Skip to comments.In Search of the Real Troy
Posted on 02/20/2005 2:33:23 PM PST by SunkenCiv
It was then that Swiss scholar Emil Forrer deciphered newly discovered writings from the Hittite Empire to the east, finding two place-namesWilusa and Taruisathat sounded convincingly like the Hittite way of writing "Wilios" (the Greek name for the site was "Ilion") and "Troia" (Troy). He also found a treaty, from the early 13th century BC, between the Hittite king Muwatalli and a king of "Wilusa" named Alaksandu. The kings name, Forrer added, recalls the name of the Trojan prince Alexandercalled Paris in Homers Iliad. Critics pooh-poohed, conceding that a place named Wilusa may have existed, but where was it on the map? For decades the question remained unanswered. Then, in the mid-1980s, new pieces of text were discovered: a letter from Hittite king Manapa-Tarhunda that narrowed Troys location to the Troad. It also became clear from other Hittite texts that Wilusa was attacked repeatedly by "Ahhiyawans," thought to have been Mycenean Greeks, in the 13th century BC.
(Excerpt) Read more at saudiaramcoworld.com ...
Was There a Trojan War?A spectacular result of the new excavations has been the verification of the existence of a lower settlement from the seventeenth to the early twelfth centuries B.C. (Troy levels VI/VIIa) outside and south and east of the citadel. As magnetometer surveys and seven excavations undertaken since 1993 have shown, this lower city was surrounded at least in the thirteenth century by an impressive U-shaped fortification ditch, approximately eleven and a half feet wide and six and a half feet deep, hewn into the limestone bedrock. Conclusions about the existence and quality of buildings within the confines of the ditch have been drawn on the basis of several trial trenches and excavations, some of them covering a very large surface area. The layout of the city was confirmed by an intensive and systematic pottery survey in 2003. We have also discovered a cemetery outside the ditch to the south. The most recent excavations have determined that Troy, which now covers about seventy-five acres, is about fifteen times larger than previously thought.
by Manfred Korfmann
Posted on 07/29/2004 11:43:38 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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On topic, yesterday I was told that if Helen of Troy's face could launch a thousand ships, mine could launch 10,000.
Ha! As if a sea voyage would be sufficient escape from my haunting visage!
On one of the Troia Projects maps of the excavations, the size of the yellow circles indicates relative concentrations of Bronze Age surface finds. The known defensive walls of the city are in red.
"Troy" the movie is now playing on our PPV satellite. I trust it is of no historical value and not worth watching for that reason alone. Forget the actors...
Your visage is pretty haunting.
A lot of people don't know, but her last name was "Back".
One of the oddities in the article was that "Part of the controversy over both Schliemanns and Blegens ideas was that, until the 1930s, there was scant knowledge of adjacent Anatolian civilizations; there were no written references to Troy from the Late Bronze Age. It was then that Swiss scholar Emil Forrer deciphered newly discovered writings from the Hittite Empire to the east."
Blegen did start his excavations in 1932 (1932-1938), but Forrer announced his finding of obvious references to Mycenaean Greece in 1936. Obviously, such references should be expected, not rejected.
FWIW, I disagree with Blegen's view that VIIa was "the" city, agreeing with Dorpfeld that VI was it.
Nice that it was shot in Turkey, but sadly, it cost Brad and Jennifer their marriage.
Thank you !
You're most welcome. :')
Gee, Clive Cussler thinks that Troy was actually in Gaul and the principals were Celts fighting over tin...
That was Rome.
There's also Edo Nyland, who sez the Odyssey actually was a story borrowed from NW Europe, and the actual events took place along the coast of (I think it was) Scotland. :')
Was There a Trojan War?
Don't forget the role of the Scorpion King.
According to the FR guidelines, we can only link to (not excerpt from) Gannett pubs. Oddly enough, this link isn't to a Gannett pub, but to an indy webpage, which just goes to show ya, FR gets singled out because of its popularity:
Homeric feat: Legend vs. fact
By Dan Vergano, USA TODAY
Posted 5/19/2004 11:05 PM
Updated 5/20/2004 11:04 AM
original source (I believe):
Collapse of the Bronze Age:
The Story of Greece, Troy,
Israel, Egypt, and
the Peoples of the Sea
by Manuel Robbins
Schliemann went to Bali Dagh, and as others had before him, found very little. He was almost ready to return home when a chance meeting with Frank Calvert -- who had already dug a test trench on Hissarlik -- suggested that as the site to investigate, and the rest is, well, you know...Troy Story[From the Ninth Edition, 1888] Homer marks the character of the [Trojan] acropolis by the epithets "lofty," "windy," and more forcibly still by "beetling." One site in the Trojan plain, and one only, satisfies this most essential condition. It is the hill at its southern edge called the Bali Dagh, above the village of Bunárbashi.... Remains found upon it--though it has never yet been thoroughly explored--show it to have been the site of an ancient city. Homer describes two natural springs as rising a little to the north-west of Homeric Troy. A little to the north-west of Bunárbashi these springs still exist... Partial excavations on the summit of the Bali Dagh have been more than once undertaken, with the result of discovering ancient walls. Pottery, too, has been found there, part of which is allowed on all hands to be probably as old, at least, as 900 B.C. But the Bali Dagh has never yet been explored with any approach to thoroughness...
[From the Tenth Edition, 1902] The rival ruins on the Bali Dagh have been shown to be those of a small hill fort which, with another on an opposite crag, commanded the upper Menderé gorge. It is inconceivable that this fort should have been chosen by poets, generally familiar with the locality, as the scene of the great siege, while in the plain between it and the sea there had lain from time immemorial, and lay still in the Mycenæan age, a much more important settlement with massive fortified citadel... It is far less reasonable to demand a closer correspondence between the poem and geographical facts than to be astonished that the actual correspondence is so close.
Russia displays art seized from Germany
by United Press International
Published May 17, 2005
The book (shown at the "in reply to" link and in another message) was in the birthday pile for yours truly. I've not read it yet. It's iUniverse, meaning it's self-published, and it appears to be an articulate restating of a lot of the usual chaff. More later.
a BTTT, with a link to another quiet topic:
Semerano, The Scholar Feared By The Academy, Awarded (2001)
ADN - Italy Global Nation - Cultura e Scuola | 2001 | staff writer
Posted on 02/27/2005 9:36:15 PM PST by SunkenCiv
The House of David (not the vanished religious sect by that name)
circa 2002 | David R Ross
Posted on 11/26/2004 7:32:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv
Compendium of World History
Volume 1, chapter 16
Asia Minor and the West
by Herman L. Hoeh
"The original region which the Greeks called Phrygia extended to the Hellespont, for the Phrygians at one time controlled the sea. This land was termed Wilusa or Uilusa in Hattic inscriptions. The Great Kings of Hatti were allied with the Phrygians of Wilusa -- a name changed in later Greek to Ilion, the plain of Troy. 'In bygone times Labarnas, my ancestor, fought against the Arzawan Lands and the Land of Wilusa; he subdued them. Now after that, Arzawa became hostile ... but never did the Land of Wilusa secede from Hatti, but from afar they remained loyal to the kings of Hatti,' declared the Treaty of Muwatallis, Great King of Hatti, with Alaksandus (Alexander) of Wilusa (Ilion, or early Phrygia). This union maintained itself even after both the Assyrians in the land of Hatti and the Phrygians were defeated at the fall of Troy in 677."
Oral Tradition in Homer, PreSocratics, Plato, Aristotle
Gary. C. Moore (who spells "cuneiform" as "cuniform")
"Now this Luvian adjective has one further attestation, which has serious implications: it is an epithet for the city of Wilusa. The city of Wilua or Wiluiya is well attested in Hittite texts, as a city of the Luvian-speaking Arzawa lands of Western Anatolia, with a king Alakandu whose name immediately recalled Alexandros, the other name of the Trojan prince Paris, son of Priam. For this and other reasons the identification of Wilusa with Greek W)?lios, one of the names of Troy, was made long ago and is today widely, though not universally, accepted (Güterbock, 1986; skeptical Bryce 1988)."
What If: A Third Hittite Empire is established
June 25th, 2004
Alternate History website
"When Mursilis II (1345-1315 BCE) ascended the throne he continued the consolidation of Syria. During this time the Hittite Empire extended toward the west, almost to the Aegean. They controlled Cappadocia, Cilicia, and many of the other kingdoms in the west recognized their suzerainty. The Lydian kingdom and the Troad in the west, with the Mitanni and others along the Euphrates in the east, offered homage. The larger cities of Syria, as Hamath, Carchemish, Kadesh and others were vassal city-states. Mursilis II also subdued a kingdom called âArzawanâ, with itâs capital Apasas. This city is tentatively identified with Ephesus, and if in fact true, then the Hittites reached the Aegean."
Do not mock the millihelen system. Remember that most women rate only 500 millihelens and half of all women rate less. A rating of 650 or 700 would be very good.
Troy VII and the Historicity of the Trojan WarCarpenter (1946) has argued that these two expeditions are doublets of one and the same event. He concludes that there seems to have been some doubt in the minds of the Greeks as to where exactly Troy was located. In the Iliad, the word most commonly used for the city of the Trojans is not "Troy" but "Ilion". It is possible that Troy was not the name of a town at all, but rather the name of an area or district inhabited by the Trojans. The Greeks clearly had a legend about a war against the Trojans, but may have disagreed about where these people lived. At least one group of Greeks put them at a place called Teuthrania in the area known as Mysia, or at least so the doublet of the Troy story in the Kypria seems to indicate.
Lesson 27 of Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean
Trustees of Dartmouth College
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000
Further evidence suggesting that such an alternate version of the Trojan War story, along the lines of the Teuthrania episode in the Kypria, did in fact exist can be cited. For example, there is an early variant of the story of Telephos according to which he was born in Troy. "Pergamon" is sometimes given as the name of the inner citadel at Troy. The only other major occurrence in Greek literature and history of the place-name "Pergamon" is as the name of a major city in Mysia, the area where Teuthrania is located. In the works of the Hellenistic mythographer Apollodorus, Pergamon is the name given to the fortress built by Apollo and Poseidon for Laomedon, king of Troy. Finally, in the Iliad Achilles is reported to have sacked a number of minor cities during the ten years of the Trojan siege. Most of these cities are located on the southern slopes of Mt. Ida at the head of the Adramyttian Gulf, that is, in the general vicinity of Teuthrania rather than of Troy.
The stories of Teuthrania's destruction and of the sacking of minor cities in its vicinity are likely to be connected with the Aeolic Greek occupation of the Anatolian Mainland opposite Lesbos, a process which in fact included the resettlement of the site of Hisarlik as well. This "Aeolic migration" is a post-Mycenaean phenomenon, many details of which appear to have become attached to the story of the Trojan War, an event which is supposed to have taken place toward the end of the Mycenaean period. The story of the siege and sack of Troy is the focus of the Homeric Iliad, a product of Ionia rather than Aeolis. Carpenter suggests that the real "Troy" is located in neither the Troad nor Aeolis but rather that the memory of a pan-Achaean expedition elsewhere was located at two different points in Asia Minor by later poetic traditions: at Ilion by the Ionic poets, because they found in this area a local folk tradition about a strong citadel sacked near the end of the Bronze Age (Hisarlik); and at Teuthrania by the Aeolic poets, to correspond with Aeolic traditions connected with their own occupation of this area. Where, then, was the original "Troy"?
If one is willing to accept Carpenter's line of argument this far, one can place "Troy" virtually anywhere in the eastern Mediterranean where bands of Mycenaean Greeks may have undertaken joint piratic raids. Carpenter goes so far as to place "Troy" in Egypt and to connect the story of the Trojan War with the raids of the Sea Peoples mentioned in Egyptian sources at the end of the 13th and beginning of the 12th centuries B.C.Teuthrania (Pergamon)Teuthrania was a Mysian city, located on the river Caïcus. A man named Teuthras founded Teuthrania. Teuthras married Auge, daughter of Aleüs, who was already pregnant by Heracles' son. Heracles had raped Auge during his stay in Tegea. Auge bore Telphus, whom Teuthras had adopted. Telephus succeeded Teuthras.
During the war against Troy, the Greeks accidentally landed and attacked Teuthrania, assuming they were attacking Troy. Achilles wounded Telphus in the fighting. The Greeks agreed to heal Telphus' wound in exchange for guiding the Greek fleet to Troy. Telphus agreed. Telphhus however would not fight with the Greeks against Troy since he was a son-in-law of Priam.
In the last year of the war, Priam managed to induce Eurypylus, son of Telphus (promising to pay Eurypylus with gold vine), to help the Trojans with the war. After killing Machaon and Peneleüs, Neoptolemus, son of Achilles, killed Eurypylus.
During the reign of Areius, Pergamus, son of Neoptolemus, who migrated from Epeirus, captured Teuthrania. Pergamus renamed Teuthrania to Pergamon (Pergamum).
thanks for this link, over in that Argolid cave topic. The shaved-head women of Sparta came later (so to speak), after the ancestors of the two royal lines of the pederastic kingdom of Sparta overthrew the descendants of Menelaus. :')
Meet Helen of Troy: bald-headed, bare-breasted and bloodthirsty
The face that launched 1,000 ships was no such thing, claims a new book.
By Jonathan Thompson
Published: 09 October 2005http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/news/article318223.ece
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.
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