Posted on 04/24/2018 5:49:39 PM PDT by PROCON
I Know, really
Can a solar set up for a home drive 230 volt needs such as ranges, A/C, dryers and electric heaters?
Reminds me of the first phony gas shortage in the fall of 1973, Orange & Rockland, our utility co. put out a series of newspaper ads and PSA’s on the local radio station to conserve gas and electricity. I helped my dear old Dad put up clear plastic over the windows, my Mom would make sure none of us would dare walk out of a room without turning off the lights and TV, she also turned the thermostat down to around 65, warning us not to even think about laying a finger on it. Sure enough, the gas & electric bill went down. But then the chairman of O&R got on the radio and had the chutzpah to say that they petitioned the NY public utility commission, and received permission to raise the rates, because everyone did such a good job conserving energy, their bottom line was negatively impacted.
not to mention, the optimum life of a solar panel is around 10 years in high UV areas (like SoCal). Expansion and contraction causes them to eventually leak, and leaking means corrosion. And, the hotter it gets over 95, which is practically every day in SoCal for 2 seasons, the less the energy conversion at the panel (they don’t like hot, either), with an efficiency of about 35%-new, and dropping with time in service. So most panels will be pushing it to last as long as the 20-year financing does.
Excellent insights. Thanks.
An electrical engineer back in the 80’s proposed a design for a magnetically levitated, electrically driven, kinetic energy storage system. He originally thought-up the design as a way to power launch devices to propel payloads into Earth orbit less expensively than rockets. Later, he realized such a storage system would initially be most likely used as a peak leveling system in an electrical grid. Scaled large enough, the device could store sufficient energy from intermittent sources to provide smooth delivery on a 24 hour basis.
The continuous iron ribbon driven element is actively levitated, with it’s path magnetically guided to form an elongated racetrack to loop back to a starting point. Linear induction motor/generators move power between electrical and kinetic forms at better than 98% efficiency. An actively controlled series of magnets holds the ribbon at a nominal operating distance from all components of the guide-way and magnetic diverter guide elements. The system is housed in a vacuum to mitigate energy losses from interaction of the kinetic component traveling at 11 km. second with atmosphere. Also the device would be placed in a tunnel sufficiently deep in the ground to contain all the energy released during a loss of ribbon type of accident.
The concept probably is valid, as a company in Finland is pursuing a storage design with many attributes of the original proposal. Their design unfortunately only alleviates some of the limitations of flywheels as energy storage devices.
I have some Kyocera modules that ran in temps between ninety-something and minus-51 (Fahrenheit) for about six years (mostly colder temps). They’re still good and produce with about the same efficiency. That’s all I know about longevity for those except for some of the favorable reports about modules auctioned off from large power plants after 20 years or so (probably high quality modules).
For an off-grid power plant, the battery cost is the highest component cost over time. If the batteries are, say, Crown lead-acid batteries and are well maintained by the owner, even that cost is not too bad.
On a self-install, it’s really a small cost for a minimal or medium sized array if averaged out to a monthly cost. If the install is “professional,” the monthly average cost of a whole, off-grid plant can range from about the cost of a common electric bill to outrageously high. Depends on the neighborhood and the installer.
I’m not an installer, by the way, but I have lived miles from the nearest power company hookup before. That kind of situation is a motivator. It’s really nice in a number of ways, though, for a do-it-yourself-er with a willingness to learn about safety first and some electrical work experience and attention to the National Electrical Code. For one thing, a well installed and maintained PV system can be more dependable than power from the nearest power company. A private PV solar plant isn’t as spread out or subjected to as many hazards in most places.
You have to spend money, to save money! Or something like that...
Save for reference
well I can tell you that mine don’t register as producing anything at night.
The price might be falling but that is the cost of power under peak conditions. And solar and wind are never available at peak conditions 24 hours a day.
This was always the fraud of solar and wind. Unless you’re willing to only use electricity during that 1/3 to 1/2 of the day when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, then you need to have a separate set of generators that provide backup. Meaning, you are paying twice for your installed base. And the most efficient part of the base is not the primary source of electricity but is the backup (facepalm).
You have to include the cost of the backup with the cost of electricity that you charge your customers.
Using numbers — the duty factor of solar is about 25% of peak over a 24 hour period, on average, over a year. The duty factor of a gas-burning generator is 99.5%.
Post #14 is spot on. Also, the price your son is credited per kw-hr is not the wholesale price that the utility would pay to purchase the electricity; it is the retail price the utility would sell it. So the utility can’t charge them for the backup capacity and is forced to pay too much. The deck is stacked.
Imagine that you owned a gas station and the state told you that not only do you have to sell gas but you have to buy the excess that others bring in — but not at a fair wholesale price, but the retail price. Not only would you soon be losing money but you’d be raising prices for all your other customers.
It is not a market solution and it’s only a good deal for the ones getting the mandated subsidies.
I've always thought solar as auxiliary power made sense in the home. Even wind makes sense in more rural areas, but those pretending that solar and wind will ever supply most, or all of a nation's power needs are probably delusional. And the so called solar and wind farms are two of the biggest eyesores ever created by humans.
And what is a "power plant" in relation to solar power in a home?
Solar has a 20-30 year ROI and wind really only works well in a few places on the planet. Need wind that blows pretty strong, all the time and in the same general direction.
Pardon my venting on your thread. There _is_ a hysterical anti-solar contingent on FR, broad enough that nearly all threads on the subject bring ‘em out - enough so I’m too quick to start pushing back in hopes of reminding people there ARE conservatives who think it’s a good (and voluntary!) idea.
“huge power plant” = large array of solar panels (I’m presuming)
That’s just straightforward math. Getting 240V is trivial; it’s just computing the power needs, acquiring enough panels & batteries, and installing the right inverter.
I recently installed a new A/C system, and did casually inquire about solar. There are house-scale A/C units which are designed specifically for solar power - I didn’t inquire further, but do assume they’re built for suitable direct connection (say, 12V instead of 240V) to avoid unnecessary multiple conversions (the common need for an inverter just to plug in something that will de-invert, like a laptop power supply).
Considering that A/C is the bulk of my annual electric bill, and that a solar array powering it would cover the exact space I’m trying to fight heat from (the roof), not only would putting up panels provide direct power when A/C is most needed (brightest most direct light), minimizing the need for buffer batteries, it would help insulate the roof (both siphoning off some of the impinging energy, and providing a cooling air gap).
As I mentioned earlier: in lieu of actually installing my own PV array, I’m renting an array thru the power grid. The higher my electricity usage (due to summer A/C), the cheaper my per-watt cost (due to summer solar intensity necessitating A/C).
Electric _heaters_ may be a different scenario: used most when impinging solar is least (including by obscuring snow). At least it is available at that point as a backup.
Ranges, dryers, etc may be high-power but for short periods. Again, run the math and see if a PV array is appropriate.
Well, I might be one of the hysterical anti-solar freepers , but not because the ideas are bad. They’re just uneconomical. Go ahead and use them, knock yourself out, just don’t ask me to subsidize them and I won’t let you or the media lie about the true cost.
Let me just say this. Without the federal and state subsidies, and without the guaranteed utility buyback programs, no one would be buying solar panels.
Solar panels are like a Camaro. Cute and trendy but really not useful and not worth the money.
BWAHAHAHA, too funny. Wondering if they were 'inexpensive' Chinese Solar panels?
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