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UFO Research: Findings vs. Facts
SPACE.com ^ | u Jun 22, 7:00 AM ET | Leonard David

Posted on 06/24/2006 9:27:30 AM PDT by BenLurkin

For decades now, eyes and sky have met to witness the buzzing of our world by Unidentified Flying Objects, termed UFOs or simply flying saucers. Extraterrestrials have come a long way to purportedly share the friendly skies with us.

UFOs and alien visitors are part of our culture—a far-out phenomenon when judged against those "low life" wonders Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.

And after all those years, as the saying goes, UFOs remain a riddle inside a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Why so? For one, the field is fraught with hucksterism. It's also replete with blurry photos and awful video. But then there are also well-intentioned and puzzled witnesses [See Top 10 Alien Encounters Debunked].

Scientifically speaking, are UFOs worth keeping an eye on?

Unusual properties

There have been advances in the field of UFO research, said Ted Roe, Executive Director of the National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena (NARCAP), based in Vallejo, California.

"The capture of optical spectra from mobile, unpredictable luminosities is one of those innovations. More work to be done here but [there are] some good results already."

NARCAP was established in 2000 and is dedicated to the advancement of aviation safety issues as they apply to, what they term Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP).

Roe said that a decade from now, researchers should have even better instrumentation at their disposal and better data on UAP of several varieties. His forecast is that scientific rigor will prevail, demonstrating that there are "stable, mobile, unusual, poorly documented phenomena with quite unusual properties manifesting within our atmosphere," he told SPACE.com.

Paradigm shifting

NARCAP has made the case that some of these phenomena have unusual electromagnetic properties. Therefore, they could disrupt microprocessors and adversely effect avionic systems, Roe explained, and that for those reasons and others UAP should be considered a hazard to safe aviation.

"It is likely that either conclusion will fly in the face of the general assertion that UAP are not real and that there are no undocumented phenomena in our atmosphere," Roe continued. That should open the door, he said, to the realization that there's no good reason to discard outright the possibility that extraterrestrial visitation has occurred and may be occurring.

"Physics is leading to new and potentially paradigm shifting understandings about the nature of our universe and its physical properties," Roe said. "These understandings may point the way towards an acceptance of the probability of interstellar travel and communication by spacefaring races."

Sacred cows to the slaughter

As UFO debunker Robert Sheaffer's web site proclaims, he's "skeptical to the max." He is a fellow of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal and a well-known writer on the UFO scene.

Being an equal-opportunity debunker, Sheaffer notes that he refutes whatever nonsense, in his judgment, "stands in the greatest need of refuting, no matter from what source it may come, no matter how privileged, esteemed, or sacrosanct … sacred cows, after all, make the best hamburger."

Sheaffer told SPACE.com, in regards to the cottage industry of UFO promoters, there's a reason there are still so many snake-oil sellers.

"It's because nobody, anywhere, has any actual facts concerning alleged UFOs, just claims. That allows con-men to thrive peddling their yarns," Sheaffer said. "UFO believers are convinced that the existence of UFOs will be revealed 'any day now'. But it's like Charlie Brown and the football: No matter how many times Lucy pulls the football away—or the promised 'disclosure' fails to happen—they're dead-certain that the next time will be their moment of glory."

Trash from the past

"I would have to say that we're stuck in neutral," said Kevin Randle, a leading expert and writer on UFOs and is known as a dogged researcher of the phenomena. There's no real new research, he said, and that's "because we have to revisit the trash of the past."

Randle points to yesteryear stories, one stretching back in time to a supposed 1897 airship crash in Aurora, Texas, long proven to be a hoax by two con men—yet continues to surface in UFO circles.

Then there's the celebrated Thomas Mantell saga, a pilot that lost his life chasing a UFO in 1948. There are those that contend he was killed by a blue beam from a UFO, Randle said "even though we have known for years that the UFO was a balloon and he violated regulations by climbing above 14,000 feet without oxygen equipment. I mean, we know this, and yet there are those who believe that Mantell was killed by aliens."

Randle's advice is to the point: "We need to begin to apply rigorous standards of research … stop accepting what we wish to believe even when the evidence is poor, and begin thinking ahead."

Paucity of physical evidence

"I've no doubt that UFOs are here to stay," said Seth Shostak, Senior Astronomer at the SETI Institute in Mountain View, California. "I'm just not convinced that alien craft are here to stay … or for that matter, even here for brief visits. "First, despite a torrent of sightings for more than a half-century, I can't think of a single, major science museum that has alien artifacts on display," Shostak said. "Contrast this paucity of physical evidence with what the American Indians could have shown you fifty years after Christopher Columbus first violated their sea-space. They could have shown you all sorts of stuff—including lots of smallpox-infested brethren—as proof that they were being 'visited,'" he said.

When it comes to extraterrestrial visitors in the 21st century, the evidence is anecdotal, ambiguous, or, in some cases, artifice, Shostak suggested.

Calling it "argument from ignorance", Shostak pointed to the claim that aliens must have careened out of control above the New Mexico desert simply because some classified government documents sport a bunch of blacked-out text. "How does the latter prove the former?"

Sure, the missing verbiage is consistent with a government cover-up of an alien crash landing, Shostak said. "But it's also consistent with an infinitude of other scenarios…not all of them involving sloppy alien pilots," he added.

Shostak said that it is not impossible that we could be visited. It doesn't violate physics to travel between the stars, although that's not easy to do.

"But really, if you're going to claim—or for that matter, believe—that extraterrestrials are strafing the cities, or occasionally assaulting the neighbors with an aggression inappropriate for a first date, then I urge you to find evidence that leaves little doubt among the professionally skeptical community known as the world of science."

Residue of sightings

Why is there precious little to show that world of science that UFOs merit attention?

"Obviously there is not a simple answer, but part of it is reluctance of the scientific community to support such research," explained Bruce Maccabee, regarded as a meticulous researcher and an optical physicist using those talents to study photographs and video of unexplained phenomena.

Why this reluctance?

"In my humble opinion it is largely a result of 'tradition'…tradition set by the U.S. Air Force in the early years when they publicly stated that everything was under control, they were investigating…and finding nothing that couldn't be explained," Maccabee said.

Nevertheless, Maccabee observed, work on the phenomenon will carry on.

"UFO studies will continue until all the old cases have either been explained or admitted to being unexplainable—meaning a residue of sightings that could be ET related—and/or until people stop seeing unexplainable UFO-like events throughout the world," Maccabee concluded.


TOPICS: UFO's
KEYWORDS: allyoucanget; aluminumfoil; callingartbell; csicopisbunk
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To: BenLurkin

Before you decide to make a jerk out of yourself, please go to Post 60 first.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123484/posts


51 posted on 06/26/2006 4:49:25 PM PDT by Solamente (Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out...)
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To: BenLurkin

I beg your pardon; it's post # 61.


52 posted on 06/26/2006 4:52:37 PM PDT by Solamente (Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out...)
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To: BenLurkin
"As UFO debunker Robert Sheaffer's web site proclaims, he's "skeptical to the max."

I love sitting in on serious scientific debate.

(Alt 1) I love it when you talk 'Science'.

(Alt 2) Too cool dude, glad we're normal.

(Alt 3) Pass the bong - I'm starting to see lights...

53 posted on 06/26/2006 5:23:29 PM PDT by norton
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To: Solamente

I appreciate the correction about the post number.

Are you going to apologize for calling me a jerk?

Or at least explain WHY you called me a jerk?


54 posted on 06/26/2006 5:32:00 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

How have I contradicted your late great aunt?


55 posted on 06/26/2006 5:32:54 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: BenLurkin

My father, a WWII fighter pilot, went to his grave convinced that the strange ships that he saw were not secret German aircraft.


56 posted on 06/26/2006 5:38:31 PM PDT by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: ncountylee
Well seeing is believing I suppose -- but I sure haven't seen it.

And I'd still like to be the first person to question those who come forward as witnesses. They need to be interviewed while the memory are fresh -- and before the person becomes committed to their own interpretation of their memories.

57 posted on 06/26/2006 5:43:27 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: proudofthesouth; Dog Gone

Amazing how those "realities" can clash . . . though often . . . when direct observation confronts assumptions, the assumptions tend to crash and burn.

Thanks.


58 posted on 06/26/2006 7:11:34 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: Solamente

but it did change the way I believe in everything that was being spoon-fed to me as a 10 year old at that time and to this day.

- - - - -

Would you be willing to elaborate? Publicly or otherwise?


59 posted on 06/26/2006 7:13:11 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: BenLurkin

You're a Doubting Thomas. You might as well throw your Bible out the window too, unless Jesus Himself comes up through the toilet to bite you on your ass.

Yeah, I apologize, for being the first to admit being annoyed by your smug piety. I should have waited for everyone else to weigh in. My bad.


60 posted on 06/26/2006 7:13:19 PM PDT by Solamente (Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out...)
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To: Quix

Again, you and I have been there.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123484/posts


61 posted on 06/26/2006 7:15:06 PM PDT by Solamente (Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out...)
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To: Frank_Discussion

Sometimes there is hard evidence. Contrast that to Astronomy, and limit the data source to just stars, what physical evidence do you have other than light spectra? Not much. This not to say that astronomy is bunk, it certainly isn't, but if that science can be supported by optics and radar, but not chunks of stars of bits of extrasolar planets, it isn't unreasonable to consider the reality of UFO's. Ufology has photographic data, spectra, soil evidence, physical adjuncts manifested in materials and sometimes people after encounters, and of course the anecdotal evidence - it really isn't a narrow base of evidence on which the study rests.
- - - -

Excellent paragraph.

Won't sway many 'true UNbelievers' but we knew that. They have this addiction to TYPE II errors that they have a Death Grip on.


62 posted on 06/26/2006 7:15:34 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: BenLurkin

Am I given to understand that I should expect skeptics to be polite?

Knew I'd been messing something up.


63 posted on 06/26/2006 7:16:48 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: Solamente
Let me get this straight.

Are you equating faith in our Lord with a belief in flying saucers?
64 posted on 06/26/2006 7:40:03 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: Quix

If you think I have not been polite you are wrong.

If you know when and where we - you and I - can go to see such things of which you speak then let us go and see one together.


65 posted on 06/26/2006 7:41:20 PM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: BenLurkin

I don't recall any beef with you.

I tend to reply too often to a generalized gestalt I have in my mind toward all skeptics. My fault.
Sorry.


66 posted on 06/26/2006 8:17:43 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: BenLurkin; All

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC HAS A UFO SHOW ON CURRENTLY MOUNTAIN TIME.

Channel 276 DIRECTV


67 posted on 06/26/2006 8:34:55 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: BenLurkin
Well seeing is believing I suppose -- but I sure haven't seen it.

All you need to do is look up in the sky, and try to have a camera with you. You may be lucky enough to take a snapshot of an unusual object that defies our perception of conventional aircraft design.

68 posted on 06/27/2006 2:00:20 AM PDT by Las Vegas Dave ("Liberals out of power are comical-Liberals in power are dangerous!"-Rush Limbaugh.)
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To: RightWhale
And since you have never seen one, they do not exist.

Go piss up a rope. It is the height of arrogance to believe we are the only form of intelligent life in the universe.

69 posted on 06/27/2006 5:45:10 AM PDT by Houmatt (Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!)
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To: Solamente; RightWhale

Actually, I think this applies more to RightWhale than Ben Lurkin.


70 posted on 06/27/2006 5:54:57 AM PDT by Houmatt (Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!)
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To: Houmatt

Maybe, but not by much. The thread was a setup for a religious lecture. I guess I fell for it because I was tired and cranky after a long day.


71 posted on 06/27/2006 6:22:40 AM PDT by Solamente (Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out...)
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To: Quix

I watched it.

Thank you for the heads up.


72 posted on 06/27/2006 6:45:04 AM PDT by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: proudofthesouth

Evidence counts. Otherwise the experience falls into the subjective.


73 posted on 06/27/2006 7:25:44 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Frank_Discussion

Has to do with subjective versus objective. We might not know what anything really is, but we can at least set up procedures and get the same numbers. Not so with UFOs; they are all different and there are no procedures.


74 posted on 06/27/2006 7:28:23 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Houmatt
we are the only form of intelligent life in the universe

So it appears. Produce the corpus.

75 posted on 06/27/2006 7:29:58 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Houmatt

Don't compare UFOs to religious experience. Both are completely subjective, but the similarity ends there.


76 posted on 06/27/2006 7:32:03 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale
Now, there, I agree with you to a degree. There is an awful lot of subjective chasing of the tail in ufology, despite a decent objective data pool. My disagreement with you rests on the idea that mainstream scientists confuse that high-visibility subjective screaming with an apparent lack of objective potential.

I also wouldn't say that there aren't procedures - MUFON in particular has a pretty rigorous set of standard tools for investigation and research. There are folks out there putting forth a best effort at consistency, but there as yet no analog to the NAS for ufology. We do what we can as best as possible, including trying to keep the data and its analysis as clean as possible. But that isn't everyone's approach.

My appeal to you is that there is no logical reason for UFO's to not exist. There are potential explanations for that which people see in the skies that is repeatable over the many years. I expect that an organized approach will only aid in characterizing that, especially if it exposes and freezes out the hucksters.
77 posted on 06/27/2006 7:50:52 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: Frank_Discussion
Since I do not accept that the Theory of Relativity means that FTL travel is impossible, I might accept that ships of some kind could scoot across the galaxy at any speed. That does not mean that any such ships exist as yet, and the ones reported do not have to originate anywhere but this planet.

Maybe we are not looking at the right things the right way, but it does not appear there is any sign of intelligent life anywhere but earth. I wouldn't look far for the origins of UFOs.

78 posted on 06/27/2006 7:58:46 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale

*That* is a reasonable response. I don't know what they are, but I know people have been seeing them for a long time. That alone makes them worthy of study, though not of interest to all people.


79 posted on 06/27/2006 8:11:08 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: Frank_Discussion

UFOs have changed a lot in the 100+ years of modern sightings. They seem to have kept up with technology, just a tad ahead of what is already flying out of Air Force bases. The people aboard the UFOs have also changed over the years, seeming to reflect types of persons found in society, all the way fromn NAZIs during the mid 1900s, to bio-scientists now. There are valid studies, mostly in the field of psychology.


80 posted on 06/27/2006 8:19:13 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale

Pop culture has changed how ufology is seen, and the carnival barker types have indeed run with ball and make up the game as they went along. The basic behavior of UFO's in the sky hasn't changed. But beyond that, are you seriously saying that as a study of something yields information, the study should remain static? The test of science is primarily repeatability, but in new study it takes a while for the transients in the data to settle out. Ufology is much younger than most sciences, I would even grant you that it is merely a proto-science in search of foucs.

There has been a great deal of noise in the signal, as it were.

"There are valid studies, mostly in the field of psychology."

Not funny. And not necessarily true for all of such studies. The recent bunch of articles on "Sleep Paralysis" as a source of abduction reports has been unscientific in the extreme, but pop culture has embraced it uncritically.

That's the sad part: Science tends to debunk Ufology by proclamation, and trends to foolishness in doing so.


81 posted on 06/27/2006 9:35:02 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: Frank_Discussion
Not funny.

True, though. It's about the only branch of science that will look at the phenomenon.

82 posted on 06/27/2006 9:41:08 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale

"True, though. It's about the only branch of science that will look at the phenomenon."

That is why ufology exists. The "establishment" sciences do have better things to do. And I mean that - astronomers provide validation data to physicists, physicists flow it down to engineering researchers, and that improves the world. Biologists down to doctors and medical suppliers, and so on.

Ufology will continue on it's own, trying to figure out what is what with the things in the sky. For my part, as an engineer, I find it important to figure out what might make such a vehicle work, in such cases as it may be a vehicle. Assuming they are physical, then they aren't magic, and we can build them ourselves.

It isn't a bad side pursuit. :)


83 posted on 06/27/2006 9:48:43 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: Frank_Discussion

First, they aren't magic. Reasoning by similarity (magic) is not the way engineers make progress. If Watt reasoned by similarity he wouldn't have seen the relation between a horse and a steam kettle. Now, if somebody wants to build an FTL ship, he needs to find something other than electric, magnetic, or gravitational forces to drive it. That's where physicists work, looking for signs of something going on where everybody has been looking but seeing nothing. Nothing propelled by EM can exceed the speed of light, it's not in the cards. But, ordinary matter could exceed c even though it has electrons and protons and therefore EM effects. Electrons and protons are not EM phenomena even though they exhibit EM phenomena under certain circumstances; something else could possibly drive them to FTL speeds and possibly very easily. The mass, time and length problems are specific to EM phenomena. The math used is that of solid state mechanics--very strange if you think about it.


84 posted on 06/27/2006 9:58:10 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale

"First, they aren't magic."

Exactly.

As for your whole paragraph, I completely agree. I find it encouraging that the FTL community is slowly gaining respectability, as humans tend to be able to figure out ways of doing things, if they can wrap their minds around the required concepts.


85 posted on 06/27/2006 10:11:02 AM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: Frank_Discussion

Some physicists have had basic problems with relativity all along. Ives and Bridgman have been the most coherent. It's not really the relativity to which they object, but the application. It's not easy to work in tensors and quaternions, although both are in common enough use thanks to computers, but deciding when to apply them and what to apply them to requires something more of the understanding than blindly saying laws are valid in all frames, because they aren't necessarily.


86 posted on 06/27/2006 1:17:59 PM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale

"... deciding when to apply [appropriate calculation] and what to apply them to requires something more of the understanding than blindly saying laws are valid in all frames, because they aren't necessarily."

I've been hearing that a lot more lately. A lot of physicists ascribed limitations to Einstein's work that he never proscribed.


87 posted on 06/27/2006 1:42:04 PM PDT by Frank_Discussion (May the wings of Liberty never lose a feather!)
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To: RightWhale

I KNOW what I saw!


88 posted on 06/27/2006 3:25:39 PM PDT by proudofthesouth (Mao said that power comes at the point of a rifle; I say FREEDOM does.)
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To: proudofthesouth

If so, then it was identified. Not a UFO.


89 posted on 06/27/2006 4:20:59 PM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: BenLurkin; All

Did anyone listen to C2CAM last night?

Anyone remember any more details besides the below?

It was a replay with Dr Greer.

He cited the 4,000 cases of tangible, objective LANDING TRACES. These are the sorts of things where the ground is baked; has heightened magnetic readins. Ground and plants seem to have been baked by microwaves or some such.

And, one case of 100's if not 1,000's of houseflies kind of blasted or merged or some such into the side of a tree facing the landing site.


90 posted on 06/27/2006 11:26:55 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: Frank_Discussion

Well put.


91 posted on 06/27/2006 11:27:57 PM PDT by Quix (PRAY AND WORK WHILE THERE'S DAY! Many very dark nights are looming. Thankfully, God is still God!)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

Thanks for the ping Las Vegas Dave.


92 posted on 06/28/2006 12:44:49 AM PDT by fatima (You can read History or make it,fatima)
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To: RightWhale
Oh, look: You totally took something I said out of context to alter my point.

I said: It is the height of arrogance to believe we are the only form of intelligent life in the uinverse.

Unfortunately, you do not fall under that category.

Bugger off, you pompous jerk.

93 posted on 06/28/2006 10:25:58 AM PDT by Houmatt (Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!)
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To: RightWhale
Maybe we are not looking at the right things the right way, but it does not appear there is any sign of intelligent life anywhere but earth.

And you are so full of crap your eyes are brown.

Crop circles. Alien abductions. Filmed sightings. Either millions of people throughout history (including Ezekiel) are wrong and just little ol' you are right, or you are just a git who needs to be hit with a clue-by-four.

Having seen one myself, it's obvious which side I fall on.

94 posted on 06/28/2006 10:34:40 AM PDT by Houmatt (Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!)
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To: Houmatt

You are being totally subjective. Watch what you call people.


95 posted on 06/28/2006 11:20:24 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Houmatt
including Ezekiel

Whatever the phenomenon is, they aren't angels.

96 posted on 06/28/2006 11:22:23 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: RightWhale
You are being totally subjective.

Exactly how am I being subjective?

Who here is telling people who have had their own personal experiences with UFOs they did not see what they saw? Here's a hint: It was not me.

You want my respect? Quit implying people are liars or loons because they have experienced something you have not and maybe you'll get some.

97 posted on 06/29/2006 7:18:21 AM PDT by Houmatt (Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad!)
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To: Houmatt; ALASKA; ActionNewsBill; airborne; albertp; andysandmikesmom; areafiftyone; aruanan; ...
*OPI pings.
(*=Of Possible Interest)

UFO movie trailer (17:59 min. long)
Based upon what I saw, looks like a history of the UFO phenomena from 1940's to Apollo landing to present day sightings. (There is a photo of a what appears to be a structure on the Moon, the last minute of the 18 min. trailer.)

CLICK HERE: UFO, The greatest story ever denied (17:59 minute long trailer) (Note: Quicktime did not work for me but Windows Media did.)

CLICK HERE: UFO (1:29 minute long trailer-Windows Media)

If you want on or off of the UFO ping list, please ping KevinDavis or LasVegasDave.

98 posted on 07/04/2006 1:16:13 AM PDT by Las Vegas Dave ("Liberals out of power are comical-Liberals in power are dangerous!"-Rush Limbaugh.)
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To: ALASKA; ActionNewsBill; airborne; albertp; andysandmikesmom; areafiftyone; aruanan; ...

99 posted on 07/04/2006 5:36:29 AM PDT by KevinDavis (http://www.cafepress.com/spacefuture)
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To: BenLurkin

I have the video, "NASA's Secret Transmissions: The Smoking Gun". I highly recommend it. It definitely shows life forms in outer space. Some very tiny -- which fly into the U.S. spacecraft. Very interesting.

http://theufostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=T&Product_Code=VSF00054

Where may I buy a copy of this new video by Jose Escamilla?

Thanks.


100 posted on 07/04/2006 6:52:06 AM PDT by i_dont_chat (Southwest Houston, TX)
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