Posted on 08/20/2006 5:37:25 AM PDT by Rte66
"And why would the coroner not mention livor mortis in that area when he mentions it elsewhere?"
When he cut her scalp, he didn't expected to see her skull cracked in half. Agree? I mean, there were no obvious signs of trauma. No swollen lump or anything.
In the autopsy report he says, "Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage...
So that is in the scalp itself.
"This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization.
This is what initially caught my eye and eventually led me to the theory that her skull was cracked well after she was dead.
Fresh meaning recent? Not sure, but combined with "no evidence of organization: (clotting), that tells me that she was dead when it happened.
Looking through the rest of his comments on her brain he says, "No inflammation is identified." Now, I'll readily admit that I don't know all there is to know about hemorrhaging. I'm hoping that someone can come up with something medically that could refute my theory. So far that hasn't happened. But, what I've pointed out is what leads me to think that her skull fracture happened long after she was dead. Believe me, I'm still searching for medical info to support or refute the idea. If you or anyone can come up with something then that would be really helpful.
No smoking guns on this issue, but here are some interesting links on it...
petechial hemorrhage in coronary arteries/general vicinity of heart (in infants) due to brain injury:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;107/2/437
Cardiac ph due to causes other than asphyxiation (shock):
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/korea/Vol3-BattleCasualties/Chap21.htm
ph as a result of intracerebral hemorrhage:
http://professionals.epilepsy.com/wi/print_section.php?section=cerebrovas_hemorr
Link showing that blood in BBB was due to head trauma, not livor mortis:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Haven/9101/wecht.html
Done!
"This is what initially caught my eye and eventually led me to the theory that her skull was cracked well after she was dead."
I don't think most people would read it that way. That she was dead when she was struck b/c there is no organization is a non-sequitir - one doesn't follow from the other.
It takes time for blood to clot. So, on the contrary this is actually supporting what I've suspected and that was how I read it; that is, she died within seconds or minutes of the head trauma. That's why there was such a small bleed that didn't have time to clot.
In the quote you said it yourself; the coroner is saying that the blood is the result of hemorrhage. He doesn't open the wound and say, "wow, livor mortis". He just mentions the hemorrhage. But he does do that everywhere else he sees livor mortis. I think you're reading livor mortis INTO the autopsy. He never said that. A forensic pathologists can readily recognize the difference between livor mortis and unclotted, internal bleeding.
Also note that there wouldn't be any blood in the BBB if her heart weren't beating when the insult was received...
"Fresh meaning recent? Not sure, but combined with "no evidence of organization: (clotting), that tells me that she was dead when it happened."
If that were the case I would think it would be a bombshell and the Ramseys would have played it to the hilt. I don't think that's what he meant. He just meant that it hadn't had time to clot before she died. Also note his reference to the gyri. That is yet another indication that she died quickly after, and necessarily AFTER, the head blow as he notes the very beginnings of brain swelling. That's KEY.
"Looking through the rest of his comments on her brain he says, "No inflammation is identified." Now, I'll readily admit that I don't know all there is to know about hemorrhaging. I'm hoping that someone can come up with something medically that could refute my theory. So far that hasn't happened. But, what I've pointed out is what leads me to think that her skull fracture happened long after she was dead. Believe me, I'm still searching for medical info to support or refute the idea. If you or anyone can come up with something then that would be really helpful."
Well, I don't know any other way to put it other than you've introduced a non-sequitir into your theory and lack of clotting merely reinforces the view that the head trauma is what actually killed her. She died BEFORE it had time to clot but AFTER it was able to bleed. That is in fact the most powerful evidence that the head trauma was the presenting cause of death; notwithstanding Meyer's attempt to sidestep this question.
Unless I've completely misunderstood you, and with all constructive respect, right now it sounds like you're getting drawn down a bunny trail.
It appears that Dr. Wecht gave his information before all of the autopsy had been released. (They didn't release the whole thing all at once.)
At the top of your link is says 1998. At the bottom of the page it wonders about urine. Autopsy said her bladder was empty. The current autopsy report plainly states that urine covered the front of her clothes. This discussion from Dr. Wecht appears to be dated. He didn't have all of the info that we have now.
Someone tell me if I am incorrect.
Good finding though!
I'll check the others in a bit.
should "notwithstanding" be "withstanding"!?
Yea, I saw that. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link that really addresses what we're talking about here.
When John Ramsey found her, he said she was lying on her back with her arms in what would be a raised position at the sides of her head, prone to the floor. Her elbows were bent outward at about ear level, with her wrists tied together and the length of cord connecting them lying behind her head.
He picked her up to carry her upstairs and she was apparently in full rigor. Det. Arndt said he was carrying her upright, holding her under her armpits, with his arms extended to hold her out away from his body. He had loosened one wrist loop so that her hands were no longer tied together, but her arms were raised in the air.
The level of the top of her head was above the top of his head.
There was nothing that would've obstructed the headspace on his way between the wine cellar room, the basement stairs, the main level doorway and the entry hall.
No blood was flowing and couldn't have pooled upward into her skull area.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
If you took a dead person, someone who had been dead for hours, and hit them hard in the head with a baseball bat, there would be no clotting, right?
So I don't understand what you are saying.
You don't think it's possible that he started out carrying her in a different position, realizing that wasn't working because she was stiff? I mean, the guy was out of his mind with panic. You don't suppose he could have accidentally whacked her head on the way through the basement and up the stairs?
Not sure what you mean in the last sentence. Her head was turned to the right and that's where the pooling was.
Merv? Yes, up the yin-yang. The other boys in the family, too. They had been in the wine cellar earlier in the month to get out the Christmas display decorations that were stored there and to put them up.
"If you took a dead person, someone who had been dead for hours, and hit them hard in the head with a baseball bat, there would be no clotting, right?"
Agreed. But the problem is that there wouldn't be any blood to start with. If the person is dead there is no bleeding, no hemorrhaging, no brain swelling. All of this requires a warm body. So, she is hit and then blood pools in the BBB, but only a little, and her heart stops before it has time to clot. We're talking less than 10 minutes here. It was probably less than 60 seconds. The head trauma was almost certainly the presenting cause of death. Asphyxia may have contributed, but it wasn't the primary cause.
It wouldn't have been there if the head blow had happened after her heart stopped pumping.
"You don't think it's possible that he started out carrying her in a different position, realizing that wasn't working because she was stiff? I mean, the guy was out of his mind with panic. You don't suppose he could have accidentally whacked her head on the way through the basement and up the stairs?"
Not in light of the autopsy b/c a blow to the head of a child that's been dead for hours wouldn't cause brain swelling, bleeding and hemorrhage.
I disagree, but don't want to get into it.
Aw come on! You can't leave me hanging here? Okay, can you tell me which part? Or do you disagree with all of it?
Oh, that's the bus driver you were talking about - Wendy Nichols in Hamilton, former classmate of Karr's.
Earlier, I thought you meant the Greyhound bus driver who picked up the new wannabe wannabe, Daniel Pride, had come forward to confirm or refute. That would've just been too too much.
Here's some of the Cosby blurb, plus the video link:
Rita Cosby - video at link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13417364/#060825a
Aug. 25, 2006 | 4:19 p.m. ET
Who Is John Mark Karr?
After reporting from Boulder, Colo., for several days, I’m now in Hamilton, Alabama, John Mark Karr’s hometown where he was married twice to local teenagers and had three children. Everybody in town has been so cordial and kind to us, and they are scratching their heads about this man that they grew up with who says he’s connected to such a horrible crime.
A lot of people in town talk about John Mark Karr’s dark side. They describe him as peculiar. They say that he was smart but acted odd and often uncomfortable. A few of his classmates have shown me their yearbooks that he signed with strange messages; he made references to suicide cult leader Jim Jones and signed year books as “Rev. J,” Reverend John.
Additionally, I spoke exclusively to one of John Mark Karr’s former classmates, Wendy Nichols, who says that just months after JonBenet Ramsey was killed, John told her he was there and he did it. Wendy says that John Mark Karr was helping her and her children pull up a Web site at her computer at her home in 1997. He was calm and engaged in casual conversation until a story about the child beauty queen came on the news. Nichols says that John Mark Karr “turned around and he looked at the television and started arguing with the television.” She says he told her that “he felt that the investigators were incompetent and that he knew what went on” and that he could tell her why there were no footprints in the snow outside the Ramsey’s house, and how the intruder broke in. According to Nichols, Karr told her “that he could tell me because he was there and he did it.” He also mentioned in the conversation that he loved JonBenet. And again, this was only a few months after the beauty queen was murdered.
Wendy Nichols regrets not coming forward sooner, but contacted the Boulder District Attorney’s office this week, because now she wonders if what Karr was telling her may have been true.
In John Mark Karr’s hometown of Hamilton, Ala., with a population of about 7,000 people, everybody seems to have met Karr at some point. Now they’re just trying to figure out if the man is delusional or…much worse…the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.
Wow, that guy's ... different.
I believe she died of asphyxia from the ligature strangulation. That's all.
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