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“Youths” Kick Man to Death on Crowded Antwerp Bus
The Brussels Journal ^ | June 26, 2006 | Paul Belien

Posted on 06/28/2006 8:02:28 AM PDT by Tancred

“Youths” Kick Man to Death on Crowded Antwerp Bus

The Belgian state is no longer able to guarantee the security of its citizens. On Saturday afternoon Guido Demoor, a 54-year old Flemish train conductor on his way to work, was kicked to death by six “youths” on a crowded bus near Antwerp’s Central Station. The incident recalls the rush-hour murder ten weeks ago of Joe Van Holsbeeck, 17 years of age, in a crowded Brussels Central Station on 12 April.

Guido Demoor, a father of two, intervened when six “youths” got on bus 23 in Antwerp and began to intimidate passengers. There were some forty people on the bus. Demoor asked the “youths” to calm down, whereupon they turned on him, savagely beating and kicking the man. At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus. The thugs kept beating Demoor. They then pulled the emergency brake and jumped from the bus leaving their victim to die.

Three Moroccans, two of whom are minors, were arrested today. The website of the Dutch paper De Stentor reports tonight that a fourth suspect, believed to be the ringleader, fled into a shop as the police were poised to arrest him. He managed to escape from the shop when dozens of “youths” came to his rescue. Witnesses had described the culprits as immigrant youths of between 18 and 21 years of age. During the weekend the police had called for witnesses as only four people had come forward. The police offered the witnesses absolute confidentiality and promised not to reveal their identities. “Obviously people fear reprisals,” Gazet van Antwerpen wrote today.

Belgians do not have a constitutional or legal right to bear arms, not even purely defensive arms such as peppersprays. With the police and the government failing to protect law-abiding citizens the latter are, however, totally unprotected. Saturday’s murder has shocked bus drivers and train conductors, but they stress that they are not in the least surprised. Violence on public transport has become a fact of life.

“You see what happens if you intervene,” one of Guido Demoor’s colleagues at Belgian Rail is quoted in the newspaper De Morgen today. “If Guido had not opened his mouth he would still be alive. [...] He was a good man. I would not have dared to do what Guido did. I was beaten up once and since then I have become very careful.”

Another colleague told the newspaper Het Nieuwsblad: “After the Van Holsbeeck murder some whined that no-one had intervened. Guido did intervene and paid with his life.” After the assassination of Joe Van Holsbeeck Belgium’s Cardinal Danneels had said that Joe was a victim of “the indifference in Belgian society” because no-one had come to his rescue when two youths stabbed him to death for not handing over his MP3 player.

Today the Cardinal issued a statement saying: “Guido Demoor acted very bravely. The fact that he paid with his life does not mean that he acted wrongly.” In contemporary Belgium it is heroic for an unarmed adult to tell immigrant youths to calm down.

An Antwerp bus driver told De Morgen: “These youths can be very aggressive. If you say one wrong word they throw themselves on you. I do not dare to say anything. I keep my mouth shut.” Public transport passengers declared: “They call you names in a language you do not understand, shouting and abusing you. What can you do? Who can you call for help? I do not know.”

A train conductor told Het Nieuwsblad: “This incident happened on a bus, but it could also have happened on a train. To be honest, I have been working in Brussels’ Midi Station [where the international trains from Paris and London arrive] for 27 years and I am happy to be still alive. I have been eye to eye with aggressive pickpockets on many occasions. These men have no qualms about hurting people. I am not sure that I would intervene if I witness an incident. I do not want to risk my life.”

The unrest among railroad employees after the Demoor murder is huge. Some want to go on strike to pressure the government to give them protection. The Independent Union of Train Personnel (OVS), however, has asked its members not to strike. “Laying down our work would only harm the passengers and make them the victims of incidents for which they are not to blame,” OVS spokesman Hugo De Rycke said. He stressed, however, that the authorities have to do something. De Rycke explained that bus 23 on which Demoor was murdered is known to be dangerous. “Because [bus 23] is so dangerous Belgian Rail at one point provided taxis to take employees to work [in Antwerp’s Central Station]. However, the taxi service was abolished because it proved too expensive,” he said.

Problems occur not only in major Belgian cities, such as Antwerp and Brussels, but also in provincial towns, such as Sint-Niklaas. Last week bus drivers in Sint-Niklaas refused to drive out in protest against the aggressive behaviour of immigrant youths on the buses. In today’s De Morgen drivers, who have all asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals, relate experiences of “buses being demolished while en route” and of “youths harassing girls, who beg the driver to protect them.” One of the drivers said: “If they refuse to buy a ticket I leave it. I do not want to be beaten up for one and a half euros.”

Another driver said: “Last week an old man was beaten up on my bus. The youths were angry because he did not put away his luggage fast enough. They hit him on the eye and threw the luggage on his lap. [...] A bus drive lasts forty minutes. Sometimes they pester and provoke you for a full forty minutes. I remain calm, but some of my colleagues are not able to do so and get into trouble. If I ever get into trouble, I will do as one colleague did recently. He left his vehicle at the bus station and got off, never to return to this job.” Guido Demoor never even got off the bus.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; amendment2; belgium; bloat; cca; diversity; diversityisstrength; failedstate; fmcdh; gwot; immigrantlist; immigrants; immigration; isamicviolence; islam; moroccans; muslim; muslims; muslimviolence; policestate; religionofpeace; rkba; rop; terrorism; terrorists; trop; wot; yoots; youths
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To: Tancred
Demoor asked the “youths” to calm down, whereupon they turned on him, savagely beating and kicking the man. At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus. The thugs kept beating Demoor.

whose the bigger coward...the youths or the 30 passengers who just watched?

101 posted on 06/28/2006 8:47:40 AM PDT by stuck_in_new_orleans
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To: Tancred
Demoor asked the “youths” to calm down, whereupon they turned on him, savagely beating and kicking the man. At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus.

Thirty people fled and left this man to be killed? What, were they all hunched over little old ladies? This is unconscionable...the man intervened on their behalf and they just watch while he's murdered? And then run away the first chance they get? What a gaggle of cowards.

102 posted on 06/28/2006 8:48:45 AM PDT by pgkdan
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To: ishabibble
re :I feel a deep and powerful anger towards the 30 cowards who ran away.

What race were they, what gender what age, as someone who has traveled on buses in Europe, most passengers are what we term immigrants, there is a good chance that those who ran were also Muslim

103 posted on 06/28/2006 8:49:21 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: Tancred
The Belgian state is no longer able to guarantee the security of its citizens.

That's a joke, like any "state" has ever guaranteed the security of its citizens.

104 posted on 06/28/2006 8:49:51 AM PDT by VoiceOfBruck (optional, printed after your name on post)
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To: ichabod1
However there was an incident just last weekend where a bus passenger intervened in a beating and got the holy heck beat out of him

There were 30 passengers. That amount could have intervened successfully but not one lifted a finger to help. Their cowardice may be brought to mind one day should they be in the same predicament with only those of their own kind to call on for help.
105 posted on 06/28/2006 8:49:54 AM PDT by D1X1E
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To: tonycavanagh

Our yoots tend to do their beating in private. Why? In public, they would get the stuffing beaten out of them instead.


106 posted on 06/28/2006 8:50:18 AM PDT by pgyanke (Christ embraces sinners; liberals embrace the sin.)
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To: Panzerfaust
Many people cheered him at the time but I remembered the media crucified him for daring to defend himself versus being a victim.

This guy knows how to handle himself while using public transit...........

[ Picture of Bernard Goetz ]

107 posted on 06/28/2006 8:50:23 AM PDT by CORedneck
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To: pbrown
re :Yeah, Britain is so safe, the law wants people to hide under their beds or lock their bedroom doors when they have a burglar in their home.

Actually I brained mine with a golf club. You can defend your self as along as you can prove you needed to

And I have had a go at youths starting trouble.

108 posted on 06/28/2006 8:51:12 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh

Yes, sometimes gangs of youths do beat up individuals. But at least it isn't a crime for people to carry weapons for self-defense. And at least the youths here aren't Muslim goons who attack non-Muslims.

If you Europeans don't wake up soon and stand up to the Islamo-fascists, there won't be any Europeans left to look down on us stupid Americans.


109 posted on 06/28/2006 8:51:19 AM PDT by steadfastconservative
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To: Moose4

I would bet that those who ran were also of the Muslim faith, it being a inner city bus.


110 posted on 06/28/2006 8:53:41 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: Moose4

I agree with your post completely. I don't want to be smug about this either. Be well.


111 posted on 06/28/2006 8:53:49 AM PDT by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: Madeleine Ward

I do not believe tony boy either, EVER!!


112 posted on 06/28/2006 8:55:16 AM PDT by Lion in Winter (islamics arn't religious, just set on on mass murder of non-muslims! NO FAT ISLAMIC broads!!)
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To: tonycavanagh

My other thought would the 30 child rapiist terror lovers on the bus that fled any of them have a cellphone to call police if they weren't too flamingly gay to actually help?


113 posted on 06/28/2006 8:55:45 AM PDT by ashamedtobefromparkridge
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To: tonycavanagh

Take names on this thread and ping them to your thread. I think people here will be inspired by examples of courage from across the water.


114 posted on 06/28/2006 8:56:02 AM PDT by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Vectorian
It's pretty obvious which country is more dangerous.

No it's not. Most violent crime...especially murder by a criminal wielding a handgun takes place within a very well defined demographic. If you remove black on black crime (usually a black teenager shooting another black teen) our violent crime rate shrinks considerably. Where I live it all but disappears.

115 posted on 06/28/2006 8:59:33 AM PDT by pgkdan
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To: Madeleine Ward
Who has intervened when witnessing someone else being endangered or harmed by another?

I threw my purse at a guy, hitting him in the head when I saw him cursing, dragging,and whipping a toddler across the parking lot. Does that count?
116 posted on 06/28/2006 9:00:16 AM PDT by D1X1E
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To: mtbopfuyn

"So, 30 passengers ran away knowing full well the man was being beaten. He was the only one who stood up for them but when the tables were turned, no one stood up for him. Sad, very sad. And disgusting. They are just as guilty as the "youths". May they all carry this on their conscience forever."

I only wish I'd been there. Then again, I would probably be in jail for making Morrocan hamburger without a license. That sort of cowardice just isn't right.


117 posted on 06/28/2006 9:02:06 AM PDT by dljordan
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To: Vectorian

I don't recall anyone saying we don't have crime or assaults. I do recall FReepers pointing out that 30 people running away from six thugs who were beating a man to death for coming to their defense are cowards.


118 posted on 06/28/2006 9:03:24 AM PDT by pgyanke (Christ embraces sinners; liberals embrace the sin.)
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To: Moose4
Good morning.
"And yet there's some indefinable difference, something I can't put my finger on, about how we would react versus how the Belgians are reacting in this article."

You can see the difference in the response of FReepers as opposed to the response of the Belgians quoted in the article.

We may be keyboard commandos at the moment, but we are angry and making no bones about it.

The Belgians talk about keeping their mouths shut and their eyes averted.

Incidents like this do happen in the USA but not in the way they do in Eurabia, and we are less likely to stand by looking at the ground.

A few years ago two citizens jumped a man who had just gutted a woman on our main drive. The murderer was waving the knife around, but these two men still did what they had to do. Would Europeans have done so? Brits??

Michael Frazier
119 posted on 06/28/2006 9:03:30 AM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: AppyPappy
The Independent Union of Train Personnel (OVS), however, has asked its members not to strike. “Laying down our work would only harm the passengers and make them the victims of incidents for which they are not to blame,

How moronic. I'd lay down my work before I would lay down my life. That's a poor memorial to Mr. Demoor.

I don't usually support unions and their strikes, but this is a special case.

120 posted on 06/28/2006 9:04:56 AM PDT by oyez (Appeasement is insanity)
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To: tonycavanagh
After reading the comments on this thread, I can only guess that in America you do not have gangs of youth beating up individuals.

Ok, so that is why some of us are working so hard to build a larger right to carry concealed weapons for individuals that take a courses. Americans are as free only as we can protect ourselves knowing well, that the government cannot. Law enforcement is only good for investigating a crime. The right to protect ourself is guaranteed in the Constitution.

121 posted on 06/28/2006 9:05:01 AM PDT by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: pbrown

'Yeah, Britian is so safe, the law wants people to hide under their beds or lock their bedroom doors when they have a burglar in their home. Here, we shoot their asses.'

Simply not true. I have two shotguns and a .303 rifle in my home. The law allows me to use reasonable force to apprehend a burglar. That means if he is armed I may shoot him in self-defence. If he attacks me I may shoot him in self-defence. If he is unarmed and running away, I may not shoot him.

You only have to compare 62 firearm related murders in Britain per year with 8259 in the US to know that civillians armed with handguns result in more deaths of innocent Americans, not less.

You shouldn't believe everything you read about the UK, just as i don't believe everything I read about your country!


122 posted on 06/28/2006 9:05:30 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: Madeleine Ward

have.


123 posted on 06/28/2006 9:06:43 AM PDT by oldfart (There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people and the most dangerous person is the one who h)
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To: tonycavanagh
Actually I brained mine with a golf club.

You're lucky you weren't brought up on charges like Antonio Caeiro, or Tony Martin, just to name two.

124 posted on 06/28/2006 9:07:05 AM PDT by processing please hold (If you can't stand behind our military, stand in front of them.)
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To: Madeleine Ward

Oops. I meant to say "I have."


125 posted on 06/28/2006 9:07:37 AM PDT by oldfart (There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people and the most dangerous person is the one who h)
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To: Blueflag

in the US, for the most part, and certainly in "red" state cities, we don't have rampaging 'youths' terrorizing people on buses.

Ever been on a bus in a big city almost anywhere in the U.S. when school gets out? RIOTS READY TO HAPPEN with one wrong stare, one wrong move, eye contact not solicited.
Most of the passengers either immediately start reading or close their eyes as if napping.

It'll get worse. It's just a matter of time.


126 posted on 06/28/2006 9:08:25 AM PDT by Joan Kerrey
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To: pgkdan

'No it's not. Most violent crime...especially murder by a criminal wielding a handgun takes place within a very well defined demographic. If you remove black on black crime (usually a black teenager shooting another black teen) our violent crime rate shrinks considerably. Where I live it all but disappears.'

That applies even more so here in Britain - we in the UK are 92.1% white anglo-saxon whereas the US your population is only 81.7% white including latins and in the low 70's if you exclude latins. The criminal demographic defined by you is much smaller in the UK than the US.


127 posted on 06/28/2006 9:12:01 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: roofgoat
Good morning.
"If you stand up, you'll be charged with hate crimes or whatever else our fine law enforcement can cook up.'

How many states now allow Concealed Carry as opposed to five years ago? How many have passed legislation giving us the right to defend our homes or are discussing doing so?

Even California does not require us to retreat from danger, though I believe some states do.

What you say may come to pass someday, as it has in Eurabia, but damned sure not today.

Michael Frazier
128 posted on 06/28/2006 9:12:07 AM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Antoninus
A nation of wusses will soon be ruled by thugs.

Good one...

129 posted on 06/28/2006 9:13:55 AM PDT by GOPJ (Only defense info the NYT has protected since 911 is John Kerry's service record-freeperWristpin)
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To: Vectorian
I have a .303 myself, my very favorite of all our guns.

The names I mentioned in my post # 124 Are actual stories about just how bad it's getting in Britain.? IIRC, there was an article a couple of days ago posted here where a man was charged with selling a minor a knife.

130 posted on 06/28/2006 9:14:42 AM PDT by processing please hold (If you can't stand behind our military, stand in front of them.)
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To: YOUGOTIT

Thank goodness their were no muslimes involve.......then it could have really gotten ugly (but not reported)


131 posted on 06/28/2006 9:16:39 AM PDT by newcthem
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To: pgyanke

'I do recall FReepers pointing out that 30 people running away from six thugs who were beating a man to death for coming to their defense are cowards.'

I fully agree with you on that point - most Brits would have intervened. Belgium is not a proper country anyway!


132 posted on 06/28/2006 9:17:18 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: tonycavanagh

I don't know what the buses in London are like. In Birmingham (UK) 3/4 of the bus-riders on the lower deck on the 88 route are women and old people: I wouldn't expect them to go all mob-handed on a gang of muggers. I would guess the Belgian bus was full of women and old people too

Nice work with the golf-club BTW. As one secretly-armed Briton to another, I hope you used a "throw-down" weapon, like a cheap putter, rather than an expensive Callaway Driver :0)


133 posted on 06/28/2006 9:18:38 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Tancred
At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus. The thugs kept beating Demoor

These pathetic cowards get the miserable existence they deserve.

134 posted on 06/28/2006 9:19:12 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: brazzaville

current events on how local prosecution and judicial members carry out their jobs tell me otherwise.

Not to be a jerk, but its not too hard too see where we are heading; regardless of CC laws.


135 posted on 06/28/2006 9:19:48 AM PDT by roofgoat
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To: Vectorian
You only have to compare 62 firearm related murders in Britain per year with 8259 in the US to know that civillians armed with handguns result in more deaths of innocent Americans, not less.

Two points I would like to make about this statement.

One, total numbers don't tell the whole story, as the rate per x number of population is a more telling figure. The US population is over 300 million, vs. quite a bit less for the UK. Plus, the "handgun murder rate" will differ from the overall murder rate (murders committed using any kind of weapon, including bare hands).

Second, not all handgun deaths are innocent victims. We have a gentleman in our midst named Jeff Cooper who has written extensively about guns, self defense, and other issues (I highly recommend reading some of his material, such as the book "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell the Truth). He says there is something called the "good riddance factor", which is when punks and thugs kill each other, thus doing society a favor.

136 posted on 06/28/2006 9:20:02 AM PDT by Disambiguator (I'm not paranoid, just pragmatic.)
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To: pbrown

'You're lucky you weren't brought up on charges like Antonio Caeiro, or Tony Martin, just to name two.'

Haven't heard of Antonio - can you post a link?

As for Tony Martin, he shot a minor who was running away from him twice in the back with a shotgun. That is not reasonable force here.


137 posted on 06/28/2006 9:20:19 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: thoughtomator

"It happens, but it's not very common, and decent folks step in and do something about it rather than run away."

BS


138 posted on 06/28/2006 9:21:17 AM PDT by rudabaga
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To: Tancred

At the next stop thirty sheeple fled the bus...


139 posted on 06/28/2006 9:22:04 AM PDT by isom35
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To: Vectorian

I've been to Antwerpen. It never struck me as being a violent city.


140 posted on 06/28/2006 9:22:14 AM PDT by AZRightWinger
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To: Joan Kerrey
Joan --

you are in Mexifornia. Please don't generalize from your particulars. Here in GA we have our issues, but from my experience, the folks here deal with rowdy kids better. Part of the reason in ATL itself is that the administration of Atlanta, for all of its warts, won't put up with rowdy youths of any color or national origin messin' with the ATL. MARTA has its issues, BUT the MARTA cops fell and act empowered, and they do their job (when you have one on the bus/train.)

Sure you can run into problems. No argument. BUT ... we do tend to deal with our own.
141 posted on 06/28/2006 9:22:22 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: rudabaga

ruda --

Remember, you live in NY.


142 posted on 06/28/2006 9:23:09 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitor)
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To: Disambiguator

'One, total numbers don't tell the whole story, as the rate per x number of population is a more telling figure. The US population is over 300 million, vs. quite a bit less for the UK. Plus, the "handgun murder rate" will differ from the overall murder rate (murders committed using any kind of weapon, including bare hands).'

Fair point - here's the figures for murders per capita with firearms. It doesn't help your argument either! :D

'Second, not all handgun deaths are innocent victims.'

The figures I quoted are for murders with firearms as defined by the police. I understand some of those people may have deserved to die, but probably not enough to explain the difference between 62 murders in a country of 60m versus 8259 in a country of 300m, unless 8197 of your murders were bad guys! :D


143 posted on 06/28/2006 9:28:21 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: Vectorian

Sure, give me a sec to find it.


144 posted on 06/28/2006 9:28:43 AM PDT by processing please hold (If you can't stand behind our military, stand in front of them.)
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To: rudabaga

Todd Beamer would disagree with you.


145 posted on 06/28/2006 9:29:22 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Famous last words: "what does Ibtz mean?")
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To: AZRightWinger

'I've been to Antwerpen. It never struck me as being a violent city.'

Same with me. Perhaps the rarity of the event makes it news. Every single firearm murder here in the UK makes it onto national TV as it's very rare. If the 23 firearm murders per day in the US all made it to national TV, it would be a very boring show! :D


146 posted on 06/28/2006 9:32:08 AM PDT by Vectorian
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To: Tancred

And the people are clamoring for protection, not justice. How low on the cowardice scale can Europeans go?


147 posted on 06/28/2006 9:32:15 AM PDT by Dionysius
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To: Vectorian
Antonio Caeiro

[snip]

A man who admitted stabbing a suspected burglar with a bread knife to protect his wife and child is being investigated for assault. Antonio Caeiro, 33, who said he wounded a 19-year-old intruder at his home in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, said yesterday that he would do the same again to defend his family.

The incident has similarities with the case of Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer who was convicted of manslaughter and jailed for shooting dead a teenage burglar in 1999.

148 posted on 06/28/2006 9:34:45 AM PDT by processing please hold (If you can't stand behind our military, stand in front of them.)
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To: Tancred

a real horrorshow, my little islama-droogies

I need to go watch Clockwork Orange again and think Muslim Youts. Stanley Kubrick was a bright guy.


149 posted on 06/28/2006 9:35:43 AM PDT by cowtowney
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To: Dionysius

'And the people are clamoring for protection, not justice. How low on the cowardice scale can Europeans go?'

It's no better in the US - even back in 1964 Kitty Genovese could be stabbed to death in Kew Gardens, Queens while 38 good Americans stood by and did nothing. They didn't even call the police. Cowardice is a matter for individuals, not countries.


150 posted on 06/28/2006 9:39:07 AM PDT by Vectorian
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