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In need of assistance in debate about Socialism

Posted on 05/21/2015 10:57:10 AM PDT by youngphys01

So I am in a debate with colleagues about the future of capitalism and socialism and they are claiming that with the rise of automation, capitalism will fail as an economic system and the only way to prevent mass starvation and severe poverty i to implement all of the socialist ideas of Obama, Elizabeth Warren, Nancy Pelosi and others and do it now. The idea is that with the rise of automation technology, any job that depends on manual labor and repetitive actions will simply be gone and tons of construction and other jobs will disappear. And so there will be millions upon millions of jobs that will not exist and so there will be many millions of people who will be homeless and dying of disease and starvation unless they get a living income regardless of whether or not they are working.

The argument is that a Capitalist society will not be sustainable since it will only be possible for a minority of Americans to work for a living the way we see it now. And so they are arguing that we need socialism, perhaps even going into communism now, in order to make the transition feasible without mass homelessness and starvation.

How would you go about refuting this argument?

I am looking for assistance in addressing and countering this argument in favor of capitalism.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Education; Government
KEYWORDS: communism; freedom; freemarket; socialism
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To: youngphys01

True, it’s working out so well for Venezuela, oh wait.


61 posted on 05/21/2015 3:34:10 PM PDT by VTenigma (The Democratic party is the party of the mathematically challenged)
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To: Rad_J

But what jobs are going to exist in a world where almost everything is made by printers and/or robots? It’s a nice panacea to look at the past and say “well we always find something” but past performance isn’t always a predictor. Because the past didn’t have quite this level of technical jump. Previous tech jump went from needing people to do X to needing people to do Y, this round is looking to not need people to do anything other than consume.

India and China have been losing jobs to automation too. The global manufacturing sector is simply using less people to make more stuff.


62 posted on 05/21/2015 3:36:42 PM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: discostu

There will always be a Target, women have to shop, it’s in their jeans.

What we are combating is socialism, where the state decides which medicines we can buy, which companies it is going to tax or regulate.

I’m not going to walk or ride a bike to a bus to sit next to some crazy woman that slaps her shoe next to my face (it happened to me recently), then get on a train to go to work. Not going to happen. But that is exactly what my state and city is spending our transportation taxes on.

California’s EPA is chasing manufacturing out of state and now Texas has surpassed us.

Change has already happened, it is up to us to be prepared for it and I’m already up to speed.


63 posted on 05/21/2015 3:42:30 PM PDT by Haddit (Minimalists Al Gore and Al Qaeda)
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To: Haddit

But they can shop online. And do, in increasing levels. In a 3D printed world where your computer knows your dimensions and can modify the item to fit you shopping gets a lot more fun. No more “well it looks nice but it doesn’t fit”, it WILL fit.

This goes way beyond economic philosophies and how you get to work. This is a question of what percentage of people will we even NEED to have work to go to.

If you don’t see what’s going on with 3D printers and automation as changing the very fabric of how we make and distribute good you aren’t up to speed. Forget the government, they’ve never had the ability to render change the way technology does. We are right now in the process of making all driving jobs a thing of the past. We are right now in the process of making most manufacturing jobs a thing of the past. We are right now in the process of making most selling jobs a thing of the past. The government doesn’t get a say in this. Much like they didn’t have a say in the internet for 25 years. The government will turn around 25 years after this revolution and say “woh, something big just happened”.


64 posted on 05/21/2015 3:49:28 PM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: discostu

I’ve been a design engineer since 1972. I helped design computer hard drives in 1977, and then printers, then office computers. In the late 80’s I bought a Timex Sinclair computer, in 1987 I took a CAD class (1 week), in 1988 I built my first computer, in 1992 I bought a domain name and thinking that whoever controlled the Yellow Pages could make a killing, I mapped my entire city of 100,000 people and placed every retailer on that map. People still didn’t know what the internet was and thought I was crazy, this was before Google.

Two years ago I bought a 3D printer, and while it is ok for proving a design, I’m waiting for something better to come along. To get a 3D part you can do it two ways, scan it or draw it. When you draw it, in 3D, you can get a lot more accuracy, then you convert the file to a printable file that is not easily changed, that is what you distribute, you keep the original drawing, no one else needs it. Because you have the original drawing, it is easily improved and redistributed only by you.

I realize that the socialist are pushing a livable wage and a guaranteed income. Jerry Brown has been pushing that since 1995. If you can manufacture something without depending on anyone else then what you earn will depend on how imaginative you are.

Jerry Brown from 1995
http://nation.foxnews.com/jerry-brown/2010/10/14/jerry-brown-flashback-we-need-more-welfare-and-fewer-jobs


65 posted on 05/21/2015 4:43:32 PM PDT by Haddit (Minimalists Al Gore and Al Qaeda)
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To: Bidimus1
Hayek:

>>

Kenyanesian

66 posted on 05/21/2015 6:43:52 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: youngphys01
If robots do everything - including make more robots, at a geometrically increasing rate - the price of everything will go to zero.

67 posted on 05/21/2015 7:20:46 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion ('Liberalism' is a conspiracy against the public by wire-service journalism.)
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To: discostu
self-driving-trucks-are-going-to-kill-jobs-and-not-just for drivers

This article says the first self driving road legal truck was approved last month. And it says it will put 3.5 million drivers out of work. But it also says it will kill many of the businesses that cater to them like restaurants and motels. Also think traffic tickets, repair shops, even medical businesses will be hurt by the loss of injuries in wrecks.

That's a lot of people. The risk of labor dislocations really is much higher this go around. And it will probably put a lot of people out of work who are going to be difficult to retrain. There is still a big question as to how fast those people are put out of work.

I do think we are going to have to have bigger safety nets. But I also think it would be a huge mistake to turn our backs on the capitalistic model. No other model will find new employment opportunities as fast. No other model will drive invention or investment like capitalism.

68 posted on 05/21/2015 7:29:48 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: discostu
self-driving-trucks-are-going-to-kill-jobs-and-not-just for drivers

This article says the first self driving road legal truck was approved last month. And it says it will put 3.5 million drivers out of work. But it also says it will kill many of the businesses that cater to them like restaurants and motels. Also think traffic tickets, repair shops, even medical businesses will be hurt by the loss of injuries in wrecks.

That's a lot of people. The risk of labor dislocations really is much higher this go around. And it will probably put a lot of people out of work who are going to be difficult to retrain. There is still a big question as to how fast those people are put out of work.

I do think we are going to have to have bigger safety nets. But I also think it would be a huge mistake to turn our backs on the capitalistic model. No other model will find new employment opportunities as fast. No other model will drive invention or investment like capitalism.

69 posted on 05/21/2015 7:29:49 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: discostu

But jobs have been evolving since the industrial revolution. Before there were millions of manufacturing jobs, there were ions of farming jobs. Now a single person can farm acres of land by themselves and a tractor. Automation killed off most of the farming jobs and they are never coming back. No problem, we moved to the cities.

A hundred years ago they could never have imagined a world with millions of computer jobs and millions of smartphone jobs. Just like now we have no idea what type of jobs we will have 100 years from now or if those jobs will even be on earth.

But I do know that those 1’s and 0’s have added trillions of dollars to the U.S. economy.


70 posted on 05/21/2015 8:55:11 PM PDT by Rad_J
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To: youngphys01

It didn’t happen as farming became automated. I cant imagine a more telling example.


71 posted on 05/21/2015 9:05:09 PM PDT by gogeo (If you are Tea Party, the eGOP does not want you.)
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To: Haddit

3D printers are evolving at the rate that your printer was post dated 6 months after you bought it. They’re getting better every generation. they even have ones that do clothing now, though they admit not terribly well.

Once you distribute your design it’s out in the world and somebody can share it. Just look at Pirate Bay. IP is dead in a lossless copy world.


72 posted on 05/22/2015 7:58:37 AM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: DannyTN

And that’s just long haul trucks. Once that technology is proven it will take over short haul, cabs, buses, trains, and boats.

I don’t know about turning our back on any model. But we need to comprehend how we expect people to function in a world that can produce a very high standard of living for every one with only enough jobs for maybe 25% of the population.


73 posted on 05/22/2015 8:03:52 AM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: Rad_J

The difference between this wave of tech and previous ones is that those wave made it so we no longer needed people to do X but we now needed them to do Y. We didn’t need guys running plows behind animals anymore, but we had tractors that needed driving. This wave though has no Y. Look at post 69 and that link. Once we get self driving vehicles fully adopts that’s it, we no longer need the Xs of long or short truck drivers, train conductors, bus drivers, taxi drivers or boat captains. And there’s no Y. Once you can print most of the contents of Target at home we no longer need the Xs of all that manufacturing, all that shipping, and all that selling. And again no Y.

Adding trillions to the economy != making jobs. We’re right now transition to a world where we can have a very high standard of living with very few people actually doing anything. 47% of the populace is on some dole or another, and most of them have smartphones and cable. It’s an interesting world coming.


74 posted on 05/22/2015 8:11:06 AM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: DannyTN
Did you see the episode of The Big Bang Theory where Sheldon stays in bed while his robot self gets around in his place? Things are going fine until he has to open his office door.

Who is going to refill the gas tank on a driverless truck when the 3.5 million drivers are displaced? Will the truck be smart enough to plan a fuel stop or is it only programmed to follow GPS and not hit anything?

-PJ

75 posted on 05/22/2015 8:17:12 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too (If you are the Posterity of We the People, then you are a Natural Born Citizen.)
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To: discostu
We’re right now transition to a world where we can have a very high standard of living with very few people actually doing anything.

But people need goals and adversities to be overcome reaching them - a struggle for survival. Remove all the natural threats from their environment and they begin to invent and imagine new ones, like "white privilege".

76 posted on 05/22/2015 8:20:57 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

We don’t need a struggle. Well not everybody. Yes some folks are addicted to drama and make crap up if life can’t provide it for them. Most folks are perfectly OK with living the casual life and their only adversity being there’s more shows they want to record on at the same time than the DVR can handle. That majority doesn’t generate headlines so nobody finds out about them. But really we don’t need adversity, hell the whole point of adult decisions is to make it so you can look BACK on when you used to have adversity... on a comfortable couch... with an expensive drink in your hand.


77 posted on 05/22/2015 8:31:20 AM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: discostu
But really we don’t need adversity, hell the whole point of adult decisions is to make it so you can look BACK on when you used to have adversity... on a comfortable couch... with an expensive drink in your hand.

But if you never had that adversity, you never had any need or incentive to learn to make adult decisions.

78 posted on 05/22/2015 8:38:40 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tacticalogic

Sure you do. For one thing there’s always going to be a little adversity. Life has lumps for all of us to swallow, our heart will be broken, will will bury relatives and friends, not all things work out even for the most comfortable. And you can always learn because there’s nothing better to do today. Most of my learning has been picking up books on topics of interest, with the only adversity being a dull afternoon.

I’ve never believed in the sanctity of adversity. I think it’s a trap of bad thinking. It doesn’t make good character, and it doesn’t provide admirable goals, and should be avoided as much as possible. The only lesson adversity ever really provides is that sometimes life sucks, which really doesn’t teach much.


79 posted on 05/22/2015 8:54:13 AM PDT by discostu (Bobby, I'm sorry you have a head like a potato.)
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To: discostu
I’ve never believed in the sanctity of adversity. I think it’s a trap of bad thinking. It doesn’t make good character, and it doesn’t provide admirable goals, and should be avoided as much as possible. The only lesson adversity ever really provides is that sometimes life sucks, which really doesn’t teach much.

It teaches that sometimes life sucks, and implicitly that you're not entitled to a life that doesn't.

80 posted on 05/22/2015 9:16:51 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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