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Loyalty in your survival group
SHTF School ^ | 5/13/14 | Selco

Posted on 05/13/2014 4:36:29 PM PDT by Kartographer

Loyalty is one thing that you need to “grow”, and it needs time to grow, that is why it makes sense to have prepared your group before SHTF, it may be slow process, and you need to be sure what kind of people you have there.

My SHTF experience was very bad from the perspective of what I saw when it comes to loyalty.

When you have big number of unprepared folks thrown in really hard situation like war, you can see all kind of examples, mostly bad one.

Yes, I saw people betraying their friends, or even families. Sometimes for the few more hours of life. Sometimes even for food.

(Excerpt) Read more at shtfschool.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: banglist; preparedness; preppers
When Selco speaks wise preppers listen.
1 posted on 05/13/2014 4:36:29 PM PDT by Kartographer
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To: appalachian_dweller; OldPossum; DuncanWaring; VirginiaMom; CodeToad; goosie; kalee; ...

Preppers PING!!


2 posted on 05/13/2014 4:36:48 PM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
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To: Kartographer

The survival instinct under such conditions is not too far removed from one employee being asked to “stand up for” another employee in some work dispute. When livelihood may be on the line, you find out who your friends are! The same goes for survival. I wrestle with this as well. Do I spend the additional thousands to prepare for others who I have already accepted into my group? I guess in answer to my own question, I need to ask these questions now, by inquiring of these people how well prepared are they now.


3 posted on 05/13/2014 4:44:23 PM PDT by SgtHooper (This is my tag!)
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To: Kartographer
A person who needs all the fingers on one hand to count his true friends, is pretty lucky. Don't expect to have a big circle of close friends. The team can be pretty big, but that's a managed affair, not a friendship affair.

Good point about family - people tend to be way too rosy on that view.

4 posted on 05/13/2014 4:51:32 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Kartographer

Group dynamics is important. With the flood and fires in my area people have already had experience working together. There is one person that I know not to trust. There are three other felons I need to find out about. There are a couple of big groups that formed and some smaller groups of friends. Politics did not matter so much but dealing with the problems at hand were the effort. There are troublemakers and sneak theirs in the area but group dynamics can control them. The people that flew out an evacuated the area left the keys to their homes with friends and said to take their food or whatever was needed.


5 posted on 05/13/2014 5:15:11 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Kartographer

What was your shtf that was so bad?


6 posted on 05/13/2014 5:16:35 PM PDT by redhawk.44mag
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To: Kartographer

I always find your threads informative and interesting.

I am probably way to fatalistic. I stay prepared to the best of my ability but looking at the mobs at Walmart on Black Friday...what possible force could one have against people fighting for food for their families...or themselves.

I can’t honestly say that I want to be here to see the deterioration of trust and the spectacle that would ensue.


7 posted on 05/13/2014 5:18:35 PM PDT by berdie
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"The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision
of what is before them, glory and danger alike,
and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it."

~Thucydides




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8 posted on 05/13/2014 5:18:52 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: SgtHooper

I think selco is talking about the much deeper issue of courage, trust and commitment on the level of life or death.


9 posted on 05/13/2014 5:21:28 PM PDT by Clean_Sweep
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To: SgtHooper
October, 1976.
Warner Springs, CA
Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape school (with DWEST).
I'm assigned to a P-3 squadron and along with 30 or so other mutts I spent a few days getting to know my inner self.

Skipping through all the crap - water boarded three times (yes - I finally gave them my age) slammed up against a tin shed walls and tricked into signing a "corrected" document that became a "confession", the last morning came after up all night in a cage the size of a dog house. We're all out there, cold and hungry, and the "guards" trot out one of our officers.

They put him on the water board and told the group he was about to be treated unless any of us wanted to volunteer to come up and take his place.
None of us stood up to take his place.
They gave it to him once - then again - then asked again if any of us wanted to relieve him on the board.
We all sat on our hands.

In retrospect the proper thing to have done would have been for any one of us - that one leader - to stand, and encourage others to stand... they couldn't water board us all.

But we sat on our hands until the school instructors correctly determined there were no leaders in our group, and gave up.

The National Anthem started playing - the red flag of the camp came down and the Stars and Stripes went up the pole - school was out.
What should have happened was every man-jack of us would have stood to replace the LT, and then the flag would have gone up.
We finished the school, but we all pretty much failed.

The cheering and crying and hugging each other was expected - they pulled the LT down off the water board and we all ate for the first time in a couple of days. It was oatmeal that had been stewing over a fire all night; it tasted terrible, but it was wonderful.

In 1976 I learned something about leadership, and compassion, how to not get tricked into signing a confession and how to go limp when thrown up against a tin wall. And next time - if, God forbid there is a next time for me, I'll be the one to stand up.

And that's why I'm here.

10 posted on 05/13/2014 5:47:40 PM PDT by grobdriver (Where is Wilson Blair when you need him?)
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To: berdie

Understandable. But I will hold out as long as I can and terminate as many raiders as possible, to prevent them from getting to others who have had the good sense to prepare for their families. If I live long enough to see then end of the feral gaggles raiding, then my skills will be of good use to the survivors with whom I try to re establish a modicum of civilization.


11 posted on 05/13/2014 5:49:08 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: redhawk.44mag

Bosina


12 posted on 05/13/2014 6:04:13 PM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
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To: grobdriver

I was in SEE (survival, escape, and evasion) back in ‘73 (or ‘74), I believe, at Fort Knox. We did ok for the first mile dodging the enemy, took ravines, creeks, etc., on a moonlit night. But 5 guys is too many—too dam noisy. Me and another guy split away, but were eventually spotted. We both dropped into foot-high grass, I in shadowed grass (of a tree), and he, not shadowed. They got him, but missed me, no more than 4-5 feet from him. Couldn’t believe it. They hauled him off, and when clear, I boogied the last mile through the hills and valleys to the finish.

Should I have surprise assaulted them? Seemed a bit too much for the “exercise”.

It would have been interesting to be in the POW camp. I suspect they treated you guys worse than they would have me back then.

Thanks for your service!


13 posted on 05/13/2014 6:46:59 PM PDT by SgtHooper (This is my tag!)
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To: grobdriver

Thank you for that


14 posted on 05/13/2014 6:50:10 PM PDT by Ladysforest
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To: Kartographer

Listen now to what people who might be in your group say now in conservation.

When an extended family member wife asked her husband, who carries a 45 handgun, if he would shoot to save her, he hesitated, then said he might get in trouble if he shot. I knew right then I did not want this man standing with me in a SHTF serious situation. He is carrying that handgun for some kind of self important ego status. He isn’t going to shoot anyone even if his wife’s life depends on it.

Listen and remember what people say in conversation now while they are not under stress because that knowledge may save your life. I would have trusted this man but not now.


15 posted on 05/13/2014 7:39:33 PM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Marcella

WOW! I have difficulty believing that. My wife and daughters are the sole reason that I carry.


16 posted on 05/13/2014 8:51:47 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: B4Ranch

I was stunned when he said it and the real kicker was, he hesitated so long before he said it. He was evidentially thinking what could happen to HIM if he shot, rather than saving her life.

You wouldn’t hesitate and neither would I to save someone I loved. And, besides, this is Texas. You won’t get in legal trouble here to save the life of a loved one - rather, you might get a medal. Watching that scene, brought home to me, sometimes you don’t know what family or friends really are under their skin.


17 posted on 05/13/2014 9:11:00 PM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Kartographer

You don’t need a war to see how people really behave and who to trust - just have a death in the family and watch vulture relatives fight over the STUFF.

Now imagine how those same people would act in a true SHTF scenario...


18 posted on 05/14/2014 3:20:10 AM PDT by LadyBuck (Strangeways, here we come....)
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To: B4Ranch

Do you carry when you are alone?


19 posted on 05/14/2014 3:28:45 AM PDT by redhawk.44mag
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To: Kartographer

We had prowlers in the neighborhood last week for a few nights and that brought to light (as if I didn’t already have them pegged) who you do not want in your group. I called the neighbors to warn them and a couple of the city folk totally wimped out and hid under their beds. Disgusting. I tried to shame them telling them of the 90 year old disabled widow lady on a nearby street who chased the bad guys off her porch with a shot gun but the morons adjusted their rose colored glasses and pratically called me a liar. These pansy a-hats would sell anyone out in a minute. This event was eye opening on several levels not just on the sell outs but how some are so clueless they put targets on themselves and their property.


20 posted on 05/14/2014 6:54:28 AM PDT by bgill
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To: Marcella

The wife should have been filing for divorce the next morning.


21 posted on 05/14/2014 7:02:01 AM PDT by bgill
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To: LadyBuck

Good point about the funeral vultures. Add the everyday two-faced ones and holier than thous to the list.


22 posted on 05/14/2014 7:07:40 AM PDT by bgill
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To: Kartographer

Loyalty ends where desperation begins.


23 posted on 05/14/2014 7:26:06 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
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To: Marcella
When an extended family member wife asked her husband, who carries a 45 handgun, if he would shoot to save her, he hesitated, then said he might get in trouble if he shot

That hesitation spoke volumes, the excuse a library.

She's on her own.

24 posted on 05/14/2014 7:37:13 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Kartographer

Thanks for posting


25 posted on 05/14/2014 7:39:23 AM PDT by novemberslady
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To: LadyBuck
...just have a death in the family and watch vulture relatives fight over the STUFF.

There is a sizable segment of the family I don't trust as far as I can throw them as a result of such observation. There are a couple who need not even come in my house.

Sad, but true.

26 posted on 05/14/2014 7:39:28 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

“That hesitation spoke volumes, the excuse a library.”

You explained it very well. The hesitation was so long, my brain was thinking, “Why isn’t he talking?” I did not expect him to say, “I might get in trouble if I shot.” In my head I thought, “He is a wimp and she is dead.” I didn’t say anything as it wouldn’t have changed his mind, he made his decision when he hesitated so long.

My handguns are to use in a life threatening situation and if I have to have one in my hand for that reason, I will damn sure use it - without hesitation.


27 posted on 05/14/2014 8:24:43 AM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Marcella
My handguns are to use in a life threatening situation and if I have to have one in my hand for that reason, I will damn sure use it - without hesitation.

For me, it was all hypothetical until I had to draw down on someone coming in the place I was living. Had it been the person who was the threat, a small movement and a squeeze would have finished it.

From there, it was a matter of rolling the revolver back in my hand, letting the hammer down and admonishing the person for the way they entered, especially since they knew the situation.

When I got my concealed carry permit, years later, the standard was simple.

It only comes out when there is a threat, and then to be used. Period.

I even bought a S&W Ladysmith hammerless (Model 642) because it would be reliable to shoot out of a parka pocket without having to draw it. You can get a new coat. (After I got Mrs. Joe one to carry in her coat pocket or purse--it may only be a .38, but I liked it that much.)

I can't fathom someone more worried about getting into trouble than defending their spouse, but then, an old Sheriff told me once when discussing a threat, "If the threat is real, do what you need to do. Just make sure you are the one who fills out the paperwork."

28 posted on 05/14/2014 8:55:26 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: bgill
Those kinds of people need to be on the special action list.
29 posted on 05/14/2014 9:10:07 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Smokin' Joe

“I even bought a S&W Ladysmith hammerless (Model 642) because it would be reliable to shoot out of a parka pocket without having to draw it.”

That weapon is very similar to my Ruger 38 special hammerless and I added a red laser. It’s loaded with hollow point cartridges and is small to conceal easily. I read it’s a favorite of cops for their second weapon due to it being small with no exposed hammer.


30 posted on 05/14/2014 9:37:45 AM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Marcella
I figured I could get five rounds out of a parka pocket if confronted, and Mrs. Joe could do the same with a purse or out of pocket, so to speak. I love semi-autos, but being able to get the first and successive rounds off with the firearm still in the pocket with a high probability of success trumped the extra rounds.

It is so light, I can carry both.

Both are loaded with frangible rounds to eliminate through-and-through penetration and increase energy transfer. Not to be used lightly, but can be used without worrying about hitting others who may be behind a perp. The anticipation is that range will be short, possibly arm's length.

31 posted on 05/14/2014 9:51:13 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: redhawk.44mag

Very rarely unless I am traveling at night or through neighborhoods where it isn’t safe to be unarmed. I have a weapon in each vehicle that is accessible should I need one.


32 posted on 05/14/2014 10:28:36 AM PDT by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

What do you call a frangible round? What kind of cartridge?


33 posted on 05/14/2014 10:55:31 AM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: B4Ranch

Same here. Virginia is open-carry, but I’m not. I’m hoping for concealed carry without a permit someday.


34 posted on 05/14/2014 11:49:19 AM PDT by redhawk.44mag
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To: Marcella
This is what Mrs. Joe uses, although it is not a true frangible round: Hornady Critical Defense These are not to be confused with the Hornady Critical Duty rounds, and the difference is explained here.

Remington disintegrator ammo is a true frangible round, with the bullet composed of a jacket and a powdered metal core. here and another brand On impact, the bullet after short penetration peels open and the individual small grains of core material separate into the target. The wound channel is large, but relatively short, all the energy being transferred into the target, and little or no through and through penetration. These bullets have the added benefit of breaking up in drywall, so the chance of penetrating a wall and hitting someone on the other side with lethal results is greatly diminished. The results, to a soft target, however, are devastating.

I hope this answers your question, and I apologize for taking so long to reply.

35 posted on 05/14/2014 6:59:30 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thank you for that cartridge info. That is good ammo for short distance and that would likely be my situation. Thanks so much.


36 posted on 05/14/2014 7:07:17 PM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: Marcella

My pleasure! Keep in mind that if you think you may need to shoot through car doors, walls, auto glass, or the like, then frangible ammo, and even some of the high expansion ammo will not penetrate with lethal force because it fragments readily (as it is designed to do). The Critical Duty ammo was designed to pass through intervening light obstructions and still get the job done, which is why I included that information. I hope you never need it. Stay safe!


37 posted on 05/14/2014 9:15:50 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Kartographer; All

4 Reasons To Add a Pellet Air Gun To Your Survival Gun Arsenal
March 9, 2011 By Creek 121 Comments

You read the heading correct – I said Pellet Gun. Yes, the kind powered by air – just 1 step above a BB gun. I own many guns of many calibers and styles for many different purposes. Among these is a good quality Pellet Air Gun and it’s not just because I still have it from when I was a kid. I INTENTIONALLY have added this gun to my survival rifle options for very specific reasons…which I have detailed below. If you’ve never considered a Pellet Gun as a survival rifle option, you might change your mind after reading this post.

Next to my 12 Gauge Mossberg and my Ruger 10-22 sits a very cool and collected Benjamin Sheridan 392 .22 caliber Multi-Pump Pellet Gun and I treat it with the same respect as it is a very specialized soldier in my arsenal.
Benjamin Sheridan 392 .22 Cal Multi-Pump Pellet Gun

Benjamin Sheridan 392 .22 Cal Multi-Pump Pellet Gun

As a student and instructor of survival living, I take my gun choices very seriously and only add one to my cabinet if it deserves to be there. Below are 4 reasons (in no particular order) why a Pellet Gun deserves to be including in your Survival Rifle selection:
Survival Reason # 1: Excellent Small Game Hunter

A pellet gun, especially .22 caliber, is an excellent weapon to take down small game. While people have taken larger game such as wild boars with air guns, they are best suited for small game. Hunting small game is perfect for any survivalist. Rabbit, squirrel, dove, quail, duck and the like are excellent food sources and are readily available in most of the country. With practice, hunting small game with a pellet gun is absolutely no problem.
Small Game Hunter

Small Game Hunter

I have taken many small game animals with my .22 cal pellet gun. It requires better stalking skills, but that is a good skill to learn anyway. It requires better shooting skills, but that is also a good skill to hone in on. Hunting with a pellet gun will force you to be a BETTER hunter and it will also put dinner on the table. For an interesting photo gallery of pellet gun hunting kills visit: http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/gallery56-i-12.html
Survival Reason # 2: The AMMO

The Pellet Gun’s AMMO is one of the more convincing reasons to have one on hand. Pellets, no matter the caliber, are very cheap.
.177 cal Pellets - 500 Count for $10

.177 cal Pellets - 500 Count for $10

You can buy 100s of pellets for just a few bucks. Spend $50 and you’ve got enough to last a lifetime of small game hunting. If all hell breaks loose, traditional ammunition will become increasingly difficult to get your hands on. Not to mention that it will be ridiculously expensive. If the world we live in ever gets this way, why waste your traditional ammo on hunting squirrel or other small game? That would be wasteful and careless if there was a smarter way. There is – PELLETS.
1000s of Pellets Fit into Small Spaces

1000s of Pellets Fit into Small Spaces

Not only are pellets DIRT CHEAP, they are very small. You can carry 1000s and not even know they are there. You can store 10s of 1000s in just 1 shoe box. To top it off, pellets have a shelf life of pretty much FOREVER! Traditional ammunition can go bad over time. Especially with the talks of giving ammunition an expiration date, stocking a few 1000 pellets isn’t a bad idea.

Worse case scenario you could use all these extra pellets to reload your shot-gun shells.
Reload Empty Shotgun Shells With Pellets

Reload Empty Shotgun Shells With Pellets

Survival Reason # 3: Silent Shooter

Forget the earplugs. These guns are silent. In many survival scenarios, a silent weapon is a good thing. Not only can you hunt without drawing attention to yourself or your family, but shooting a silent weapon often means you can get off more than 1 shot if there are multiple targets. Both of these are positive. People pay 1000s of $$$ to make their guns silent. No extra charge for the pellet gun.
Survival Reason # 4: Powered By Air

You don’t have to buy air. And, it’s never going to be out of stock. For this reason, I prefer either a MULTI-PUMP or BREAK-BARREL Pellet Air Gun. I have opted NOT to purchase a CO2 or pneumatic powered air gun. Needing to refill canisters or tanks doesn’t make any sense in a survival situation. You want to keep it as old fashioned as possible. It’s hand pump all the way for this survivalist.
Break-Barrel Survival Pellet Guns

Break-Barrel Survival Pellet Guns

There are tons of options when it comes to Hand Pump or Break Barrel guns. They both come in .177 and .22 calibers. The fps varies depending on the gun. My Multi-Pump Sheridan shoots 850 fps but there are models out there that shoot upwards of 1250 fps which rivals some rim-fire cartridges. Like anything, the details are personal choices. However, I definitely suggest a PUMP or BREAK-BARREL so that you can manually charge your air chamber rather than being dependant on other air supply products.

So there you have it, 4 solid reasons why I keep a Pellet Gun in my survival arsenal.

I hope this has been useful information and as always I would love you hear your thoughts and comments.

Cheers-

Creek

A good read


38 posted on 05/29/2014 7:00:36 AM PDT by TMSuchman (John 15;13 & Exodus 21:22-25 Pacem Bello Pastoribus Canes [shepard of peace,dogs of war])
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