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World War II Deconstructed
Accuracy in Academia ^ | August 15, 2012 | Malcolm A. Kline

Posted on 08/16/2012 7:43:49 AM PDT by Academiadotorg

Herbert Hoover’s Secret History of the Second World War and its Aftermath.

As it turns out, Hoover stated what would be his central thesis in a conversation at a 1951 Manhattan dinner to a New York public relations man in language that history buffs who associate the former president with the high starch collars he wore would never guess that he would use. “When Roosevelt put America in to help Russia as Hitler invaded in June, 1941,” Hoover said. “We should have let those two bastards annihilate themselves.”

George H. Nash, no mean historian himself, supplied the above anecdote in his introduction to the presidential memoir published more than four decades after the author’s death. Nash edited the volume, which runs to more than 900 pages with footnotes and appendices.

“Hitler’s constant ambition, intention and preparation during eight years had been the conquest of Russia and Eastern Europe and the uprooting of the Communist Vatican in Moscow,” Hoover wrote in one of the notes which Nash appends to the text. “Roosevelt knew in December 1940 and more emphatically in March 1941 that Hitler had turned his military objectives to that purpose.”

“His State Department in mid-January had even warned Russia it was coming.” It turns out that Hoover had a really reliable source providing him with that last tidbit of information—Roosevelt’s Secretary of State, Cordell Hull.

“I met with Secretary of Hull in Washington during February, 1941, to discuss relief matters, subsequent to which we had a general conversation,” Hoover recounted. “In reply to my query as to what the Germans were doing against Russia, Hull told me that they had concentrated 1,250,000 troops along their eastern frontier, and at least 300,000 additional troops on the Bulgarian frontier.”

(Excerpt) Read more at academia.org ...


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Education; History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: communism; godsgravesglyphs; worldwarii
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1 posted on 08/16/2012 7:43:56 AM PDT by Academiadotorg
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To: Academiadotorg

I have been a student of WWII for most of my 62-years,and I agree with Herbert Hoover!We needed to help the Brits,but we should have let the Nazis and The Soviets destroy each other!!


2 posted on 08/16/2012 7:50:37 AM PDT by bandleader
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To: Academiadotorg
“We should have let those two bastards annihilate themselves.”

Monday morning quarterbacking at its finest. Suppose one of the "bastards" had scored a decisive victory over the other, then what?

Then either Stalin had all of Europe, or Hitler had all of Europe. Either way, very distasteful.

3 posted on 08/16/2012 7:53:51 AM PDT by Leaning Right
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To: bandleader

I might agree, but without the benefit of hindsight, it was easy to see how Stalin might have come to some sort of peace with Hitler and transfer a load of assets back west to take on Britain again, or take the Caucasian oilfields and be in a better position to fight the Western allies.


4 posted on 08/16/2012 7:55:56 AM PDT by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Academiadotorg

The clear implication is that Alger Hiss and the rest of the paid agents of the Soviet Union in the Stare Department engineered us into the war so that Stalin could retain power. If he had failed in his war with Hitler, Stalin would have been deposed and likely the USSR would have fallen.


5 posted on 08/16/2012 8:00:11 AM PDT by muir_redwoods (Legalize Freedom!!)
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To: Academiadotorg

There is evidence that Stalin was planning to invade Germany while the Nazis were attacking France & Britain, but that the quick collapse of France prevented that. If France & Britain had been able to stabilize their front as in WW1, then we might have seen Russians doing the attacking. Probably the Russians would have pushed the Cold War frontier somewhat closer to the Rhine in that situation.


6 posted on 08/16/2012 8:00:43 AM PDT by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: bandleader
This analysis is moronic.

Both the Nazis and Soviets were driving for total victory.

The UK could not have remained independent - either the Soviets would have defeated the Nazis and conquered Britain, or the Nazis would have defeated the Soviets and conquered Britain.

Whoever won would then have moved to consolidate the British Empire and have seized Canada, India and Africa and entered into an alliance with China.

The US would have wound up completely isolated, with no export markets and with its northern border a staging ground for invasion.

Hoover was a completely useless sack of dung for many reasons, but this kind of analysis underlines it.

7 posted on 08/16/2012 8:04:19 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Academiadotorg

Hoover was obviously no kind of a strategist.

For at least 400 years it has been British and then US policy to prevent any one tyrant from controlling all of Europe.

If he does, he controls massive economic and military resources and within a few years can put together a force capable of utterly overwhelming UK or USA.

This was even more important in the past, when Europe represented a much larger percentage of the world’s potential power.

Nukes have changed these calculations, but in 1941 nobody knew they would work.


8 posted on 08/16/2012 8:05:31 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Tallguy
There is evidence that Stalin was planning to invade Germany while the Nazis ...

Lol, don't know where you got that so called evidence. The reality is that Stalin decimated the Red Army, purging its generals in the 30's, cooperated with Hitler over the invasion of Poland and appeased Hitler up to point in time when the Wermacht invaded Russia.

9 posted on 08/16/2012 8:09:19 AM PDT by OldCorps
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To: bandleader
Also, the Nazis and Soviets lost a combined 30 million combatants and civilians in their war against one another, while we lost 300 thousand in the European theater.

So, instead of letting the Nazis and Soviets do 100% of the dying, we let them do 99% of it instead.

10 posted on 08/16/2012 8:11:23 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Academiadotorg

It is all Tojo’s Fault!


11 posted on 08/16/2012 8:11:49 AM PDT by GraceG
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To: OldCorps

Stalin’s plan was to have the War in the West, which was his intent when he signed the non-aggression pact....that would buy him time to build up the Red Army, and be ready to attack in 1943, in the hope that by that time the British, French and German armies would be depleted....only one thing, the French surrendered in 6 weeks, which as it turned out, may have been a blessing in disguise.


12 posted on 08/16/2012 8:12:26 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: bandleader

Dunno. It might have been a practical decision as opposed to a moral one.

If we didn’t aid Russia, the Germans MIGHT have been able to take Russia. If the Germans took Russia, they might have been able to finish off the rest of Europe.

More likely, though, Germany and her allies (why do people forget that Germany had allies?) would have been so busy digesting the USSR, that war would have been put on hold for 10-20 years.


13 posted on 08/16/2012 8:13:35 AM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Leaning Right

Actually, Hoover made this point before the fact.


14 posted on 08/16/2012 8:13:49 AM PDT by Academiadotorg
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To: wideawake

Actually, Hoover was a great engineer and a selfless humanitarian. He just wasn’t a student of the free market. He was an implacable anti-communist and did have sources of information we don’t, at home and abroad.


15 posted on 08/16/2012 8:18:38 AM PDT by Academiadotorg
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To: Academiadotorg

My dad used to say about WWII that “Germany and Russia decided to split up Poland - and the entire world went to war to make sure Russia got all of it.”

Not entirely accurate - but amusing in hindsight - WWII as a ‘Polish joke’.


16 posted on 08/16/2012 8:26:24 AM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: OldCorps

The reality is also that Hitler and Stalin both were double dealing tyrants. They each played events for a moment of their own choosing.


17 posted on 08/16/2012 8:29:21 AM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: Little Ray

“why do people forget that Germany had allies?”
Italy, Spain, Romania are pretty forgettable as allies....


18 posted on 08/16/2012 8:35:40 AM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: Little Ray

I think Stalin and the Bolsheviks were very close to being overthrown by their own generals...had Hitler taken Moscow, I could have seen that happening. That’s why Hitler should have focused on taking Moscow, to undermine the leadership, yes they would have retreated East, but I don’t think under those circumstances, Stalin’s rule would have lasted much longer.


19 posted on 08/16/2012 8:39:39 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Academiadotorg
So...FDR wanted to help Stalin against Hitler in March 1941...

...and then waited until December 8, 1941 to declare war against Japan...

...so as to induce Hitler to declare war on us on December 11...

...so that we, already at war with Japan (for three whole days) could finally turn around and declare war on Germany in order to help the USSR.

That FDR was one clever sumbitch, I'll tell you what.

20 posted on 08/16/2012 8:41:30 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (Romney Sucks. Mutiny Now!)
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To: Academiadotorg
So...FDR wanted to help Stalin against Hitler in March 1941...

...and then waited until December 8, 1941 to declare war against Japan...

...so as to induce Hitler to declare war on us on December 11...

...so that we, already at war with Japan (for three whole days) could finally turn around and declare war on Germany in order to help the USSR.

That FDR was one clever sumbitch, I'll tell you what.

21 posted on 08/16/2012 8:42:36 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (Romney Sucks. Mutiny Now!)
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To: Academiadotorg
Hoover was a great engineer and a selfless humanitarian.

Think you're mixing up two different Hoovers. J. Edgar and Herbert are not the same guy.

LOL

22 posted on 08/16/2012 8:46:12 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: wideawake
Also, the Nazis and Soviets lost a combined 30 million combatants and civilians in their war against one another, while we lost 300 thousand in the European theater. So, instead of letting the Nazis and Soviets do 100% of the dying, we let them do 99% of it instead.

A good summary.

This was the balance rope Churchill and Roosevelt walked.

A gamble that won as evidenced by the numbers above.

We are fortunate that nukes ended this magnitude of conflicts, at least in the progressive world.

23 posted on 08/16/2012 8:48:30 AM PDT by cicero2k
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To: OldCorps

It is ‘controversial’ I’ll see if I can find it for you... Stand by...


24 posted on 08/16/2012 8:49:10 AM PDT by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: Tallguy

***but that the quick collapse of France prevented that.***

A shock and sarcastic “NO!”


25 posted on 08/16/2012 8:55:34 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Tyrannies demand immense sacrifices of their people to produce trifles.-Marquis de Custine)
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To: Academiadotorg

Actually, I don’t know what I’m talking about. Pay no attention to my previous post.


26 posted on 08/16/2012 9:01:02 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: ExGeeEye

You are quite correct. It has been pointed out that Hitler had no treaty or other requirement to declare war on USA. He just decided, all on his own, to do so.


27 posted on 08/16/2012 9:02:39 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: wideawake
The UK could not have remained independent - either the Soviets would have defeated the Nazis and conquered Britain, or the Nazis would have defeated the Soviets and conquered Britain.

Whoever won would have been much weakened. The reason Hitler started WW2 was that his system was a complete bust economically -- he HAD to conquer and loot other countries to keep afloat. Stalin was in much the same boat. We would have been better off supplying Britain while Germany was occupied elsewhere.

28 posted on 08/16/2012 9:06:53 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (A deep-fried storm is coming, Mr Obama.)
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To: ExGeeEye

***...so as to induce Hitler to declare war on us on December 11... ****

We were already in an undeclared war with Germany when the Japs attacked Pearl Harbor.

Have you heard of that ship the good RUBEN JAMES? Sunk by a German U-boat on October 23, 1941.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_%28DD-245%29

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Sinking_Of_The_Reuben_James.htm


29 posted on 08/16/2012 9:07:10 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Tyrannies demand immense sacrifices of their people to produce trifles.-Marquis de Custine)
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To: GenXteacher; dfwgator; ExGeeEye; Sherman Logan; cicero2k; Tallguy; Ruy Dias de Bivar
I think Stalin and the Bolsheviks were very close to being overthrown by their own generals...had Hitler taken Moscow, I could have seen that happening. That’s why Hitler should have focused on taking Moscow, to undermine the leadership, yes they would have retreated East, but I don’t think under those circumstances, Stalin’s rule would have lasted much longer.

The capture of Moscow by the Germans would not have changed the overall outcome of the Eastern Front. The Soviets were prepared.

Most of the Soviet Staff actually expected Moscow to fall. As a result Kubyshev was designated as the temporary capital in case the city fell. It was about 600 miles or so to the east and pretty much all of the Soviet Staff and Stavka were there, including Molotov and even Lenin. It was a huge industrial town with a large population.

A skeleton force remained in Moscow along with an armored train to escort Stalin and the Generals to safety in case all failed.

Moscow itself was booby trapped. 1200 buildings including the Kremilin Govt. Buildings and even the Bolshoi Theatre were rigged with explosives as these were the first buildings which would have surely been visited by the German High Command.

Partisan groups were already set up to continue the fight and were even given special assignments after the city fell.

Soviet industry was in the process of being moved east of the Urals.

30 posted on 08/16/2012 9:08:05 AM PDT by moonshot925
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To: GenXteacher

Don’t forget the one that has really gone down the memory hole: Finland.

Everybody talks about the gallant Finns of the Winter War, and nobody ever mentions them fighting alongside the Nazis later in the war.

BTW, the Finns were the only allies whose divisions were regarded by the Germans as equivalent to a German unit.


31 posted on 08/16/2012 9:10:59 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: moonshot925
I think Stalin and the Bolsheviks were very close to being overthrown by their own generals

Now that's funny!

Stalin had utterly destroyed the Red Army officer corps during the Great Purge, and then went after the few survivors in May and June of 1941.

Which is quite possibly the worst timing in the history of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purge_of_the_Red_Army_in_1941

The Red Army was in absolutely no shape to do any sort of coup.

32 posted on 08/16/2012 9:18:46 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

I noticed that Finland was not on the list. Many of Hitler’s forces struck the USSR from Finland and Great Britain declared war on Finland at that time.

Sweden was neutral yet they allowed German troops to use their railway to get to Norway.


33 posted on 08/16/2012 9:34:25 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Tyrannies demand immense sacrifices of their people to produce trifles.-Marquis de Custine)
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To: Sherman Logan

If you think about the circumstances in Europe at the time, allying with the Germans may not have been such a bad idea if you were a Eastern European nation. You were pretty much stuck between choosing the USSR or Nazi Germany conquering you at some point, or allying with one of them. Hell, at one point in British Palestine, members of the Lehi floated the idea of allying with Germany to drive the British out.


34 posted on 08/16/2012 9:40:47 AM PDT by PVT4evr ((Operation Iraqi Freedom 2007-2008, 2009-2010 3rd Infantry, 2010 2nd Infantry))
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To: Leaning Right

If Hitler had left it to hid generals Germany absolutely would have destroyed Russia.


35 posted on 08/16/2012 9:43:36 AM PDT by DManA
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To: PapaBear3625
We would have been better off supplying Britain while Germany was occupied elsewhere.

The Nazis were focused on France first, then the UK and then the Soviets.

There would have been no UK left to supply if we had waited for them to turn their attentions elsewhere.

36 posted on 08/16/2012 9:53:40 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I understand perfectly well WHY the Finns allied with the Germans. I just find it amusing that it is never mentioned, since Finns are “good guys,” and good guys don’t ally with Nazis.

Of course, we were perfectly happy to ally with commies, and were right to do so, under the circumstances.


37 posted on 08/16/2012 10:18:18 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: DManA
If Hitler had left it to hid generals Germany absolutely would have destroyed Russia.

I don't think so.

The Soviets had the USA as an unlimited source of raw materials, petroleum, ammunition, tanks, aircraft, trucks, foodstuffs, etc.

It would be impossible to defeat the USSR.

38 posted on 08/16/2012 10:28:44 AM PDT by moonshot925
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To: Sherman Logan
ARTICLE 3. Japan, Germany, and Italy agree to cooperate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means if one of the Contracting Powers is attacked by a Power at present not involved in the European War or in the Japanese-Chinese conflict.

At the time, the U.S. not having initiated the attack on Japan probably wasn't making the rounds in Berlin.

39 posted on 08/16/2012 10:29:52 AM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: GraceG

It is all Tojo’s Fault!


LOL. Tojo Bush.

I knew it.

I knew it, I knew it, I KNEW it.


40 posted on 08/16/2012 10:33:34 AM PDT by 98ZJ USMC
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To: bandleader
We needed to help the Brits,but we should have let the Nazis and The Soviets destroy each other!!

IIRC, the American left was against US intervention in the war until Hitler attacked the Soviets.

Mark

41 posted on 08/16/2012 10:35:54 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: Academiadotorg

Fascism and Communism were sweeping the world, even in America.

In the 1930s a man ascended to power in the U.S., he became El Presidente for life, eventually dying in office.


42 posted on 08/16/2012 10:51:08 AM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP goes for it's "conservative" Presidential candidates.)
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To: Academiadotorg

Old George P is laughing somewhere...


43 posted on 08/16/2012 11:08:53 AM PDT by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: ansel12
Fascism and Communism were sweeping the world, even in America."

Fascism and Communism are sweeping the world, particularly in America. There is no "stopping it" in sight.

44 posted on 08/16/2012 11:16:11 AM PDT by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: Sherman Logan

Thus falling into FDR’s clever trap. (nodding sagaciously)


45 posted on 08/16/2012 11:52:39 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (Romney Sucks. Mutiny Now!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Yes, adding another piece to the puzzle FDR had designed the previous March (at the latest), or so sayeth Hoover. The question remains, how did FDR gain the complicity of the U-Boat captains?


46 posted on 08/16/2012 11:56:25 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (Romney Sucks. Mutiny Now!)
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To: Sherman Logan
I have taken note of how assiduously Hitler adhered to his treaty obligations. Two in particular might have prevented full-scale war (Versailles Treaty, and German–Soviet Non-aggression Pact) had it not been for the wily FDR's machinations, so well was Hitler observing their provisions.
47 posted on 08/16/2012 12:15:23 PM PDT by ExGeeEye (Romney Sucks. Mutiny Now!)
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To: moonshot925

I meant if the US had followed Hoover’s idea and stayed out of it.


48 posted on 08/16/2012 12:16:44 PM PDT by DManA
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To: OldCorps
I didn't find the original article that I had read concerning Soviet plans to invade Germany prior to Barbarossa, but here is an article that sums-up all the revisionist writing, mostly eminating from the former Soviet Union. It's cross-referenced & footnoted, so it should offer some access to the original works. Click here.

Stalin was certainly unrealistic about the capabilities of the Soviet Army of 1941, but then is that so hard to believe from a dictator who didn't welcome a contrarian point-of-view?

49 posted on 08/16/2012 12:17:42 PM PDT by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: DManA; moonshot925
If Hitler had left it to hid generals Germany absolutely would have destroyed Russia.

Don't think so. The German Army was at the end of it's rope by the Winter of 1941. All momentum had been lost in front of Leningrad & Moscow. The units were operating deep inside Russia with few improved roads & rail connections with which to move supplies.

Hitler's scheme to sieze the oil fields of the Caucuses when offensive fighting resumed in 1942 showed that there were too many objectives and insufficient resources. In addition the Lend-Lease supplies were arriving in Soviet ports in vast quantities.

Lastly, Stalin knew by then that the danger posed by Japan in the Far East had passed when Japan "Struck South" after Pearl Harbor. He was now free to shift his Asian troops to the West.

The Russians had even planned for the loss of Moscow, so even had the OKW persuaded Hitler to go for that strategic prize instead of Stalingrad, it wouldn't have made much difference.

50 posted on 08/16/2012 12:33:04 PM PDT by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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