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Benedict XVI-New Pope Hits Out at Harry Potter Books
Contact Music News ^ | 4/24/05

Posted on 04/26/2005 7:55:47 AM PDT by gopwinsin04

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To: discostu
About the only demographic you aren't going to find at a convention are people that don't like sf/f or horror, which makes sense.

I dunno. I've met people at Sci-Fi cons who seem to like nothing about it...
141 posted on 04/26/2005 11:51:32 AM PDT by Starter (Guns don't kill people. Vin Diesel kills people. Sometimes with guns.)
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To: discostu
There's nothing intellectually dishonest about it at all. Yes kids can get caught up in escapism, but they can just as easily get caught up in the escapism of an imaginary friend as the escapism of D&D, and at least in D&D there's the chance to learn some creative problem solving skills.

You're stretching. Kids can also learn creative problem-solving without parents have to worry about them getting into the occult.

Yes D&D included stuff from various myths, but no where did it include encouragement to worship them in real life, there is no more pro-paganism in D&D than there is in Bulfinch's Mythologies.

If I remember correctly, your characters were encouraged to choose a patron deity, particularly the "clerics." And let me ask you--did you ever have a character with the alignment "lawful/neutral/chaotic" evil? If so, did you make sure that the character acted out his alignment?

No they did not glamorize "bad things", bad things were bad and the perveyors of bad things suffered. "Tell me why I have to be a power slave" "Can't you see it'll lead you to ruin" "this can't go on I must inform the law", that's not glorification.

You're crazy. Please allow me to quote the rest one of the songs you reference above:

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or some crazy dream
but I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
they seem to mesmerise me...can't avoid their eyes
666 the Number of the Beast
666 the one for you and me
I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course.

Yes there is a dark fascination with evil and death in the music, like James Hetfield says "we can't all write songs about puppies and happy stuff", but songs can be about dark things and not be PRO dark things.

There's a false dichotomy if ever I've seen one. Plenty of great artists have been able to write about "dark things" without celebrating them--and drawing a bright line as to what is good and what is evil. Most modern fantasy/sci-fi writing and music fails at this utterly because the writers are steeped in post-modern relativism or cheesy gnosticism.

Your kind drove me fleeing from Christianity because you were constantly trying to tell me I was a bad person because of my music and my games.

I don't recall telling you that. "Bad"? no. A bit naive? Probably. But hey, I've been in your shoes. It came to a point in my life where I could have chosen the 'games and music' or God. I chose God.

It wasn't until I found a Christian that shared the same interests that I learned I could exist in both worlds. I escaped from the dungeon myself, the dungeon people like YOU put me in.

You can not serve two masters. One day, you'll have to choose between God and Mammon. There is no middle path.

Sorry, my duty for the past 8 years has been setting up the panels and we've never had one of those panels.

Well, I'm telling you right now, of the dozen or so cons I've been to, when there's a religion panel at all, it was ALWAYS anti-Christian ... virulently.

Funny how quickly you resort to crass generalizations and insults, very typical of the condemning Christians that drive people from the faith.

Is a description or reality as I see it an insult? Claiming that "evil" people like me drove you from the faith is just an excuse. You drove yourself from the faith and use the actions of others as a CYA.

Yep there are wierd people in fandom, there are wierd people everywhere.

Yes, but it's the concentration that counts. And the definition of the word "weird." I suspect in your mind, there's little difference between "weird" and "utterly depraved."

Want to talk about people with wierd sexual practices, let's talk about some priests.

I would posit that those self-same priests are ones most likely to attend a sci-fi/fantasy con.

Now it's unfair and rude to condemn all of Catholocism for the behavior of a few, and I won't do it, try doing me the same courtesy.

Sorry, I didn't realize that fandom held the status of a religion in your life.

That said, it would be perfectly valid for you to condemn the actions of these corrupt Catholic priest--especially considering that such priests are acting in direct contradiction of the moral teachings they are supposed to endorse and propagate. There's plenty there to criticize and I as a Catholic, am the first to do so.

However, your defense of the Church of Fandom admits no similar error. There is MUCH there to be critical of that you cavalierly excuse and dismiss.
142 posted on 04/26/2005 11:59:38 AM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: Luna
I've seen two of the HP movies, and it was a story about good vs. evil, and the evil was clearly defined.

Not exactly. If I remember correctly, one of the hallmarks of the Harry Potter series is people who you thought were acting in an evil manner end up being portrayed as good-guys in the end. Also, Harry continuously breaks the rules, never suffers any consequences, and indeed, is often rewarded for breaking the rules in the end.
143 posted on 04/26/2005 12:04:30 PM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: Starter

Ahh yes, the complainers. If you ever get a chance to pour a couple beers in an author and discuss the complainers I highly recommend it, it'll be one of the funniest conversations you ever have.


144 posted on 04/26/2005 12:18:30 PM PDT by discostu (quis custodiet ipsos custodes)
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To: Antoninus
If I remember correctly, one of the hallmarks of the Harry Potter series is people who you thought were acting in an evil manner end up being portrayed as good-guys in the end.

No, you are not remembering correctly. Good and evil are clearly defined. The only thing you might possibly be thinking of is Professor Snape, he's kind of a grey area. He may just be a huge jackass or he may be an evil double agent. He's not really evil, just a jerk. No one has gone from acting in what would be called an evil manner and turned out to be a on the side of right.

145 posted on 04/26/2005 12:44:02 PM PDT by retrokitten (Those eagles, like angels, don't distinguish between work and play.To them, it's all one in the same)
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To: gopwinsin04

I wonder what he thinks of Chappelle.


146 posted on 04/26/2005 12:47:31 PM PDT by lugsoul ("maybe those who are defending this judicial murder could be said to be WORSE than Nazis." - EV)
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To: Antoninus

Not stretching at all. Assuming you don't have a monty hall or killer GM you do learn creative problem solving in gaming, and you don't have to worry about them getting into the occult from D&D. I never said it was the only way a kid can learn that, I just said that as far as escapist behavior goes at least that type of escapism has an up side.

Well of course Clerics had to pick a patron diety, they're CLERICS. Just like in the real world, if your character wants to devote himself to a god you need to pick the god and flavor of worship, out here in reality you can't become a pastor without picking a religion and denomination. Of course unlike the real world your GM can just decide to blow off that rule and let you be a generic cleric (rhyme purely accidental, but I like it), unless you were playing in an officially sanctioned tournament all rules in D&D are optional, said so in the intro of the DM's Guide. According to the DM's guide "evil" alignment was merely self serving and didn't care about anybody else, "evil" characters didn't really have to be evil just self serving jerks, when I was GMing I always said no evil alignments because good roleplaying of it meant bad team cohesion (nobody ever trusts evil characters to share information or treasure, sharing was vitally important to survival in my campaigns, my motto was "the party that gets along lives"). Of course in the end it's all just roleplaying, what's the functional difference between playing an evil D&D character and playing the Devil in a production of Faust? Finding out how the other half lives can be instructive in why you should be glad you're not part of the other half.

And what happens to that character in the song? They started a summoning and got possessed, now their soul is destroyed and they've become the tool of Satan, a definite warning against the occult.

There's no false dichotomy at all. Yes plenty of artists can write about dark things without praising them, like Scott Harris, Ozzy Osbourne, Eric Bloom, and Ronnie James Dio. None of them praised any of the dark things they sang about (or in Harris' case made others sing about). Wrong wrong wrong, fantasy metal writers are steeped in presenting evil in an unabashed way, taking the covers off and showing its true colors. There's no relativism in fantasy metal, if you play with demons you're hosed, if you open the door to evil forces they will win, the best you can hope for in fantasy if you play with the occult is to merely lose your life.

I chose God and games and music because they are not contradictory. If God is so against fantasy metal then why did he give Dio the perfect voice for it? Dio's God given talent is in making songs about people who do stupid things with evil forces and pay the ultimate price, and to wrap that up with spooky vocal qualities that truly sell how ultimate that price is. But it was people like you that tried to force me to make a choice based on a false dichotomy they inserted, and when given the choice between enjoying the non-sinful pleasures God had placed before me and associating with people that have a knee jerk need to condemn and belittle people I walked away from Christianity until God placed in my life a non-condemning Christian who helped me understand how foolish the condemners are and what a small minority they are. Then I understood, and came back to my faith, and now fight against your kind because I know personally just how damaging you are to people's faith, everything you accuse D&D and fantasy metal and HP of being is what you are, you send people away from the faith, you send people to investigate the occult in search of some alternate way that doesn't have people that condemn others for fun.

I'm not serving two masters, I'm not on a middle path, nothing in my gaming hobbies or music serves Mammon.

And I'm telling you you were at the wrong conventions. Of course with people like you running around condemning people for the music they listen to it's easy to see why those around you would get a false impression of Christianity. I'm against the type of Christianity you represent, Christianity should be about embracing and helping and teaching, not ridiculing and blindly condemning.

if you chose to see reality in the most insulting terms then it is an insult to describe reality as you see it. No it was people like you that drove me from the faith, exactly as you're trying to do now. People creating a false conflict and telling me I need to chose, there is no conflict, and if I truly must chose then I chose to not take the path you took because it obviously leads to a frightening level of narrowmindedness and holier than thou BS.

Weird is a blanket term, depraved people are weird, weirder than most weird people but still weird.

Fandom doesn't hold the status of religion. Merely talking about two demographics of people that have perverts among them, one is fandom, one is Catholics. I do condemn the behavior of these priests, but I don't condemn all Catholics because of them, I understand the difference between the high profile exception to the group and the less news worthy norm. I haven't excused or dismissed anything, if we run into pedophiles in fandom we get rid of them and assist in the investigation, which is something no Catholic will be able to say in total honesty until Cardinal Law is sent back to America to face charges.


147 posted on 04/26/2005 12:51:09 PM PDT by discostu (quis custodiet ipsos custodes)
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To: Corin Stormhands; gopwinsin04; RosieCotton; SuziQ; JenB
I can't find another "legitimate" source for this. But if you Google "Pope" and "Harry Potter" in the news, you find that the real story is that the Pope's writings are currently outselling Harry Potter. Thus a headline "Pope Knocks Down Harry Potter" could just mean he knocked him down on the best seller's list. Not saying the Pope likes HP. Just saying we don't have a credible source to believe he doesn't.

To find "legitimate sources" do a google search on
Ratzinger, Gabriele Kuby
Apparently, on March 7, 2003 then-Cardinal Ratzinger praised Bavarian author Gabriele Kuby's anti-Harry Potter book.

http://www.gabriele-kuby.de/resonanz.html
Kubys Warnungen folgte sogleich hoher Beistand aus Rom. Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger, Präfekt der katholischen Glaubenskongregation, verdammte die" Potter"-Geschichten als "subtile Verführungen, die unmerklich das Christentum in der Seele zersetzen, ehe es überhaupt recht wachsen" könne.

148 posted on 04/26/2005 2:14:06 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: DaGman
This is NOT an infallibility thing... it's just BXVI's opinion.

I'm not even sure it's THAT!

149 posted on 04/26/2005 3:18:29 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Antoninus

If Emily Snyder is the person I'm thinking of, she used to teach music to my kids at a local Catholic School before we began homeschooling! I'll have to look for this book! She lives a couple of towns over from me.


150 posted on 04/26/2005 3:22:12 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Corin Stormhands
the real story is that the Pope's writings are currently outselling Harry Potter.

Ignatius Press has the rights to sell several of the Pope's books. They were just inundated with orders last week!

151 posted on 04/26/2005 3:24:19 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: diamond6
There is a witch who lives in my apartment complex. She hates God, casts spells and wears a pentagram (the sign of the devil) necklace.

I doubt she takes "Harry Potter" very seriously.

152 posted on 04/26/2005 3:25:55 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: retrokitten
I will expect to see you all at the coven this weekend! ;-)

Hmmmm...read Harry Potter or risk eternal damnation... uhm... Can I think about this?

153 posted on 04/26/2005 3:26:40 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Caipirabob
Hmmmm...read Harry Potter or risk eternal damnation... uhm... Can I think about this?

Huhn???

154 posted on 04/26/2005 3:31:50 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Aquinasfan
Read the reviews of the Ouija board game on Amazon. How do they become interested in this stuff?

The same way their parents and grandparents did. Ouija boards have been around for years, and for the most part are harmless. There are some very easily influenced teens, usually girls, who are affected by them, but they are a tiny minority. And if it wasn't the Ouija Board messing with their minds, it would be something else.

155 posted on 04/26/2005 3:40:09 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: discostu
if we run into pedophiles in fandom we get rid of them and assist in the investigation, which is something no Catholic will be able to say in total honesty until Cardinal Law is sent back to America to face charges.

Give it a rest. There ARE no charges against Cardinal Law nor will there EVER be charges against Cardinal Law because he broke NO LAWS! Even the Attorney General of the State of Massachusetts had to admit that!!

There are laws NOW that state someone has to report to the state if there is an accusation or any evidence of abuse. At the time Geoghan and Shanley were abusing kids, there were no such laws. The Cardinal was guilty of not doing something about the situation earlier than he did, and has admitted so, but he broke no laws, nor did he ever abuse any children. Almost every one of the cases in the news took place before he ever arrived in Boston. He was left with the aftermath, and he even put policies in place in the Diocese to make sure it never happened again. No one seems to ever mention that.

156 posted on 04/26/2005 3:47:10 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ; gopwinsin04; Pyro7480
>>This is NOT an infallibility thing... it's just BXVI's opinion.
>I'm not even sure it's THAT!

Are you implying that Gabriele Kuby is lying when she says then-Card. Ratzinger endorsed her book?

Excerpt from ZENIT interview with Gabriele Kuby:

http://www.zenit.org/german/visualizza.phtml?sid=45441
Gabriele Kuby: Harry Potter – „Mein Wille geschehe“ gegen „Dein Wille geschehe“?
Interview mit der Soziologin Gabriele Kuby, die in den Potter-Büchern viele Gefahren für Kinder und Jugendliche sieht


Erfreulicherweise hat mir Kardinal Ratzinger den Rücken gestärkt. Er schrieb mir: "Es ist gut, dass Sie in Sachen Harry Potter aufklären, denn dies sind subtile Verführungen, die unmerklich und gerade dadurch tief wirken und das Christentum in der Seele zersetzen, ehe es überhaupt recht wachsen konnte."

157 posted on 04/26/2005 3:52:35 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: SuziQ

Right that's why he left under the cover of dark and hasn't even come close to stepping foot in any country that would extradite him.

Yeah I always have lots of respect for guys that do reprehensible things then institute policies to make sure nobody else does them. Ranks Law right up there with McCain and CFR in my book.


158 posted on 04/26/2005 4:00:42 PM PDT by discostu (quis custodiet ipsos custodes)
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To: Dajjal
Gabriele Kuby's homepage:

http://www.gabriele-kuby.de/

BTW, I forgot to say in #157 that the ZENIT interview is from Nov. 30, 2003. (But Kuby says Card. Ratzinger's letter was dated Mar. 7, 2003.)

http://www.heiliggeist-seminar.de/Harry.htm
Resonanz von Joseph Kardinal Ratzinger, Präfekt der Glaubenskongregation an Frau Kuby:
"Vielen Dank für das lehrreiche Buch. Es ist gut, daß Sie in Sachen Harry Potter aufklären, denn dies sind subtile Verführungen, die unmerklich und gerade dadurch tief wirken und das Christentum in der Seele zersetzen, ehe es überhaupt recht wachsen konnte." weitere Bücher von Gabriele Kuby
Brief vom 7. März 2003

159 posted on 04/26/2005 4:01:16 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: discostu
Right that's why he left under the cover of dark and hasn't even come close to stepping foot in any country that would extradite him.

I'll repeat, Give it a rest. He was in the United States for a full year after he left Boston. He was available every time he was called for a deposition or for the Grand Jury. He fulfilled all the requirements of the State of Massachusetts in the case, and I repeat, was never charged with any crime. After being in Maryland for that time, the Pope called him to Rome to be the head of the Basilica of St. Mary Major. It is not unusual for an American Cardinal to work out of Rome. Justin Cardinal Rigali has done it, as have others. from other countries. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger was from Germany, but has worked in Rome for years, too. There are no charges pending against Cardinal Law that would cause him to have to be be extradited from any country in the world, and he can come and go as he pleases.

If you want to hate him, go ahead, but at least you'll have the FACTS in front of you as you continue. The most reprehensible thing the Cardinal did was to follow the suggestions of the 'experts' and psychologists who told the Diocese that these priests were 'healed' of their problems and that it was ok to have them back in ministry. Of course, we now know that this is not true, but it was the 'conventional wisdom' until a few years ago. The Cardinal and many Bishops didn't do anything differently than many other institutions in this country faced with the same problem of people in authority abusing the children in their charge. It was not right, and looking back on it, the Cardinal has admitted that, but at the time, it was what was being done across the board.

In my opinion, when the priests were found to be back to their old ways, they should have been de-frocked immediately and turned over to the cops. In some cases, the parents were the ones who made the choice not to prosecute because they didn't want their children's plight to be publicized. When the children grew up they began pressing for the justice they deserved. By the way, it was Josef Cardinal Ratzinger who wrote the most recent rules making it easier now for Dioceses to de-frock abusive priests.

160 posted on 04/26/2005 4:18:49 PM PDT by SuziQ
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