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SACRIFICE [Professors say Gibson's Apocalypto is biased against Mayan bloodletting]
Newsweek ^ | December 5, 2006 | Newsweek

Posted on 12/05/2006 11:45:28 PM PST by freedomdefender

Let's get right to the point, shall we? About halfway through Mel Gibson's movie "Apocalypto," which opens this week, viewers are treated to a stomach-turning scene of human sacrifice, set in a Mayan city around 1500. It's not revealing too much to say that the movie's hero is captured by a gang of marauders, bound, marched through the jungle, painted blue, and forced to the top of a pyramid where heads roll.

In a smaller version of the outrage and skepticism that preceded the opening of "The Passion of the Christ"—is it historically accurate? is it anti-Semitic?—scholars who study the ancient Maya are concerned that Gibson's film will distort the great civilization and demean its descendents, six million of whom still live in Central America. Yes, the Maya sacrificed humans to the gods, but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Maya believed that their bodies, their blood, were created by the gods and that they occasionally needed to repay this debt with human life. "The gods need you," explains David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard. "They depend on human life for their own existence, there's this kind of reciprocity." In sacrifice, he adds, the people are becoming like gods. Based on the trailer, Carrasco believes that Gibson has made the Maya into "Slashers," and their society a "Hypermasculine fantasy."

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: apocalypto; gibson; mel; melgibson
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1 posted on 12/05/2006 11:45:31 PM PST by freedomdefender
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To: freedomdefender

"Sympathy for the Devil"


2 posted on 12/05/2006 11:48:36 PM PST by marron
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To: freedomdefender
[---SACRIFICE [Professors say Gibson's Apocalypto is biased againsMayan bloodletting] ----]

LoL... liberals have no shame... (Eddie Murphy laugh)...

3 posted on 12/05/2006 11:51:23 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: marron

Meso-American cultures (yes, even highly advanced ones) also didn't let the protein go to waste -- if you know what I mean. Forensic studies on bones confirm early Spanish descriptions of ritual canibalism.


4 posted on 12/05/2006 11:53:33 PM PST by Bushwacker777
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To: freedomdefender

Hilarious.

Could you imagine what this same guy would be saying if ONE Christian Church in the south, say, advocated making a small cut in the palm of your hand to, say, feel sympathy for what Jesus went through when he was nailed to a cross?

He'd hit the roof, demand that their children be taken away from all parents who attended the church, etc.


5 posted on 12/05/2006 11:53:37 PM PST by zbigreddogz
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To: freedomdefender
"Hansen hopes viewers will see the movie, as he does, as a contemporary allegory on the squandering of natural resources and the abuse of power, but he says that "the movie is designed for people who don't have the intellect to grasp the deeper concepts."

Ummm..., Er....,
They captured people from other tribes,
Confined them or use them as labor in their 'public works',
Hauled them up those 'works' in large groups;
AND CUT OUT THEIR HEARTS!

From this I'm supposed to learn how to share?

6 posted on 12/05/2006 11:53:49 PM PST by norton
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To: freedomdefender
"Yes, the Maya sacrificed humans to the gods, but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Maya believed that their bodies, their blood, were created by the gods and that they occasionally needed to repay this debt with human life."

Alright then. That makes it ok.

7 posted on 12/05/2006 11:54:26 PM PST by freedomdefender
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To: freedomdefender

I think I'm beginning to get a picture of what makes Gibson tick.


8 posted on 12/06/2006 12:04:28 AM PST by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: freedomdefender

I'm sure the Mayans are deeply offended.


9 posted on 12/06/2006 12:07:25 AM PST by pcottraux (It's pronounced "P. Coe-troe.")
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To: pcottraux

Cannibalism by the Meso_Americans was discussed in this FR thread a while back:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1688893/posts

Here is the original article:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1243302006


10 posted on 12/06/2006 12:10:07 AM PST by Bushwacker777
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To: freedomdefender

"Based on the trailer" is all I need to know. He hasn't seen the film so his opinion of how Mel treats the Mayan culture's about as worthless as they come.


11 posted on 12/06/2006 12:15:21 AM PST by newzjunkey (Prepare. President Rodham, 01-20-09.)
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To: norton
In sacrifice, he adds, the people are becoming like gods.

Of course, if the sacrificees are from other tribes and don't believe in the Mayan gods, then they're just sucking...

12 posted on 12/06/2006 12:22:12 AM PST by GATOR NAVY
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To: freedomdefender
Thanks to David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard for the following Logic sequence...try it, you'll be amazed!

...Yes, the Maya sacrificed humans to the gods, but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Maya believed...

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the KKK believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Islamic Suicide Bombers believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Nazis believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Kymer Rouge and Pol Pot believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the males who threw female virgins into volcanos believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the U.S. Calvary who killed the Indians at Wounded Knee believed...'

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the American slave owners believed...'

Hmmm...this Logic Flow can take us anywhere. Thanks David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard!

13 posted on 12/06/2006 12:30:30 AM PST by Van Jenerette (U.S.Army 1967-1991 Infantry OCS, Hall of Fame, Ft. Benning Ga.)
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To: freedomdefender
"The gods need you," explains David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard. "They depend on human life for their own existence, there's this kind of reciprocity.

Sounds suspiciously like the Clintons.

14 posted on 12/06/2006 12:48:50 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: freedomdefender

"sympathy for the devil" ping...

er, ping, for sympathy...

I want to know everything 'bout these people because I'm working on a CivIII epic. So there.

Anything that you guys come up with I'd like to know 'bout.


15 posted on 12/06/2006 12:53:43 AM PST by raygun (Whenever I see U.N. blue helmets I feel like laughing and puking at the same time.)
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To: SunkenCiv

ping


16 posted on 12/06/2006 12:54:51 AM PST by raygun (Whenever I see U.N. blue helmets I feel like laughing and puking at the same time.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1

Oh...that's rich, too true, and perfectly pithy! Thanks for the smile it put on my face to read your post ;-)


17 posted on 12/06/2006 12:57:11 AM PST by NordP (America Votes: Turns out there ARE more Punks than Patriots ! ....so sad)
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To: freedomdefender
Alright then. That makes it ok.

The Mayan ball court game could've helped NBA players with the attitude thingy.
18 posted on 12/06/2006 1:04:39 AM PST by carumba (The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. Groucho)
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To: Van Jenerette

Lets see...'but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the U.S. Calvary who killed the Indians at Wounded Knee believed...'

It ain't PC, but it's not that bad. One of the biggest lie perpetrated on our history is that we commit "genocide" on the Indians.

BS. They hit us as hard as we hit them. The only difference is technology. This nation would be split in half if they have the same tech we do or vice versa. In fact, I heard that in the first conflict between colonists and indians, they drew first blood.


19 posted on 12/06/2006 1:13:49 AM PST by Killborn (Pres. Bush isn't Pres. Reagan. Then again, Pres. Regan isn't Pres. Washington. God bless them all.)
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To: freedomdefender
"In sacrifice, he adds, the people are becoming like gods."

Did Mayans get 69 virgins too?

yitbos

20 posted on 12/06/2006 1:27:51 AM PST by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: freedomdefender
After Disney came out with the "press kit" for this waste of money comparing the civilization of the Mayans with the current US society....I won't be giving any of my money for their other DVD's.
21 posted on 12/06/2006 1:30:33 AM PST by Dallas59 (Muslims Are Only Guests In Western Countries)
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To: freedomdefender
"The gods need you," explains David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard. "They depend on human life for their own existence, there's this kind of reciprocity." In sacrifice, he adds, the people are becoming like gods.

It's interesting that the gods always need someone else's blood.

22 posted on 12/06/2006 1:32:35 AM PST by rmh47 (Go Kats! - Got Seven? [NRA Life Member])
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To: freedomdefender
Robert Hansen, the Idaho State University anthropologist who worked with Gibson for two years to ensure "Apocalypto" 's authenticity,..."the movie is designed for people who don't have the intellect to grasp the deeper concepts."...With Gibson's generous seven-figure donation to his dig in northern Guatemala...

Talking about whoring yourself... This guy felt that what Gibson did (making the movie) was wrong, shallow, and misinforming the audience. Yet, he deliberately took part of the enterprise because he wanted the money.

23 posted on 12/06/2006 1:44:15 AM PST by paudio (WoT is more important than War on Gay Marriage!)
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To: freedomdefender

THe Aztecs were much bigger as far as human sacrifice. It was a way of life for the Aztecs. Mayans did much less and also did child sacrifice (the young virgins)


24 posted on 12/06/2006 1:44:55 AM PST by dennisw
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To: Bushwacker777
Meso-American cultures (yes, even highly advanced ones) also didn't let the protein go to waste -- if you know what I mean.

No, I won't say it... ;-)

25 posted on 12/06/2006 2:05:04 AM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: freedomdefender
"The gods need you," explains David Carrasco, professor of religious history at Harvard. "They depend on human life for their own existence, there's this kind of reciprocity."

Present tense. Rather disturbing. I've known a few people along life's way who've been fascinated with Mayan civilization, and with their bloodletting in particular. Scarey people all.

I'm beginning to wonder if Gibson has the same fascination, and if "The Christ" was more a product of obsession with human sacrifice than of any religious motivation.

26 posted on 12/06/2006 2:19:39 AM PST by browardchad
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To: pcottraux

And terribly saddened and feeling deeply troubled.


27 posted on 12/06/2006 2:41:59 AM PST by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8)
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To: Bushwacker777

It wasn't ritual cannibalism. The bodies of the sacrificial victims were tossed down the pyramids and then hauled away and consumed like any other meat.

As for Gibson's movie being unnecessarily bloodthirsty one set of sacrifices for a new temple in what became Mexico City went on for 4 days with one human sacrifice about every 30 seconds day and night.

In addition you might want to look into what were known as the Rose Wars where rose screens were used after the sacrifice to screen the royalty's (both sides) feast of human. Both sides also decided how many prisoners would be captured before the battles and who would win (usually the Aztecs). These Rose Wars were on the reasons that the Spanish were able to conquer Mexico City so easily. They had lots of help from the other Meso-Americans were very happy to help the foreigners in overthrowing the blood thirsty and ruthless Aztecs. Of course the Aztecs weren't the only ones in the area that believed in human sacrifice and cannibalism (not ritual cannibalism).

The original Aztecs were landless mercenaries brought in to help when a war. After the victory the Aztecs took the daughter of the the king that had employed then and skinned her alive. They then danced in her skin in front of her father. This kind of ticked off the father and he attacked the Aztecs. Unfortunately for him the Aztecs were better warriors and they conquered the city which is now known as Mexico City. This dancing in the flayed skin of sacrificial victims didn't end there.

This isn't a real popular topic in most of the classes pushing Hispanic studies. They like to key in on the dancing, the math and the astronomy.


28 posted on 12/06/2006 2:57:40 AM PST by airedale ( XZ)
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To: Killborn

it goes back so far in time that who drew first blood gets lost in the mist, but one thing that you don't hear about in today's PC "evil White Man" genocide b/s is how indian warfare allowed for attacking of undefended settlements, capture, torture and killing of innocent non-combatants - the women and children.

This may have been ok for the injuns - but when they came up against a Western Civilization people to whom such "acts" are the most vile atrocities, their number was up.


29 posted on 12/06/2006 2:58:40 AM PST by CGVet58 (God has granted us Liberty, and we owe Him Courage in return)
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To: freedomdefender

What you said. The academic is ignoring the obvious. What the Mayans and Aztecs did was horrible. But since they are part of that non/white European world, well that makes it just wonderful and "cultural". Instead of the cruel, barbaric, savage acts they really were. These academics display their ignorance and racism when they set up different moral codes for different cultures. The witch-killing and religious wars of the middle ages in Europe were horrible. As a descendent of white Europeans I have no problem saying that. Why can't these academia nuts do the same?


30 posted on 12/06/2006 3:00:07 AM PST by driftless2
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To: freedomdefender
Yes, the Maya sacrificed humans to the gods, but these rituals were part of a complex worldview: the Maya believed that their bodies, their blood, were created by the gods and that they occasionally needed to repay this debt with human life.

Ah, so that makes it okay. Silly me.

So, I suppose if they put panties on their heads, that would be okay, too.

31 posted on 12/06/2006 3:06:17 AM PST by BlessedBeGod (Benedict XVI = Terminator IV)
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To: driftless2

Yeah that's my read as well. Since they were "people of color" that makes it all just fine.


32 posted on 12/06/2006 3:10:19 AM PST by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: driftless2
Why can't these academia nuts do the same?

Bait and switch sometimes works. On a couple of occasions when the subject has come up, I've "prepared the battlefield" by taking off on the Spaniards. I start with the observation that 16th century Europe was a brutal place but that even there Spanish cruelty was a byword. I toss in a glancing reference to the Inquisition. A multiculti type will be nodding fiercely at this implicit defense of the Indians.

Then I spring the trap by noting that what has to be understood is that, bad as the Spanish were by our standards, the Indians of Mexico horrified even them. The carnage shocked even the scourge of Europe. Game, set, match.

33 posted on 12/06/2006 3:21:05 AM PST by sphinx
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To: freedomdefender
"but these rituals were part of a complex worldview:"

There is no behavior, no evil that cannot be explained by this justifying sentence.

Newsweak is not fir for toilet paper.

34 posted on 12/06/2006 3:48:03 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: freedomdefender

I won't watch this movie, nor will I ever watch another new flick by Mel. His never ending mea culpa's after his DUI arrest were laced with Iraq War bashing purely to ingratiate himself with the liberal elites on the left coast. Mel, you've shown your true self to me, and you'll never see another nickle of my money.


35 posted on 12/06/2006 3:54:05 AM PST by moose2004 (You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)
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To: CGVet58
"it goes back so far in time that who drew first blood gets lost in the mist, but one thing that you don't hear about in today's PC "evil White Man" genocide b/s is how indian warfare allowed for attacking of undefended settlements, capture, torture and killing of innocent non-combatants - the women and children.

This may have been ok for the injuns - but when they came up against a Western Civilization people to whom such "acts" are the most vile atrocities, their number was up."



Actually its more a case of common behavior across the world and throughout history. Anywhere people lived it was where they had previously run off/killed the ones who were there before.

The indians faced people who were simply better at it and had more advanced technologies and organization. Read what the English did in Ireland just before they started the colonies at Jamestown, etc... Some of the same soldiers had just been in Ireland. The indians had their own wars and conquests, but were no match for the Europeans once they got organized and interested.


The Aztecs fell more because they were so hated by the other peoples nearby who took very little persuasion to help Cortes.

Pizarro conquered the Incas who were left vulnerable because of their own very bloody civil war.
36 posted on 12/06/2006 4:00:43 AM PST by wodinoneeye
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To: sphinx

Ooooo, I like that. Taking notes.


37 posted on 12/06/2006 4:03:40 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: pcottraux
I'm sure the Mayans are deeply offended

I thought the Mayans were about as extinct as the passenger pigeon.

38 posted on 12/06/2006 4:14:36 AM PST by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: freedomdefender
I enjoyed The Passion much more than I expected to, so I'm looking forward to Gibson's next effort. Indigenous Meso-American people have always been fascinating, yet have has rarely been examined in film.

Needless to say, blood *was* central to Mayan religious life. Assuming that Gibson explores this accurately, then this film is definitely not for the squeamish.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

39 posted on 12/06/2006 4:23:43 AM PST by Wormwood (the happiest sadist)
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To: Van Jenerette

excellent post!


40 posted on 12/06/2006 4:30:07 AM PST by babble-on
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To: airedale
The original Aztecs were landless mercenaries brought in to help when a war

The Latin American History as taught by the school systems in the 1960's had the Aztec tribe as the poorest and smallest of the tribes of that part of North America. They were landless until one day while wondering through a swamp, they came upon an eagle sitting on a cactus eating a serpent (snake). This was a vision that one of their elders had dreamed of previously. They made that swamp their home and became the great tribe that the Spanish Conquered a few hundred years latter. The eagle on the cactus eating the serpent is the symbol on the Mexican Flag. There is also a book Aztec, by Gary Jennings that is a great read once you get past the sexual descriptions of meaningless fiction.

41 posted on 12/06/2006 4:30:47 AM PST by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: Miss Marple
Ping..(because I agree with you)
42 posted on 12/06/2006 4:36:30 AM PST by Guenevere (Duncan Hunter for President....2008!)
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To: freedomdefender
Yes, the Maya sacrificed humans to the gods, but these rituals were part of a complex worldview:

Yes, satanism.

I was hoping that this movie would destroy the PC whitewashing of the satanic human sacrifices of Mayan civilization.

There's a reason why Mary visited Juan Diego.

1474 An Indian named Quauhtlatoatzin was born in Cuautitlan.
1476 Juan de Zumarraga was born in Spain.
1492 Christopher Columbus landed on an island in the Americas and named it San Salvador.
1514 The first Marian Shrine in the New World was established in the city of Higuey, first to be built on American soil.
1519 Hernan Cortez landed in Mexico.
1521 The capital city of the Aztecs falls under Cortez.
1524 The first 12 Franciscans arrive in Mexico City.
1525 The Indian Quauhtlatoatzin is baptized by a Franciscan priest. He received the Christian name of Juan Diego.
1528 Friar Juan de Zumarraga arrives in the New World.
1529 Juan Diego’s wife, Maria, became sick and died.
1531 Year of the apparitions to Juan Diego
1533 The first sanctuary was erected.
1541 Franciscan priest and early historian of New Spain “Motolinia” writes that some nine million Aztecs had become Christians.
1548 Death of Juan Diego.

43 posted on 12/06/2006 4:38:52 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Guenevere
Yep. Sad but true...Gibson is flat out nuts. Just wait until you see the preview to this movie, Guennie. You will be horrified, and it only hints at the graphic parts.

I won't be seeing any more of his movies.

44 posted on 12/06/2006 4:39:38 AM PST by Miss Marple (Lord, thank you for Mozart Lover's son's safe return, and look after Jemian's son, please!)
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To: sphinx
bad as the Spanish were by our standards, the Indians of Mexico horrified even them. The carnage shocked even the scourge of Europe. Game, set, match.

What kind of reaction do you get?

45 posted on 12/06/2006 4:44:05 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Miss Marple
Sadly, I'm with you.

I own some of his movies--Braveheart, The Passion, The Patriot.... still thought he was one of the good guys...

..but after reflecting on his rage....and subsequent quotes he made against President Bush...and his predilection toward violent scenes...

...I know I will not see this movie....I don't care about this movie...

..and I don't really care for him anymore.

46 posted on 12/06/2006 4:55:52 AM PST by Guenevere (Duncan Hunter for President....2008!)
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To: Dixie Yooper

Well that's not very accurate considering there was a major city the capital of a major empire siting on that island in the swamp. See if you can find LA Capital: The Biography of Mexico Cit by Jonathan Kandell. It starts before the Aztecs took over and goes in to great detail about how they came to power, their religion, eating habits as well as their relations to other tribes. The book is about 700 pages in paperback with about 15% devoted to this topic.


47 posted on 12/06/2006 5:03:50 AM PST by airedale ( XZ)
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To: airedale

Thanks, I'll check it out.


48 posted on 12/06/2006 5:18:05 AM PST by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: Guenevere
If I happen to like the movies an actor or director puts out, I won't let their political hangups become a hangup for me.
Mel's movies that he has stared in and directed have always been violent. Mad Max, Road Warrior, Ransom, Payback and even the really stupid movies he did with Danny Glover (another political genius). Mel's movies have always told us that it will be a violent world, it has been a violent world and it is a violent world. South Park even did an episode where he is shown as being crazy, before his rant for the LA police happened.
I'm looking forward to seeing this movie on dvd.
49 posted on 12/06/2006 5:30:48 AM PST by Dixie Yooper (Ephesians 6:11)
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To: Dixie Yooper
Well, all I can tell you is that the previews creeped me out. I have always thought the destruction of those South American Indian cultures was a good thing. I see no value in a society that lives on slavery and human sacrifice.

I know Gibson's movies have always been violent. I am, however, begining to feel that he is obsessed with it, and gets his jollies on luring others into watching it.

First he got a bunch of Republicans to watch "The Patriot."

Then he lured a bunch of Christians into watching "The Passion."

Now, apparently, he is luring multi-cultural kumbaya people into watching "Apocolypto."

And all the while he is laughing at all of us, because we are bankrolling his sick fascination with violence.

Count me out.

50 posted on 12/06/2006 5:49:02 AM PST by Miss Marple (Lord, thank you for Mozart Lover's son's safe return, and look after Jemian's son, please!)
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