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Waco Bikers And The Blackstone Ratio
Motorcycle Profiling Project ^ | June 12, 2015 | David Devereaux

Posted on 06/29/2015 8:23:31 AM PDT by don-o

All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.”

Why Do The Due Process Concerns Of Innocents Outweigh The State Interest Of Convicting Those That Are Responsible For The Shooting In Waco?

The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860’s named Sir William Blackstone, is commonly accepted as a cornerstone of civil liberties and a free society. Closely related to the idea that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, the Blackstone Ratio means that democratic societies do not sacrifice the liberties of the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Democratic societies accept that prioritizing civil liberties of individuals means some guilty people will escape justice in order to preserve a free society.

In a totalitarian society the opposite is true. Totalitarian governments consider the state’s interest in punishing criminals more important than the collateral damage created by innocents suffering in the process. Totalitarian governments believe that casting dragnets to capture the guilty is justified because it is motivated by the goal of reducing crime and insuring the safety of its citizens.

Certainly it is true that all governments have a compelling state interest to reduce crime and punish the guilty. This is even true in democratic societies. It is even reasonable to say that this interest is based on the belief that people in society have the right to be safe from criminal activity. But the state, in an attempt to accomplish its interests, will eventually come in conflict with personal liberties. So how does the American democratic system determine which interests are more important?

Oftentimes rights come in conflict and compete for priority. When they do, the American criminal justice system says we must balance these rights based on the intent and purpose of the Constitution and the impact on civil liberties generally. The Bill of Rights irrefutably places critical priority on the sanctity of individual rights over draconian police arrests and incarcerations justified by state interests like reducing crime or general public safety.

There is no better example than Waco to demonstrate how the state’s interest in punishing the guilty has come in conflict with the civil liberties of innocents and potential eyewitnesses. Regardless of what the currently unreleased facts ultimately reveal about what happened in Waco, it defies reason to assert that more than 170 individuals could possibly have committed a crime or be deserving of $1 million dollar bonds.

As has been widely reported, the Waco PD made it very clear that many of the more than 170 individuals arrested were arrested because of their associations with motorcycle clubs allegedly involved in the Waco shooting. There was absolutely no evidence specified, other than mere organizational association, establishing particularized or specific probable cause for any of the individuals arrested. This is evidenced by the fact that every single arrest was based on an identical and generic fill-in the name affidavit.

It has also been made clear, in complete violation of an individual’s 5th Amendment right to remain silent, that prosecutors and judges imposed $1 million dollar bonds on every individual arrested based on the gravity of the crime scene and the non-cooperation of those arrested. Bail is intended to insure that an individual does not flee. It is not intended to be a punitive measure. And the right not to be forced into statements of self-incrimination is elementary, understood by almost everyone, particularly those that work in the judiciary system like prosecutors and judges.

Mere membership in a group, even a group that contains convicted felons, does not establish probable cause. As articulated by a recent ACLU press release related to Waco, “While all the facts of this tragic incident are still unclear, we do know that if any of the more than 170 arrests were based solely on membership in a group, the Constitution demands more, including probable cause. Mere membership in a group should never be the basis of an arrest. And dragnet arrests raise the specter of overzealous police work, just like we’ve seen at our border and in cities around the country.”

It cannot credibly be argued that the Waco arrest and punitive bond tactics employed by law enforcement and government authorities is not resulting in the suffering of innocents. While incarcerated, innocent people are separated from their families, loved ones, employers, and the enjoyment of every civil liberty enjoyed by free citizens. Many of the accused are still incarcerated. And even those that have been released had to pay a bond and agree to further restrictions on behavior and associations.

So how should this have been handled? It’s not my job to decide how law enforcement does its job beyond demanding, and hoping that others demand, that whatever tactics employed respect baseline constitutional principles and individual liberties in order to protect the innocent and the foundations of a free society.

There is a reason the Blackstone Ratio is a critical component of a democratic criminal justice system. Everyone, not just bikers, should be deeply concerned about tactics that cause innocents to suffer. And this is true even if it means the guilty escape prosecution. Sure, rounding up and arresting every biker, or catholic, or Muslim, or teenager with a trench coat, or eyewitness to a crime will most likely include those responsible for the crime being investigated. But these draconian dragnets also ensnare innocent people that suffer from damage to their families, employment, reputations, finances, and the enjoyment of the basic freedoms intended to be guaranteed to every American.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: texas; texasgatortroll; waco; wacobikers; wildhogs
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To: AMDG&BVMH

Yeah, the bikers’ own statements match up with the indictment on that stuff, the only thing that doesn’t match is the apologists’ stories around here.


81 posted on 06/30/2015 6:29:46 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman; Finny

” the apologists’ stories “

If I hadn’t read so many of Finny’s posts I would be sure that he wrote this as sarcasm ...


I’m starting to feel like an idiot — I believed that because the Bandidos are a “Tier two” criminal gang according to police and I’ve heard biker friends say they’ve heard of bad ones, I bought into the Hells Angel myth. The Bandidos look very much like a pretty square manly club of Veteran dudes who are trying to change that bad image in a biker brotherhood. Their patch is positively benign. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so crazy tragic and like a slow train wreck, a bad novel.


82 posted on 06/30/2015 6:33:58 AM PDT by TexasGator
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To: TexasGator; Finny

It’s kind of too pathetic to even respond to. The largest criminal biker gang in the state is now just a bunch of vets out for a Sunday ride?

I mean, who is going to be dumb enough to believe that?


83 posted on 06/30/2015 7:11:12 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Jack Black

Thank you for your post. One question about the following:

“And growing up in Detroit both the Outlaws and the Highwaymen were not people you wanted to be around, even casually. “

I believe that the Bandidos certainly fit that category also. That said, why would decent bikers select them to be the leaders in the various chapters of the Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents?


84 posted on 06/30/2015 7:24:45 AM PDT by TexasGator
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To: Boomer

All those ‘choirboys’ involved just meeting to discuss motorcycle safety will be getting new careers, making license plates.


85 posted on 06/30/2015 7:26:49 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: X-spurt

“All those ‘choirboys’ involved just meeting to discuss motorcycle safety will be getting new careers, making license plates.”

I wonder what the attendance figures will be for the next BAndidos Confederation meeting will be?


86 posted on 06/30/2015 7:33:05 AM PDT by TexasGator
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To: don-o

Probably talking about COMMON SENSE everyone there should have known.

All associated with any gang knew exactly what this was about, turf. Now that was very grown up of them wasn’t it?

What everyone other than you sniveling criminal bike gang sympathizer apologists knows is these outlaw trash thugs are getting what they deserve.


87 posted on 06/30/2015 7:34:45 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: X-spurt
Translation: Source is your opinion.

I guess you're not confident in the poison you use for the well; so you need to keep dumping more in.

88 posted on 06/30/2015 7:40:16 AM PDT by don-o (I am Kenneth Carlisle - Waco 5/17/15)
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To: Boogieman

Not one of these bike gang hoodlum characters or their admiring wannabes here give a damn about truth or logic. They instead failingly are trying to practice some liberal style victimhood ploy for the violent dregs of society. Hands up Don’t shoot!


89 posted on 06/30/2015 7:45:11 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: X-spurt

Yep, and the sad thing is, people are falling for it. I wonder why. Is it because these criminals are old white guys and not young black guys?


90 posted on 06/30/2015 8:09:53 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: TexasGator
"http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/29/black-lives-matter-protesters-disrupt-chicago-gay-pride-parade/" ...I took this as sarcasm.
91 posted on 06/30/2015 8:52:07 AM PDT by Jack Black ( Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocide.)
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To: Jack Black
You might be interested in this story from a couple of years ago involving the Bandidos & one of their puppet clubs called Ressurection extorting a motorcycle store owner outside Olympia.

Feds: Outlaw biker behind hostile takeover of Tumwater cycle shop

92 posted on 06/30/2015 9:43:20 AM PDT by mac_truck (Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
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To: TexasGator
Sorry, *this* is what I took as sarcasm, based on the tone:

I’m starting to feel like an idiot — I believed that because the Bandidos are a “Tier two” criminal gang according to police and I’ve heard biker friends say they’ve heard of bad ones, I bought into the Hells Angel myth. The Bandidos look very much like a pretty square manly club of Veteran dudes who are trying to change that bad image in a biker brotherhood. Their patch is positively benign. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so crazy tragic and like a slow train wreck, a bad novel.

But maybe I was mistaken.

93 posted on 06/30/2015 10:13:58 AM PDT by Jack Black ( Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocide.)
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To: mad_as_he$$; don-o

Of course criminals have right too. The right to a fair trial, the right to remain silent.

Personally I am happy to give criminal bike gang thugs the same rights they give their victims of terrorizing, intimidation, denying others the right to association, beating someone with a hammer for some ‘rocker’, murdered for ‘disrespecting’, selling kids the really bad drugs like crack/meth/heroin, stealing and destroying peoples property. Oh, and how about the rights of the girls they force into prostitution?

When they begin respecting everyone else’s rights, they can have theirs back. Otherwise as long as they and any of their sniveling groupies are presenting themselves in public dressed like and acting like hoodlums, they will be treated as hoodlums they so diligently try to portray.


94 posted on 06/30/2015 11:24:23 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: MrEdd

Still see ya void of any horse sense, Mr. Ed.

None of us that counter your false narrative here on FR assume all motorcycle riders are tools of the devil. We all know and have friends that ride peacefully.

That pretending to be tools of the devil is the role many such as your heros the bike gangers and wannabes obviously want to portray in some terroristic ploy to push law abiding citizens around and deny everyone else their Constitutional Rights.


95 posted on 06/30/2015 11:37:53 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: Jack Black

Along with your intentional misrepresenting the criminality of bike gangs, you here try to legitimize the clearly biased OPINION piece written by David Devereaux by falsely calling it an article.


96 posted on 06/30/2015 11:42:47 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: Jack Black

no reasonable and particular evidence against many of them, they were just at the event

And you know this by what objective verifiable fact? Or is this just more of the cover-up narrative?


97 posted on 06/30/2015 11:51:10 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: Finny

Bull Shit is right!
Criminal thugs are criminals 100% of the time unless they have paid their price to society and no longer participate or associate with criminals.


98 posted on 06/30/2015 11:56:29 AM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: don-o

You post drivel, I counter, EVERYTIME I see it. Unless of course something nefarious occurs like a house dropping on me.......


99 posted on 06/30/2015 12:03:34 PM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: X-spurt

“All those ‘choirboys’ involved just meeting to discuss motorcycle safety will be getting new careers, making license plates.”

I didn’t realize the cops were there to discuss motorcycle safety too. Hmmm... learn something new every day. I would be more interested in seeing the person or people who gave the order to massacre the bikers have to pay for their high crimes. Even if it was an unlawful order given to those on the ground; it was still an order. Aww heck. Let’s just see justice for all of them; including any bikers who may have started the episode making sure to compensate all the others handsomely who were just there or were trying to protect themselves from lawless police or bikers; whichever the case may be.

I don’t believe most police are corrupt; but some sure are. It’s looking like there is a nest of them in Waco. The longer this drags on the worse the police look. The more they try to keep info from the public and those they accused of a crime; the worse the police and prosecutors in Waco look and by extension. The state judiciary.

Those being accused have the right to see the evidence against them and to face their accusers when that time comes if these cases are not dismissed long before then. Then it comes down to the civil actions against those who broke the law and ruined so many lives.


100 posted on 06/30/2015 12:28:11 PM PDT by Boomer (America; love it or leave it. It isn't just a bumper sticker.)
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