Skip to comments.PRUDEN: When factoids are better than facts in Obama’s birther story
Posted on 05/29/2012 6:09:50 AM PDT by radioone
Who would have guessed that Barack Obama was the original birther, peddling the story that he was born in Kenya long before Donald Trump, Sheriff Joe and assorted nut jobs took it up as a crusade in fantasy and futility.
Mr. Obamas literary agent put together a little booklet with a biographical sketch in 1991 to promote a book he never finished with a description of the author as the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.
The literary agent now insists it was her mistake and Mr. Obama never saw the booklet until it was published. An unlikely story, but like everything else about him, its an element in the portrait of a composite president, a man with composite ambitions, composite convictions and a composite past populated by girlfriends he now concedes were composites, too.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
You’re wrong IF he was born in Hawaii. Birth on US soil imparts natural born US citizen status. This is the “anchor baby” problem. On the other hand, if Obongo was born in Kenya, or Canada, he is not a US citizen at all. Commie baby-momma wasn’t old enough to confer citizenship on offspring and of course the baby-daddy wasn’t a US citizen at all. There’s also the question of how he got an Indonesian passport without renouncing any US citizenship he may, or may not, have had.
You have confused natural born with NATIVE born. This is the same reason why Bobby Jindal of LA and Marco Rubio of FL are not valid choices for VP.
"The Constitution does not define the meaning of natural born Citizen. The U.S. Supreme Court gives meaning to terms that are not expressly defined in the Constitution by looking to the context in which those terms are used; to statutes enacted by the First Congress, Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 790-91 (1983); and to the common law at the time of the Founding. United Suites v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 655 (1898). These sources all confirm that the phrase natural born includes both birth abroad to parents who were citizens, and birth within a nations territory and allegiance. Thus, regardless of the sovereign status of the Panama Canal Zone at the time of Senator McCains birth, he is a natural born citizen because he was born to parents who were U.S. citizens.
Indeed, the statute that the First Congress enacted on this subject not only established that such children are U.S. citizens, but also expressly referred to them as natural born citizens. Act of Mar. 26, 1790, ch. 3, § 1, 1 Stat. 103, 104.
Historical practice confirms that birth on soil that is under the sovereignty of the United States, but not within a State, satisfies the Natural Born Citizen Clause. For example, Vice President Charles Curtis was born in the territory of Kansas on January 25, 1860 one year before Kansas became a State. Because the Twelfth Amendment requires that Vice Presidents possess the same qualifications as Presidents, the service of Vice President Curtis verifies that the phrase natural born Citizen includes birth outside of any State but within U.S. territory. Similarly, Senator Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona before its statehood, yet attained the Republican Partys presidential nomination in 1964. And Senator Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961 not long after its admission to the Union on August 21, 1959. We find it inconceivable that Senator Obama would have been ineligible for the Presidency had he been born two years earlier."
As you indicate, we need this resolved sooner rather than later with such cases as Rubio and Jindal in the mix, not to mention the 300,000 to 400,000 anchor babies born each year and our total foreign born population of over 40 million.
Where do you get that definition? It is not in the Constitution.
I think you are confusing citizenship with natural born citizenship, as required by the Constitution for the office of President.
The example of McCain is questionable, but at least he had two citizen parents. Barack Obama had one citizen parent, whom was too young to convey citizenship under the laws at the time if BO was born abroad.
What is the source of your second citation?
I find the coincidence amazing that in 2008, in a nation of over 300 million people, both major political parties would nominate individuals for the highest job in the land who might not meet the citizenship requirement for the job. What are the odds of that?
Could it be the Republican establishment ran McCain in order to deflect attention from Obama’s inability to meet the natural born requirement? Had Obama’s natural born status become an issue, the media would have jumped all over McCain being born outside the USA.
Since the term does not appear to be defined at the time it was used, it will be hard to prove either way.
1790 writings from the First Congress to define a citizen as natural born if both parents were US citizens was specific only to those born on Foreign Soil.
My understanding is not to add additional requirements to what was in the Constitution. Natural Born Citizen means to me, by the conditions of my birth, I was born a citizen; no additional requirements such as naturalization.
Those that want to add additional requirements to this clause, should consider the 1st and 2nd admendments and what requirements liberals would add to those.
If Obama was born abroad out of wedlock, he would still be considered a natural born citizen. If his parents were married, it would be a different matter.
>> You have confused natural born with NATIVE born <<
You would appear have confused nonsense with common sense:
Any competent lawyer can tell you there really is no difference in today’s legal context between “natural born” and “native born.” The 14th Amendment makes the matter certain. Moreover, even before that Amendment was passed, British common law on the subject would have trumped Vattel any day.
But no reason to believe me. Just go and make your erroneous “Vattelistic” argument before any federal judge in the land, and you’ll be dismissed from the court forthwith, even laughed out of the building. Moreover, you’ll be lucky if you aren’t charged court costs for bringing a frivilous action.
The same resolution that Obama himself sponsored and signed? SR 511?
Got anything else? For the record, I’m not 100% convinced that McCain is NBC either.
It seems likely that Mr. Obama has a problem then, doesn’t it?
Obama’s parents were married, and from 1991 - 2007, his publicist (and by extension, Obama himself) claimed he was born in Kenya.
Looks like this falls under your “different matter” category...
I don’t get this.
The agent says she made a mistake listing that he was born in Kenya.
Where did she ever get the idea that he was born overseas?
After all, to paraphrase Joe Biden and Harry Reid, Obama appears to be a clean nice looking guy, without a Negro dialect. Why would someone have any reason to meet him and think he was obviously born in another country???
Clearly, she was told that he was born in Kenya. Maybe we’ll never find the smoking gun on that one. But it’s not believable that she just happened to think he was born in Kenya, and that it was her own personal mistake, and that she wasn’t fed this information from someone else.
I guess I’ll just have to stand trial with Tribe and Olson. Suits me, seems like good company. Have a great day, FRiend.
We need to resolve this matter sooner rather than later thru the courts. Until then, all we have are opinions, yours, mine, Olson and Tribe's, the Senate's, etc.
You touch on an important point, namely, that the courts would have to issue a ruling on what “natural born” citizen really means.
You touch on an important point, namely, that the courts would have to issue a ruling on what “natural born” citizen really means.
No record of the Obama-Dunham marriage, which would be illegal anyway, because Obama was still married in Africa.
We do have the state of Hawaii claiming that Obama was born in Hawaii. Arpaio's Cold Case Posse has challenged the validity of the BC that appeared on the WH website. Pretty convincing stuff, but until criminal charges are pursued, we are left with the status quo.
My point in all of this is that although many of us have strong opinions on Obama and his narrative, we need this to be decided by the courts. We need facts and evidence and the willingess to pursue wherever they take us. Our political leadership has failed us in that regard.
Obama's publicity Bio has him listed as being born in Kenya. I assure you his book publicist did not just dream this up or pull it out of his ass! That was information given to his publicist by President Obama. It stayed on his Bio for years. It was changed just prior to running for the Democrat Nomination.
There are only 2 possible answers:
1. He was born in Kenya.
2. He was born in the United States and lied to his publicist about where he was born.
This would make him a more exotic candidate for his Illinois House and US Senate Races. The only answer that can be given when and if the media asks will be the following: "It was an error of the publisher. and I did not proof read the bio." However, I did remember to get it "corrected" before I ran for president of the United States.
That Bravo Sierra will not pass the smell test. A commercial Bio is written from information given to the publicist by the subject of the bio.
"Alec, I will take number one for the nomination for President of the United States."
...and Obama’s own opinion, 1991-2007, that he was born in Kenya.
Defend Obama all you like, he’s still a lying POS whom is likely ineligible for the Office he holds.
Well, the Obama team trumpet the newspaper announcement that a son was born to Mr. & Mrs. Obama. We also have the divorce papers. I think we can safely say that they were married.
Are you suggesting that, despite the above evidence, they were not married?
I find sixteen years’ worth of biographies from Obama’s personal publicist to be “pretty convincing stuff.” Plenty of other contemporaneous anecdotal evidence that Obama represented himself as born in Kenya.
Was he lying then? Or is he lying now? It’s one or the other.
LOL. There you go getting all emotional when confronted with reality. I am not defending Obama. He is obviously hiding something. He may or may not have been born in Kenya, but for some reason, he thought that saying so gave him some sort of cachet or benefit. In a few weeks, Arpaio and Zullo promise to disclose some more information on the results of their investigation. We need facts and evidence, not emotion.
Here are the divorce papers Some time ago, a FReeper from Hawaii who was in the legal profession responded to me that it was possible to get a divorce without actually getting married.
As far as the announcement is concerned, it could have been a cover story to explain that their daughter had not had a child out of wedlock. Obama himself has made comments to the effect that he was not sure his parents were married. We do know they never lived together and that Obama's mother left a week after he the date he was allegedly born to attend school in Washington state. Obama SR was a sperm donor, period. Zullo has now indicated that Obama Sr may not be the real father based on their investigation. Stay tuned---
What do you mean, “confronted with reality?”
The reality to which I am reacting is that Obama has been saying he was born in Kenya, until 2007, at which point he said he was born in Hawaii.
You assume that he was born in Hawaii and was lying about being born in Kenya. I believe, considering the Obama team’s stonewalling on his college admission records and transcripts, that it’s more likely he was telling the truth about being born in Kenya and is lying now.
Regardless, he’s a liar.
We know he was lying at one point or another. We just don’t know what is the lie and why he was lying.
If he came right out of Harvard claiming to be Kenyan-born, it’s obvious to me that he probably claimed the same while at Harvard; otherwise, his classmates would have noticed the change in stories.
Add in the fact that his biography changed right before his Presidential run, and I think it’s more likely he was telling the truth then and is lying now about being born in Hawaii.
We know he lied about his place of birth. We know the story changed at the time he started his Presidential run. What do YOU think?
Obama's bio put out by his literary publicist in 1991 says he was born in Kenya. Obama either concocted this story to make himself more interesting and exotic or it is true. We don't have his university records to see if he attended school as a foreign student.
It is not only Obama who is saying he was born in Hawaii. It is the state of Hawaii that says officially he was born in Hawaii. And you trot out the contemperanous newspaper announcement that announced his birth to show his parents were married. We need something to counter the state of Hawaii's certification of his birth in Hawaii.
You assume that he was born in Hawaii and was lying about being born in Kenya. I believe, considering the Obama teams stonewalling on his college admission records and transcripts, that its more likely he was telling the truth about being born in Kenya and is lying now.
I assume nothing. I can only state the reality of the situation. Obama is in the WH. Hawaii states he was born there. We need more information and facts otherwise we are just speculating about him. Obama needed to be vetted in 2008. He was not.
You are entitled to your opinion.
If Obama has proof he was born in Hawaii, let us see it. It is not sufficient for a man in Hawaii telling us it exists, not when his grandmother says she was there and witnessed his birth in Kenya.
There may be documents in Hawaii that say Obama was born, but I know they do not say he was born in Hawaii. If they do, let us see. If they existed, some clerk would have peeked and let it out that they were there.
My main problem with Obama being born in Kenya is what kind of window are we talking about in terms of when his mother and Obama Sr. could find the time and money to travel back and forth to Kenya for the birth. Obama Sr did not come from a rich family and he was in the US on a student visa.
Obama was allegedly born on August 4, 1961. His mother would have had to travel weeks before to Kenya. And Obama Sr. had a wife and two children in Kenya. Looking at the immigration documents, I couldn't find an indication as to when he left the US and then returned to support that window of time. Maybe you can.
IMO and it is only an opinion, Obama lied about being born in Kenya. He was a stranger in his own country. He had been adopted by an Indonesian father and spent four of his formative years (age 6-10) in Indonesia. He never knew his birth father (except for an alleged photo at an airport in Hawaii for a brief visit.) His mother effectively abandoned him by sending him back to Hawaii to be raised by his grandparents. His sister had an Indonesian father and was born in Indonesia.
Obama's fantasy autobiography (probably written by Ayers) fed into this need for an identity. He picked his sperm donor father as part of the title of his book. There is a strong possibility that Obama attended Occidental and Columbia as a foreign student, perhaps using a Brit passport based on his father. It helped him gain admission to both schools given his spotty academic record. The fact that his roommates in Occidental and Columbia were foreign students indicates to me that he was claiming foreign student status. Normally, at that time at least, colleges put foreign students together.
But my opinion is meaningless and irrelevant. We need facts and evidence.
In your scenario, when did Obama stop saying he was born in Kenya? His own wife referred to Kenya as his “home country.”
Methinks you're kinda* mixed up there. If you believe Tribe and Olson are members of the Vattel school, then I've got an island in the Hudson River to sell you.
*To put it mildly, as the saying goes.
>> Natural Born Citizen means to me, by the conditions of my birth <<
Not only to you, but also to anybody else who is endowed with common sense and is capable of logical thought.
As someone who has been looking at all kinds of information about Obama for five years, if you have any documented information where Obama personally claims he was born in Kenya, then I would appreciate greatly any source you might have. It would be a huge bombshell if you have it.
If I had such a source, it would have been in Breitbart’s hands long ago.
This is anecodotal, but it’s a personal anecdote: I was in DXB the day before Obama’s election, and I chatted with a young man regarding the election. He stated that tomorrow was “a big day, because a Kenyan is being elected President of the United States.” I told him he was mistaken and he said no, that Obama is from Kenya.
Obviously, the perception has been for a long time that Obama was from Kenya. His wife thought that. His grandmother said so. Kenyan Ministers said so, on record. There is loads of circumstantial evidence that he was born in Kenya, or has been representing himself as such for years.
I agree with Barack Obama when he said he was born in Kenya.
Prior to your reference to Vattel, I was not fully conversant with his writings but have read more today since you want to paint me with that brush. As I attempted to do earlier, I do align and agree with Tribe and Olson in their analysis of the specifics of Sen. McCain’s citizenship status. I agree that they are not adherents of Vattel’s writings especially since they reference Blackstone’s Commentary, a source not held in high regard in the “birther” community site scans I did today.
In aligning myself with Tribe/Olson, I take specific note of their memo’s closing paragraph on birth to two parents of US citizenship on soil under US sovreignty. This is the source of my differing terminology in natural versus native. I understand that current legalities do not support that as a distinction.
I believe our exchange can now be considered complete.
You are the one confused.
I have at one time thought Obama was born in Cuba and is a revenge tool from Castro against America.
Obama born in Hawaii? I don’t have any faith in that by the facts of too much overwhelming amount of questionable evidence, all of it is too contrived, too flimsy and full of holes.
Better yet I bet there are people at the airports in Hawaii that target arriving tourists offering them to buy copies of Obamas BC.
Obama has been craftily built into the internet history banks by master internet chessmen. Tell the lie often enough people will believe it, bigger is better.
Hawthorn has already done your work here. The horse is dead and it’s time to dismount rather than continue the beating.
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