not social policy, not fiscal policy. Nothing. This slaughter on our own soil makes the Holocaust look like childs play in comparison.

So in sheer body count alone there is no more important thing we should be voting for above this.

=====================================================

I wrote these a few years ago and would add the following thoughts:

Mitt Romney, despite his shallow words to the contrary, has a clear record of supporting abortion (not to mention homosexuality, forced health care, global warming, anti gun legislation, liberal judges, etc etc) and as such I believe I would become a co-participant in conspiracy to commit murder if I were to support him with my vote to lead our country.

I also believe what is a sin for one man may not be a sin for another based on my understanding of this passage:

Romans 14:23

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

This passage explains that if you think it is a sin then for you it is indeed a sin whether is really is a sin or not, and for others of stronger faith it is not a sin.

As I explained in my now long winded article I believe voting for someone pro choice is a sin for me, I would then ask this:

BASED ON SCRIPTURE AND REASON, how could I believe otherwise?

Don't equivocate that the survival of our country depends on Mitt winning because Obama is the boogieman.

I want to know where the flaws in my reasoning may be.

If you are a Christian and believe otherwise, how did you come to your conclusion based on scripture and reason?


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To: Manic_Episode

If anything, it should be a sin if you vote for Obama a second time, or if this would be your first time.


151 posted on 05/12/2012 8:52:44 AM PDT by b4its2late (A Liberal is a person who will give away everything he doesn't own.)
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To: DannyTN
Just like everything that happens is not God's will. It's never God's will that people sin, but they do. It's never God's will that people reject him and die in their ins, and thus face the second death, but they do.

Well, yes, good points. I guess I didn't get that across, but I think I was more less aimed for that very first sentence, and kind of botched it.
152 posted on 05/12/2012 8:55:36 AM PDT by Thorliveshere
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To: presidio9
"This is covered in like the first class of Statistics 101. I guess the three of you missed that class.."

Thanks for your patience and understanding with the rest of us!

Because of your insight, I now realize that [statistically speaking] every time I choose a 7-up, instead of a Pepsi, I am voting for Coke!

I never knew! Shazam!!!

You might like to review this book at Amazon...

You also may want to review the following information to take your understanding of American elections even farther. I believe you will be amazed when you come to understand this on a deeper level!

Let me Google that for you!

153 posted on 05/12/2012 9:11:48 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Manic_Episode

That Advocate does not argue to the Judge the existence or absence of sin. Is God the Father omniscient or is He not? That Advocate says, “Even though...”


154 posted on 05/12/2012 9:17:25 AM PDT by arthurus ( Read Henry hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; presidio9; Revel; MHGinTN
Excellent response, AMPU but I usually vote for Coke by drinking Squirt.
155 posted on 05/12/2012 12:22:30 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Do you believe this Republic will survive another four years of the little barry bastard commie and his gaggle of thuggish goons? Do you think Romney and Obama would appoitn the same judges to the SCOTUS?


156 posted on 05/12/2012 12:28:49 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Do you believe this Republic will survive another four years of the little barry bastard commie and his gaggle of thuggish goons? Do you think Romney and Obama would appoitn the same judges to the SCOTUS?

BTW, the analogy presented by presidio is valid if you were comparing the purchases of Coke with other soft drinks of similar nature, with a given background purchasing populace who will choose either coke or any other soft drink. Ridiculing an analogy because you don't like the stark truth contained therein is an alinsky tactic, if you didn't know already.

157 posted on 05/12/2012 12:31:53 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: MHGinTN; presidio9
BTW, the analogy presented by presidio is valid if you were comparing the purchases of Coke with other soft drinks of similar nature, with a given background purchasing populace who will choose either coke or any other soft drink. Ridiculing an analogy because you don't like the stark truth contained therein is an alinsky tactic, if you didn't know already.

Valid? I believe that the example violates both the category fallacy and the proportions fallacy. Besides, as AMPU points out, it is irrelevant because it is the electoral votes, not the popular vote, which determine the outcome. In my state, my refusal to vote for Romney would have to be multiplied by 500,000 times to possibly make any difference.

Do you have any positive reasons to vote for Romney? Frankly, the Chicken Little routine is getting tiresome. I am only slightly more concerned about what Obama might do to the country than what Romney would do to this nation and to the conservative movement. Not enough, however, to soil my hands by voting for Romney.

158 posted on 05/12/2012 1:22:23 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: CommerceComet
And once again the alinsky ridicule tactics surface from another direction. What you so asshattingly call a chicken little routine is in fact the imminent death of the AMERICAN REPUBLIC some of us see coming if little barry bastard commie is allowed to rule for four more years.

It has yet to sink into your smarmy brain that there will be no ‘conservative movement’ if Barry succeeds in his plans to terminate the Republic. So go suck an egg, brainiac. The rational adults will try to save the Republic by incremental steps, beginning with getting rid of little barry bastard commie come January 2013. Dragging Milt Rominy (rhymes with hominy, the tasteless corn product) to the right is to follow shortly after ridding the nation of the commie infestation and Eric 'the raddish' Holder.

159 posted on 05/12/2012 4:15:44 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: af_vet_rr
Some day you may even be judged by a higher authority for supporting a man who pushed $50 abortions not even a decade ago. The defense that the other pro-abortion candidate is worse because he has a (D) next to his name will not matter. You will be judged for who you support.

By your logic, it's going to be a sin to vote unless you want to write your pastor in for prez.

It ain't like we were talking about splitting the baby here;
We're talking about voting for someone we dislike and disagree with - who we have a chance of influencing - versus one we like less, disagree with (far) more and have absolutely NO influence over:
Or tossing a vote into the hopper because you don't want to play.

Your choice.

PS: I think God pays more attention to my deeds and my motives than for any difficult decisions I might have to make in order to "render unto Cesar".

PPS: Haven't been able to vote yet?
(I voted for Santorum...we could have used your help.)
Got anything planned between now and November?

160 posted on 05/12/2012 6:00:37 PM PDT by norton
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To: Manic_Episode

You are right. Ignore the foolish and the damned.


161 posted on 05/12/2012 6:11:00 PM PDT by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: MHGinTN

Dear FRiend MHGinTN...

Thanks for taking a moment to share your thoughts. You asked some questions and I will attempt to answer them because you are a friend.

“Do you believe this Republic will survive another four years of the little barry bastard commie and his gaggle of thuggish goons?”
“Do you think Romney and Obama would appoint the same judges to the SCOTUS?”

I believe America, like Gulliver, has reached a point where it is tied down with millions of threads. It is an empire in decline. Liberty has declined steadily during the past 30 years - after electing both Republican and Democrat Presidents. People are no longer free in their persons, their property, their liberties, their privacy or in the promise America once held so strongly. The center of the world of financial capital has shifted overseas. There are now more IPOs in Hong Kong than in America and London combined. Capital follows freedom.

Please do not miss that every POTUS is to blame - and more importantly, Congress is to blame, regardless of party. They are ALL guilty.

If Republicans were conservatives with balls, we could easily survive Obama or RINOmney. Unfortunately, republicans are neutered and can only sing soprano now. They happily sing in harmony with Democrats to gut conservatism. Unless they can grow a pair or we can replace the Republican Eunuchs with vigorous, virile and potent conservatives, not a thing will change.

Frankly, FRiend, I do not believe conservatives understand the full impact of what has happened to the country. They seem to believe that if we just lower taxes, the financial woes of the USA will disappear. They seem to believe, if we just win the Presidency and appoint some good judges, all will resume as it was during the years we grew up. I no longer believe EITHER of the current candidates can change the direction of the ship.

So to answer your question in a word, sure, the country will survive temporarily. Can we survive RINOmney? Sure, we can survive him temporarily. Neither will make the changes that will last and keep us from furthering the decline. Neither has the courage or conviction.

“BTW, the analogy presented by presidio is valid if you were comparing the purchases of Coke with other soft drinks of similar nature, with a given background purchasing populace who will choose either coke or any other soft drink. “

I don’t think the analogy was logically valid at all. I answered the post according to its folly. If by taking away a vote from the total makes it require one fewer vote for Zero to be elected, then taking away a vote also makes it require one fewer vote to elect RINOmney.

I suggest this is more realistic:

Three scenarios may occur:

1. Zero landslide - my vote doesn’t matter, and frankly, yours doesn’t either.
2. RINOmney landslide - my vote doesn’t matter, and frankly, yours doesn’t either.
3. EXTREMELY close election - my vote won’t change the outcome, unless my vote be located in a state that provides the required Electoral College votes needed to win. Unlikely, and I’m in a blue state anyway. If you are in a very close state, then maybe yours will be the “vote that counts”. It is, however extremely unlikely that your individual vote will be the vote that turns your state. My state had over 6 million voters in 2008.

My voting and efforts in giving can, however, impact some down-ticket races and money can impact far away conservative races.

In the end, I am going to follow my own conscience with my own vote, seeking to elect conservatives. I don’t intend to tell anyone else to how to vote and I smile when they try to tell me how to vote.

blessings,
ampu


162 posted on 05/12/2012 6:43:19 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: MHGinTN
And once again the alinsky ridicule tactics surface from another direction. What you so asshattingly call a chicken little routine is in fact the imminent death of the AMERICAN REPUBLIC some of us see coming if little barry bastard commie is allowed to rule for four more years. It has yet to sink into your smarmy brain that there will be no ‘conservative movement’ if Barry succeeds in his plans to terminate the Republic. So go suck an egg, brainiac. The rational adults will try to save the Republic by incremental steps, beginning with getting rid of little barry bastard commie come January 2013. Dragging Milt Rominy (rhymes with hominy, the tasteless corn product) to the right is to follow shortly after ridding the nation of the commie infestation and Eric 'the raddish' Holder.

Rational adult? Yeah, that's really on display. (/sarcasm)

163 posted on 05/12/2012 7:54:47 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: norton
We're talking about voting for someone we dislike and disagree with - who we have a chance of influencing

We may disagree, but I thank you for giving me a good chuckle, since I know you didn't type that out with a straight face.

PPS: Haven't been able to vote yet?

I still have over two weeks to go before being able to vote in a primary.
164 posted on 05/12/2012 8:15:10 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: CommerceComet

CommerceComet wrote:
“However, there is a difference between someone who isn’t a friend of the cross and someone who is an enemy of the cross.”

I see. Jesus notwithstanding? “He who isn’t with Me is against Me.” Your categories are just that, your categories.

As far as the hostility of the Mormons go, yes, I’m quite convinced of it. I have read a great deal of Mormon literature, that is, what their leaders have written in the last hundred and a half years or so, spent quite a lot of time in Utah, and know quite a few of them. Hence my characterization of Mormonism as neo-pagan and post-Christian.

However, voting for president is not about who is a Christian and who is not. It is about who will govern according to the Constitution, follow the law, and not go against natural law/conscience. Jimmy Carter claimed to be a Christian. He even taught “Sunday School” regularly. Yet he was a disaster as president. If we get both a Christian and one who governs by the Constitution, then, yes of course, that would be the best.

Mitt Romney was my last choice (except for Ron Paul). Nevertheless he is not as bad as Obama. That is my analysis. It is far from a hearty endorsement. But that, for me, is the bottom line.

Two things are true: First, a vote for some other third party candidate at this point in history or a non-vote is a half-vote for Obama. I will not give Obama a half-vote. He acts contrary to the Constitution and the principles on which this nation was founded. Obama must go. Second, a Republican president, however lacking in conservative principles, can be pressured by conservatives into doing the right thing. Obama cannot be. Obama must go.


165 posted on 05/12/2012 8:31:27 PM PDT by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: presidio9; MHGinTN; CommerceComet

“This is covered in like the first class of Statistics 101.”

Must be that new math the kids are learning. No wonder they can’t get anything right.

You don’t get it. You can reverse and apply your whole argument to Romney. It would be just as valid or invalid. Therefore, according to your argument then Romney would come out the winner. Your whole argument is therefore, nonsense.

Now I don’t want either of them. So if I vote for neither of them then it is a vote for Ron Paul even if I don’t pull the lever for Ron Paul. Not that Ron Paul is so great either. And I am not saying I am voting for him, But if I pull the lever for him then something really incredible happens. I get to cast two votes for Ron Paul. The one I cast by not voting for Romney or Obama. And the one I cast by pulling Ron Paul’s lever.

Now that is pretty cool. Maybe your math is useful after all.


166 posted on 05/12/2012 9:16:31 PM PDT by Revel
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To: Belteshazzar; Revel
I see. Jesus notwithstanding? “He who isn’t with Me is against Me.” Your categories are just that, your categories.

Maybe you don't see. Jesus also said "he who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:40) Which principle to use obviously depends on the context. You seem to agree that Mormonism is opposed to true Christianity and since Mitt is a true believer, he would fit in the "he who isn't with me" rather than "he who is not against us". Maybe they are my categories but I believe they have Biblical support - sometimes neutrality is an issue, sometimes it's not. I'm still waiting for the compelling Biblical argument that it is okay to vote for an enemy of the Cross to such a high position of power and influence.

However, voting for president is not about who is a Christian and who is not.

I think that you're arguing in circles. I have already stated that I don't require theological purity in the candidates. That's what started the whole "enemies of the cross" discussion.

First, a vote for some other third party candidate at this point in history or a non-vote is a half-vote for Obama.

A non-vote for Romney is not a vote for Obama. As Revel points out, if that argument is true, I'm also giving Romney half a vote by withholding my vote from Obama, so they cancel out.

Second, a Republican president, however lacking in conservative principles, can be pressured by conservatives into doing the right thing.

You mean just like George W. Bush? Dubya was far more conservative than Romney. If the Republicans in Congress won't fight the unpopular President from the other party, what makes you think that they'll stand up to a President of their own party? The GOP-e is going to be pressuring the Republicans in Congress to go along with the President because "we can't afford to have a failed Republican Presidency." I'm very skeptical that Mitt Romney can be pulled right when his every instinct is liberal.

167 posted on 05/12/2012 10:11:49 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: af_vet_rr
Did I misspell influence?

A Romney, with a likely more conservative (by necessity) VP and more conservatives in congress can be moved toward the center/right...maybe not too very much, but way, way, more than the current Bozo-in-charge.

OK, the tongue in cheek part is "conservatives" as used above...so I'll modify that to "not-so-much-RINOs"

You/we, aren't going to change the world this year. We are certainly not going to change the world for the better if we sit home in a snit because our guy (or our former governor) didn't get the call.

What you/we need to do is (are)
a. Drop the one-cause-fits-all demands.
b. Actually work for any and all likely (or more similar to) conservative candidates - at any level.
c. And make it clear to the candidates and office holders that "tea party" isn't limited to a bus tour of the USA.

168 posted on 05/12/2012 10:45:02 PM PDT by norton
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To: norton

Sorry; the primaries are moving in such a scripted manner that I forget that neither you nor I have had a chance to be ignored yet.


169 posted on 05/12/2012 10:50:23 PM PDT by norton
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To: Revel
You don’t get it. You can reverse and apply your whole argument to Romney. It would be just as valid or invalid. Therefore, according to your argument then Romney would come out the winner. Your whole argument is therefore, nonsense.

I'm not sure what it is about this fairly straightforward concept that is not getting through to you, but no, you can't reverse it. You have one vote. Either you use it to vote for the candidate with the best chance to defeat Obama, or Obama needs one less vote to win. If you choose not to vote, or to vote for a candidate with no realistic chance of winning, then you have aided Obama.

170 posted on 05/12/2012 11:58:35 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; CommerceComet; MHGinTN
Because of your insight, I now realize that [statistically speaking] every time I choose a 7-up, instead of a Pepsi, I am voting for Coke!

This analogy only applies if we assume a final election, where one soft drink would be chosen, after wich point no other soft drink would be available. In that case, say you preferred Sprite, were not particularly fond of Pepsi, but you flat-out HATED Coke. In that case, you'd better have the Pepsi, like it or not. Otherwise, the point you are trying to make does not apply.

171 posted on 05/13/2012 12:03:43 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: DannyTN
Dan, the problem with basing one's faith on scripture alone, is that unlike with Islam, our scripture was written by men, not God. It was never intended as an eyewitness account, and is, in fact, often contradictory.

Case and point, 15 John:

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

So, no, we are not "saved" when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Instead, we have the opportunity to be saved. What we do with that opportunity is up to us. Faith without works is dead.

172 posted on 05/13/2012 12:14:02 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: CommerceComet
Valid? I believe that the example violates both the category fallacy and the proportions fallacy. Besides, as AMPU points out, it is irrelevant because it is the electoral votes, not the popular vote, which determine the outcome. In my state, my refusal to vote for Romney would have to be multiplied by 500,000 times to possibly make any difference.

By that logic, there is no point in EVER voting, is there? I used to think like that. Then I found myself living in Palm Beach County in November 2000...

173 posted on 05/13/2012 12:17:51 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: CommerceComet
Is it really your contention that your not voting for Romney gives no advantage to Obama? Consider this. You, me, and the rest of the world have to vote for Prez.

If you and I both vote for Romney, Obama needs *three* other votes to win.

If I vote for Romney, and you abstain (or vote for a third party), Obama needs only *two* other votes to win.

Like it or not, if you don't vote for Romney, you do indeed help Obama win.

174 posted on 05/13/2012 2:54:21 AM PDT by kevao
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To: gitmo

Perhaps I shouldn’t have put this out for the Friday night crowd. Some of the responses seem incoherent.


175 posted on 05/13/2012 5:24:49 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Politics is fake. I think it's owned by Vince Mcmahon)
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To: presidio9
The alinskyesque tactic of ridicule of your excellent analogy shows that merely dodging the reality wqas not enough to soothe the sour minds of some who read your post.

It is looking more and more like Milt Rominy is the ONLY credible challenge to little barry bastard commie. In order to remove the thuggish puppet an alternate must be selected. Any vote not for that most credible opponent is exactly one less vote little barry bastard has to overcome to be re-elected (and to top it off, little barry will be depositing millions of illicit votes which the credible challenger must overcome with legitimately placed votes, which the category of 'other' will be sucking out of the counting to remove the soros klown)

176 posted on 05/13/2012 7:02:48 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: presidio9
The alinskyesque tactic of ridicule of your excellent analogy shows that merely dodging the reality was not enough to soothe the sour minds of some who read your post.

It is looking more and more like Milt Rominy is the ONLY credible challenge to little barry bastard commie. In order to remove the thuggish puppet an alternate must be selected. Any vote not for that most credible opponent is exactly one less vote little barry bastard has to overcome to be reelected (and to top it off, little barry will be depositing millions of illicit votes which the credible challenger must overcome with legitimately placed votes, which the category of 'other' will be sucking out of the counting to remove the soros klown).

177 posted on 05/13/2012 7:03:32 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: norton
A Romney, with a likely more conservative (by necessity) VP and more conservatives in congress can be moved toward the center/right...maybe not too very much, but way, way, more than the current Bozo-in-charge.

The folks being floated as potential VP candidates are Romney fans. The GOP-e is not going to allow somebody on the ticket who is not approved of by them.

The fact that Romney is easily sailing to victory shows that the GOP-e doesn't even pretend to care about Conservatives anymore.

We are certainly not going to change the world for the better if we sit home in a snit because our guy (or our former governor) didn't get the call.

Nobody said anything about staying home - don't assume that just because I won't vote for somebody like Romney, that I won't show up and vote. I'll show up and I'll vote for the most conservative candidate in each race. Sometimes it means a Republican, sometimes a third party.

What you/we need to do is (are)
a. Drop the one-cause-fits-all demands.


There are some things I won't compromise on anymore, because I've been compromising for decades, and all of that compromise has done nothing but lead us to Romney.

b. Actually work for any and all likely (or more similar to) conservative candidates - at any level.

That's exactly what I'm going to do. Of course it means that I will have to look at third party candidates in a lot of races, since there are too many liberals with an (R) next to their name.

c. And make it clear to the candidates and office holders that "tea party" isn't limited to a bus tour of the USA.

If the GOP-e actually gave a damn about Conservatives, Romney wouldn't have the nomination.

Since 1988, we have gotten progressively more and more liberal Republicans because most of us ultimately bend over and do what the GOP-e tells us to do - namely support the candidates who win the primaries.

You know what supporting Romney really does? It tells the GOP that your will can be bent, that you will sacrifice your morals and your principles because the GOP tells you to or because the GOP scares you by using Obama as the bogeyman.

George H. W. Bush, Bob Dole, George W. Bush, John McCain, Mitt Romney - each progressively more liberal than the last. The two Bushes, Dole, and McCain - what did they do? They either lost to scumbag liberals or they gave us bigger and more expensive government, and then turned that government over to scumbag liberals. Romney is even more liberal than that bunch, and supporting Romney tells the GOP you are just fine with how they've been doing things since 1988.

At some point you will wake up and realize you've been used and abused for decades by the liberals running the GOP. For me, it was the realization that the GOP-e was going to do all that they could to get Romney the nomination, and that if Romney is the candidate in 2012, then we'll see an even more liberal Republican in 2016 or 2020.
178 posted on 05/13/2012 12:06:08 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: CommerceComet

OK, this is pointless and tiresome. Daniel could loyally serve the unbelieving and even anti-believer kings of Babylon for decades, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose the lesser of two evils between Romney and Obama. Paul could admonish Christians to “honor the king” when the king (emperor) was as pagan and anti-Christian as Romney, and probably more so, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose between two men, one of whom openly identifies with the Constitution - imperfectly, to be sure! - and the other openly tries to subvert it.

Stay home. Don’t soil your pure hand in the voting booth.

Believe what you will about the valueless nature of your non-vote. The nation will no doubt benefit from the wisdom of your choice ... somehow ...


179 posted on 05/13/2012 12:09:56 PM PDT by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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To: Manic_Episode

Some folk respond to the headlines, assuming they won’t get more information from the article or the vanity post.


180 posted on 05/13/2012 12:50:09 PM PDT by gitmo
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To: EternalVigilance

I’ve not replied to you because I’ve not had a chance to watch the entire interview, but barring the unforseen I would be very happy to vote for you Sir! Perhaps more.


181 posted on 05/14/2012 12:19:27 PM PDT by Manic_Episode (Politics is fake. I think it's owned by Vince Mcmahon)
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To: Manic_Episode

Thank you.

We’re running a completely grassroots old-fashioned front porch campaign, albeit with a twenty-first century twist. So, I have time to actually talk to real folks. Drop me a line if I can answer questions you might have about what we’re trying to do.

tomhoefling@gmail.com

You can also talk directly to me, and many of our other leaders from across the country, on one of our twice-weekly America’s Summit, Restore the Republic, calls.

http://www.americaspartynews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7216&posts=9&start=1


182 posted on 05/14/2012 12:35:15 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (We're not Republicans or Democrats. We're Americans. Visit SelfGovernment.US.)
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To: presidio9
"Dan, the problem with basing one's faith on scripture alone, is that unlike with Islam, our scripture was written by men, not God. It was never intended as an eyewitness account, and is, in fact, often contradictory. Case and point, 15 John:... "

Our scripture was recorded by men, but was inspired by God and is not contradictory when properly understood.

When you run into an apparent contradiction, you need to step back and examine the verses and context more carefully. Sometimes consulting other Christians and commetaries will point out what you are missing.

The verse you quoted doesn't actually mention salvation, so you need to be careful about assuming it does, when such an assumption runs counter to other verses that are clear and unambiguous.

The context of that verse is in preparing the vine to bear more fruit, not in preparing the believer for heaven. There are at least a couple of ways that verse can be understood. "Taken away", can refer to removal from earth. It may also refer to pretenders who profess Christ but have not internalized that with faith.

Commentary on John 15

And I don't have time today to go into the fact that Islam's Koran was also written by a man and has plenty of contradictions including what it says about prior scripture.

183 posted on 05/14/2012 2:32:43 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
There are at least a couple of ways that verse can be understood.

contradictory (ˌkɒntrəˈdɪktərɪ) — adj

1. inconsistent; incompatible

2. given to argument and contention: a contradictory person

3. logic contrary Compare subcontrary (of a pair of statements) unable both to be true or both to be false under the same circumstances

184 posted on 05/15/2012 11:29:15 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: presidio9

Good, you understand the meaning of contradictory.

Now I suggest you consider trying to understand that verse in a way not contradictory to the rest of scripture.


185 posted on 05/16/2012 10:46:26 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
Good, you understand the meaning of contradictory.

Too bad you still don't. It is facinating to watch people jump through hoops trying to shoehorn the entire New Testament into the faulty interpretation of one particular line. The bad news is that these books have many authors, multiple agendas, and frequent errors in translation and transcription.

186 posted on 05/16/2012 10:26:10 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: presidio9
"It is facinating to watch people jump through hoops trying to shoehorn the entire New Testament into the faulty interpretation of one particular line."

Pot calls kettle black. We have many passages indicating that we can't lose our salvation, including several in the book of John, where you quoted that one verse from. The verse you quoted doesn't mention salvation, but you want to overturn many passages of scripture with that one verse, by insisting it can mean you can lose your salvation, when it doesn't say that. And to insist on that, then you must assume that scripture is contradictory and was not inspired by God. In fact, your interpretation is making the book of John look contradictory.

187 posted on 05/17/2012 1:50:49 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Berlin_Freeper
If you vote for Romney you are going to Hell.

If you vote for Obama, you're already there.

188 posted on 05/17/2012 2:28:04 AM PDT by Fresh Wind ('People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook.' Richard M. Nixon)
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To: Manic_Episode

You are over thinking this thing. Obama has launched a direct frontal attack on Christianity through his health care bill. There is no indication that he would relent if he is reelected.

K,I.S.S. - (keep it simple, stupid) usually works pretty well for me, when I try to decide what to do.

ABO.

Building (rebuilding?) a conservative movement is all well and good. But, you do not start remodeling your house while it is on fire.


189 posted on 05/17/2012 3:31:31 AM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever.)
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To: Belteshazzar
OK, this is pointless and tiresome. Daniel could loyally serve the unbelieving and even anti-believer kings of Babylon for decades, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose the lesser of two evils between Romney and Obama. Paul could admonish Christians to “honor the king” when the king (emperor) was as pagan and anti-Christian as Romney, and probably more so, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose between two men, one of whom openly identifies with the Constitution - imperfectly, to be sure! - and the other openly tries to subvert it.

It is "pointless and tiresome" because you keep bringing up the same type of examples which do not prove the point under consideration. When did Daniel vote for Nebuchadnezzar? Belshazzar? When did Paul vote for Nero? Obeying and serving an evil ruler is different than voluntarily voting for one. God has granted this nation freedoms not known in many places. One of those freedoms is to vote OR NOT VOTE as the situation dictates. Christians to vote their conscience seriously need to consider the option of not voting for any candidate when both are enemies of the Cross.

190 posted on 05/17/2012 7:28:51 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: presidio9
By that logic, there is no point in EVER voting, is there? I used to think like that. Then I found myself living in Palm Beach County in November 2000...

Not exactly the most compelling example. It would have still taken another 537 Bush voters (besides you) to make a difference or 268 other people flipping their votes from Bush to Gore and you not voting to make a difference. Even in that extremely close election, your one vote was essentially insignificant.

Let's not overstate the importance of any one vote. Besides I have not called for people to sit out the election below the Presidential line. In fact, I am persuading the conservatives I know who have stated they are sitting out this election to vote down the ticket for those people who will thwart the agendas of both Obama and Romney.

191 posted on 05/17/2012 7:41:45 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: kevao; Revel
Is it really your contention that your not voting for Romney gives no advantage to Obama?

See post 149. As Revel points out any argument which states a non-vote for Romney is a vote for Obama is exactly mirrored by the argument that a non-vote for Obama is a vote for Romney. I am a total ABOR (anyone but Obama or Romney). Just because I'm more opposed to Obama, it doesn't follow that my vote is available to Romney.

To your example:

Flaw #1: I am not compelled to vote. It is perfectly within my Biblical and Constitutional rights to abstain if I so chose.

Flaw #2 (also known as the category fallacy): Your example assumes that I can be persuaded to vote for Romney, in other words, I can be moved from one category to another. (This is also crudely referred to as the "if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle" fallacy.) Since I am firmly opposed to Romney, it could be argued that I could be just as easily persuaded to vote for Obama since I rather fight the enemy outside the gates than an enemy inside the gates (but I won't). See post 149.

Flaw #3 (also known as the proportions fallacy): Your example puts too much importance on one act which distorts the reality of the situation. My vote (or yours) means basically nothing in the overall scheme of things. See post 191. My state went for McCain by about 186K votes (or 15 percentage points). For Obama to carry this state, far more 2008 McCain voters than just me are going to have to decide that Romney is a bridge too far.

Flaw #4: Your example is a popular vote example. While the popular vote correlates to some degree, it is the electoral college which decides the Presidential race. In this regard, your example is irrelevant. Practically speaking, if Romney needs my vote to carry my state, he's already on the losing side of a historical landslide.

By your logic, I'm going to be contributing to the Obama campaign as well because I'm not giving any money to the Romney campaign. I'm sure you'll balk at this but think about it: giving my money to a campaign is as voluntary an act as my selection of whom I'm going to vote for. A non-vote for Obama and Romney is not a vote for either man just as not giving money to either man is a lack of financial support for both men.

192 posted on 05/17/2012 11:39:01 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: CommerceComet
My vote (or yours) means basically nothing in the overall scheme of things.

If only you had been in charge of the Dem's GOTV in 2008, we wouldn't have suffered under Obama these past three years....

193 posted on 05/17/2012 12:43:45 PM PDT by kevao
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To: don-o
"you do not start remodeling your house while it is on fire."

====================================================

I say let it burn and build a brand new one.

194 posted on 05/18/2012 4:31:41 PM PDT by Manic_Episode (Politics is fake. I think it's owned by Vince Mcmahon)
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To: DannyTN

So, in other words, your Heaven is populated with not just people like Mother Theresa, but also KKK members who honestly believe that Jesus Christ is God’s son, that he died for our sins, and that His word is the the only path to Salvation.

No thanks. Not buying any.


195 posted on 06/03/2012 2:39:30 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: presidio9

Yes Presidio,
Sorry for the slow response, was on vacation.
Yes, heaven will be populated with murderers like Moses, King David and Paul (formerly known as the Christian killing Saul).
It will be populated with adulterers and fornicators like Abraham, King David, Samson and Solomon.
It will be populated with people who knew the truth yet denied Christ at times like Peter.
There will be people who didn’t trust what God said, or demonstrated appalling lack of faith at times, like Adam, Eve and Elijah.
There will be thieves like the one of the two that hung next to Jesus. There will be harlots like Rahab.
It will be be populated with hypocrites of all kinds.
There will be no perfect people in Heaven except for God. Yet they will all be perfect because they will have the imputed righteousness of Jesus.

“Come let us reason together, though your sins are like scarlett they shall be white as snow.”

There is another path to salvation. Never sin.


196 posted on 06/11/2012 7:43:47 AM PDT by DannyTN
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To: presidio9

By the way, given enough time God would convinced a believing KKK member that what he was doing was wrong. But accepting salvation doesn’t instantly transform a person to be Christlike. That takes a lot of time and effort. And I’m not sure any of us get there. Even the most mature Christians I have known are quick to admit that they are still discovering faults.


197 posted on 06/11/2012 7:48:44 AM PDT by DannyTN
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