Posted on 03/24/2015 6:20:04 AM PDT by Reaganite Republican
And at what time was this?
You reference the Moncada Barracks attack below.
The Moncada Barracks attack involved 165 guerrillas, whose names are known and who were all either arrested or killed.
The ones who were arrested were held over for trial. Some were acquitted, some were imprisoned.
That was the end of El Movimiento, and Castro went into exile two years later when he was amnestied.
When he returned, he affiliated with the Partido Ortodoxo and started the Sierra Manifesto.
So are you saying that Rafael Cruz was one of the Moncaderos?
Oh, please.
It is one thing to generally be a supporter of anti-Batista movements and factions, participate in protests, and then leave the country in disgust on a student visa, say, when Batista survives an assassination attempt in March 1957.
It is another thing to blow up buildings.
Correction: points (4) and (5) in post 39 are not statements by Senator Cruz, but my commentary following his statements (1), (2), (3).
I’m not your daddy, you sound like a child.
If you want to attack Cruz, you are going to have to prove he is lying and then post your information.
This troll method of attacking by insinuation is just trolling.
Why are you trolling against Cruz’s father? If you can show him lying, then do it.
Cruz fought and was a revolutionary with Castro, was imprisoned and tortured, and Cruz fled Cuba.
Your continuing to lie about him and misrepresent him, is strange, why are you doing it?
Not sure where I made that claim.
you sound like a child
I guess you haven't spent much time around children.
Personal insults don't bolster your arguments.
If you want to attack Cruz, you are going to have to prove he is lying and then post your information.
I am not attacking Senator Cruz, and have no interest in making him out to be a liar.
From where I'm standing, the worst thing you can say about Senator Cruz is that his father may have told him some stories about his youth that were more colorful than the circumstances warrant.
That's not a bad reflection on the Senator - just the opposite.
This troll method of attacking by insinuation is just trolling.
You like that word, apparently. But "troll" is not a synonym for "disagrees with ansel12."
Why are you trolling against Cruz’s father? If you can show him lying, then do it.
The statement that someone who was a bomb-throwing revolutionary was also given a coveted opportunity to obtain a US visa by the government he was throwing bombs against is hard to just accept at face value.
And I didn't think that the purpose of this forum was to just accept anecdotes at face value.
Rafael Cruz has a pretty amazing story - it would be good for both the historical record and for his son's campaign to share all the details.
No one rational would fault the Senator for believing everything his father told him.
What does having been part of the revolution from 1952/53 through 1957 a long with Castro, have to do with when Castro finally defeated Batista?
What arguments, until you can prove them lying, what is there to argue?
“I’m not sure that Batista tortured Rafael Cruz, or that Cruz fought for Castro.
Batista’s malfeasance has been greatly exaggerated by history, and the numbers of those claiming to have fought with Castro in the early years seems to have rapidly inflated.
It seems much more likely to me that Rafael Cruz was one of the 99.99% of Cubans in 1957 who were neither imprisoned by Batista nor running around in mountain camps with Castro.
20 posted on 3/24/2015, 7:01:54 AM by wideawake”
With the first version of Castro's forces at the Moncada Barracks in 1953?
Or with the second version of Castro's forces in the Sierra Maestras insurgency in 1957?
Only a small handful of people, probably less than 100, fought with Castro through both versions.
was imprisoned and tortured,
But not put on trial like the rest of the Moncaderos? Just held secretly and released secretly without any records?
and Cruz fled Cuba.
He left, certainly. I see we''ve now moved from "escaped" to "fled."
Anyone who lived in Cuba from 1952 to 1959 can claim to have been imprisoned by Batista.
It certainly could have happened.
But when I am told that it was a secret imprisonment at an Army base, it raises a lot of questions.
Why would hundreds of revolutionaries been put on trial, executed or imprisoned - on the official record - in Cuba, but others be held secretly?
Were these revolutionaries more dangerous than Castro? Why could he be imprisoned publicly but a bomb-thrower would have to be held without any records?
There is an unresolved contradiction, that any objective observer would have to concede.
LOL, child, why are you making up fake posts and creating dates and places and specificities that have nothing to do with the conversation or possibly Rafael’s specific role, to imply that Cruz is lying?
Rafael does not have to have ever met Castro, or been in his particular attacks, Rafael had his own role as a revolutionary alongside the other revolutionaries and Castro.
Cruz did escape Cuba, he escaped and he fled, he was also jailed and tortured for his revolutionary activities, why are you calling him a liar on that, when he says it straight out?
You also lied when you claimed that you weren’t calling him a liar.
What is this about troll? Give us a clue why you are acting so freakishly and dishonestly.
Look at you, like a raving child.
Now you think that he could be telling the truth about his own jailing and torture.
But then you continue asking me questions like a child “”Why would hundreds of revolutionaries been put on trial, executed or imprisoned - on the official record - in Cuba, but others be held secretly?
Were these revolutionaries more dangerous than Castro? Why could he be imprisoned publicly but a bomb-thrower would have to be held without any records?””
Why are you so insistent that Cruz is lying, what is your trolling game about?
Where is all this greasy, dishonest, troll passion, coming from? Is it his religion? His politics?
There is the fact that Castro was serving a public, judicial prison sentence from October 1953 to May 1955.
And that Castro lived in Mexico from late 1955 to December 1956.
So, for three years, there was no free Castro in Cuba to fight alongside.
Very few people fought with Castro in 1953, even fewer were members of his group while he was in prison or abroad, and his group did not start to grow much above 300 or so partisans until after the failed assassination attempt on Batista in March 1957 which Castro condemned.
So the number of people who fought with Castro between 1952 and 1957 probably peaked around 300, more than half of whom were officially imprisoned and another 55 of which were publicly held over for trial and acquitted.
If Rafael Cruz was a dedicated guerrilla fighter from 1952-1957 he was one of a very rarified crew.
If he was secretly imprisoned during this time, as opposed to those publicly imprisoned along with Castro, he is rarer still.
If so, and you have clearly walked back your position, then why is his name not mentioned in the exhaustive histories of the anti-Batista movement?
he was also jailed and tortured for his revolutionary activities
On some occasions we have heard "jailed" and "beaten" on others "imprisoned" and "tortured."
Words mean things, and there is a big difference.
Give us a clue why you are acting so freakishly and dishonestly.
Why am I asking questions?
For two reasons:
(1) I am a student of anti-Communism, and therefore have also studied Castro's history. The various anecdotes I have heard attributed to Rafael Cruz don't fit into what we previously know about the history of Cuba.
So there's an academic interest.
(2) The MSM has picked up on both Marco Rubio's and Ted Cruz's parents' accounts of their experiences in Cuba, and it would make sense for their campaigns to nail down all the details and be proactive.
You keep posting irrelevant information, meaningless dates and locations, why?
And in keeping with your sleazy dishonesty, you now have Cruz, not as a part of the revolution, as a participant, but as a “”dedicated guerrilla fighter from 1952-1957 “”.
Just like you created the “secretly imprisoned during this time, as opposed to those publicly imprisoned “.
What is your game, troll? Give us a hint of why you are trolling this so hard and so bitterly.
Is this about Cruz being a Minister?
Rafael Cruz has a fascinating story to tell about a well-documented and very important time in world history.
Rather than hear the story second-hand from his son, or third-hand from reporters reporting on the second-hand account of his son, I'd like to hear his story in his words.
Also, you might want to step back and take a few deep breaths.
You seem like you're getting very worked up.
Unless he was imprisoned in no particular place, at no particular time, then dates and locations are meaningful.
As you said earlier, this is a bio. Biographies have dates and places in them.
Another lie, I haven’t walked back any “position”, and look, yet another childish question “why is his name not mentioned in the exhaustive histories of the anti-Batista movement?” evidently they don’t list every Molotov throwing revolutionary teen that escaped by 1957, are you now claiming that they do?
What is this child’s game of pretending that using jailed, imprisoned, beaten, tortured, escaped, fled, is all so confusing and evidence that Cruz is lying?
Are you on medication? You seem hyper and confused.
You are creating a mess of nothings to imply Cruz is lying, and you are totally without substance, it is just troll smoke and mirrors, the more BS you throw down, the more you think you can fake people out.
But why? What would make you so embarrass yourself by showing this lack of character you are displaying?
No, if you want to prove him a liar, then you need to find your information and prove it to us, asking me if I can name which base he was held and tortured at, and me not knowing, is not the kind of evidence you will need to prove Minister Cruz, a liar.
Which is your twisted obsession.
What can drive you to be so obsessed with trying to convince people that the Cruz s are lying?
I'll make the following statement, let me know if you agree or disagree with it:
When someone throws bombs and blows up buildings with the goal of overthrowing a government, and that government secretly imprisons and tortures that person, it is highly unlikely that the same government would just let him go and help him get a student visa abroad.
Part of the story - maybe the most interesting part - is missing.
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