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300 - FRANK MILLER'S STORY

Posted on 01/16/2007 5:11:53 AM PST by 7thson

I just watched a trailer of the new movie coming out - 300. It looks fairly decent. Anyone have anything to say about the movie? There are scenes where the talk about freedom and being free. I do not know the history of back then, but watching the trailer, I seemed to get a connection with what is going on in the world right now concerning the WOT and the storyline of the movie. They go against Persia - modern day Iran. 300 against one million - the United States against the world. Am I reading too much into this? Has anyone have any inside info concerning the movie and/or storyline?


TOPICS: TV/Movies
KEYWORDS: 300; ancienthistory; battleofthermopylae; frankmiller; godsgravesglyphs; greece; iran; laststand; persian; sparta; spartans; thermopylae; threehundred
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1 posted on 01/16/2007 5:11:54 AM PST by 7thson
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To: 7thson

The movie is, like Sin City, based on his graphic novel.

The graphic novel was great. Occasionally the art was a little underimpressive, but the writing was phenomenal.

However, the release date means the movie is a dud (at least, according to Hollywood), since it's not out around the peak seasons for what the wheels consider major moneymaker pics.


2 posted on 01/16/2007 5:20:23 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (When personal character isn't relevant to voters or party leaders, Foley happens.)
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To: 7thson

And, by the way, the 300 is based upon history. Sparta defending all of Greece against a Persian invasion through Thermopylae. Spartans weren't exactly some grand democratic example, but the story is an impressive one insofar as it makes a strong statement of the nobility of self-sacrifice. That might be a message Hollywood expects to be selling poorly around now.


3 posted on 01/16/2007 5:23:19 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (When personal character isn't relevant to voters or party leaders, Foley happens.)
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To: LibertarianInExile; SunkenCiv
It is about the Battle of Thermopyle

I wonder if they are going to compare President Bush with Xerxes.
4 posted on 01/16/2007 5:25:30 AM PST by Perdogg (Happy 2007)
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To: 7thson

DO NOT go see this movie, if you are looking for historical movie. You will be sorely disappointed. It is based on a graphic novel in a historical setting, not history.

With that said, Frank Miller does some great writing, and 300 is a very good read.


5 posted on 01/16/2007 5:30:18 AM PST by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: 7thson
There are scenes where the talk about freedom and being free.

Quite unfortunately, freedom for the Spartans, as they defined it, required the institutionalized enslavement, torture and murder of tens of thousands. The Spartans had a great deal more in common with the Nazis than with Americans.

We can still respect and honor their bravery, but for myself only in the sense that I can honor the same characteristics in the SS.

Not that their Greek allies or Persian enemies were exactly American in their ideals either.

6 posted on 01/16/2007 5:51:24 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Turbo Pig

Ephialtes is alive and well. He is a lefty Dem. In fact we are inhabited by an army of Ephialtes. They look forward to the moment when they can betray their own country.

Is that going too far? Is that terrible of me to say something like that? Afterall, they support the troops. "How could you say that?". Witness Kucinich, Conyers, Moran, McDermott, Murtha, Boxer, Kennedy, shall I go on? I didn't even mention the Ephialtesian citizens. Sheehan. Moore. Clooney. Sean Penn. etc. etc. etc. And etc. etc. etc.


7 posted on 01/16/2007 5:53:59 AM PST by dangerbird
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To: Perdogg

Even better than that (and I always forget this) it's the origin of the eternal cry of those protecting their freedom, "MOLON LABE!"


8 posted on 01/16/2007 5:55:55 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (When personal character isn't relevant to voters or party leaders, Foley happens.)
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To: Turbo Pig

Out of curiosity, what historical issues were present in 'the 300?' I'm not spoiling for a debate here, just interested.


9 posted on 01/16/2007 5:58:04 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (When personal character isn't relevant to voters or party leaders, Foley happens.)
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To: Turbo Pig

Out of curiosity, what historical issues were present in 'the 300?' I'm not spoiling for a debate here, just interested.


10 posted on 01/16/2007 5:58:53 AM PST by LibertarianInExile (When personal character isn't relevant to voters or party leaders, Foley happens.)
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To: dangerbird; Turbo Pig
No - you are not going too far. If anything, you are guilty of not going far enough. I tire of the talking head mantra of not questioning their patriotism. I do question their patriotism as well as their loyalty to this country. By the way, I do not know who Ephialtes is.

Some time ago, another poster made a very persuasive argument - in my view - that President Bush should have had Congress declare war against all terrorist nations. Being officialy sanctioned, we could then jail the likes of Moore, Murtha, Sheehan, Clark, et al. We could shut down newpapers such as the LA and NY Times. We could move are military around with boldness and daring vice begging hat in hand to a timid Congress. Alas, as the President himself has said - there are no do-overs in real life.

Turbo - since I saw monsters and such in the trailer, I kind of realized it was not going to be a historically accurate account of the times.

11 posted on 01/16/2007 6:02:22 AM PST by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: 7thson
My understanding is that Miller's "graphic novel" is based on the great B-movie from the 1960's, The 300 Spartans. No need to see a remake -- the orginal was just fine.


12 posted on 01/16/2007 6:02:28 AM PST by Cincinatus (Omnia relinquit servare Republicam)
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To: 7thson

Leonidas BUMP


13 posted on 01/16/2007 6:04:39 AM PST by TADSLOS (Iran is in the IED exporting business. Time to shut them down.)
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To: LibertarianInExile

My other tattoo

14 posted on 01/16/2007 6:04:47 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: 7thson; Perdogg

Thanks Perdogg for the ping. 7thson, it seems to me that there's a topic about this movie, somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it. I've not seen it. The Spartan sacrifice at Thermopylae was a holding action which delayed the Persian advance a few days, and also it was a political maneuver to recover some prestige for Sparta, which a few years earlier had refused to participate in the defense of Greece, and saw Athens and other cities whip the Persians at the Battle of Marathon.

The Greeks had also withdrawn before the Persian navy, and the Persian army sacked Athens (the carved proclamation to the inhabitants to take refuge in the hills ahead of time actually still exists), then was lured into the Bay of Salamis by Themistocles' famous ruse. The Battle of Salamis eliminated the Persian navy, and led Xerxes the Persian king to retreat in a hurry to Anatolia.

The combined Greek armies, including that of Sparta, defeated the Persian land forces at Plataea.

During the Pelopponesian War the Spartans took money from the Persians, the latter being interested in the defeat and destruction of Athens and the divisions within Greece, with a view to keeping them out of Persia's business in Anatolia. The strategy worked, but Alexander the Great conquered Greece, and led a united Greek and Macedonian army across the Persian Empire.

Themistocles also wound up on the Persian payroll, ruling as a governor or something in one of the cities of Asia Minor which had been conquered by the Persians. His home city, Athens, had voted to ostracize him, and he was banished from the city for ten years. He never went back. If you're looking for a metaphor...


15 posted on 01/16/2007 6:05:34 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not." -- John Rummel)
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To: Sherman Logan

Well put!!!


16 posted on 01/16/2007 6:07:34 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not." -- John Rummel)
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To: SunkenCiv

So, bottom line, from your post and others, is that the movie looks likes a good war/action flick and that should be the only reason to see it.


17 posted on 01/16/2007 6:15:56 AM PST by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: 7thson
For a very good novel about this battle read
Steven Pressfield's, Gates of Fire.
18 posted on 01/16/2007 6:19:33 AM PST by The Louiswu (Never Forget!)
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To: 7thson
Am I reading too much into this?

Probably not - Miller's a libertarian with a strong love of America.

He wants to write a comic book in which Batman fights al-Qaeda, after all.

19 posted on 01/16/2007 6:37:05 AM PST by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: highball

Concerning Frank Miller - I watched a history of comic books program a few years back. I think it was Denny O'Neil - I could be wrong - who said about Miller that he would be even better if he didn't hate comic books so much. The person saying this never elaborated on it. I thought it a strange statement considering some of the fantastic stuff Frank Miller has done. His revamping The Batman turned that character around and ever since, every writer and artist has worked from Miller's perspective. His second take on the Dark Knight was - IMO - not as good as the first.


20 posted on 01/16/2007 6:53:58 AM PST by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: Cincinatus

It was indeed. I saw it a few weeks ago.


21 posted on 01/16/2007 6:56:16 AM PST by 95 Bravo ("Freedom is not free.")
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To: 7thson

The special effects look absurdly fake.


22 posted on 01/16/2007 6:58:51 AM PST by montag813
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To: TC Rider

what is that tatoo?


23 posted on 01/16/2007 6:59:21 AM PST by montag813
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To: 7thson

I dunno, have not seen it. Historically and philosophically, the Spartans don't make a good role model. However, it's difficult not to be moved by the Greek inscription at the site of the last stand at Thermopylae.


24 posted on 01/16/2007 7:03:38 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not." -- John Rummel)
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To: 7thson
His revamping The Batman turned that character around and ever since, every writer and artist has worked from Miller's perspective.

True, but I'm not sure that was really a good thing for the character.

His second take on the Dark Knight was - IMO - not as good as the first.

That's putting it mildly - it was terrible.

25 posted on 01/16/2007 7:10:32 AM PST by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: 7thson
A great fictional but historically accurate narrative about Thermopylae is Gates of Fire

It is the same kind of fictional narrative that "Killer Angels" was about the Battle of Gettysburg. One of the studios was planning to turn Gates of Fire into a movie. However, after "Alexander" and "Troy" tanked at the box office, the movie plans were scrapped

26 posted on 01/16/2007 7:14:55 AM PST by eeman
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To: Sherman Logan

Well before comparing them with the Nazi's please factor in 2600 years of human history, will you. The ancient world was not the modern world, and applying 20th Century ideals to it is not going to result in understanding it better.


27 posted on 01/16/2007 7:16:53 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: TC Rider

That's excellent. Are you of Greek extraction, or just a fan of the saying? (or both)


28 posted on 01/16/2007 7:24:47 AM PST by visualops (artlife.us)
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To: SunkenCiv
At the Keramikos museum in Athens, you can see one of the pottery shards used to ostracise Themistocles.

At the museum in Olympia, you can see a Persian helmet sent to the sanctuary by the Athenians from Marathon.

It's amazing.

29 posted on 01/16/2007 7:27:49 AM PST by pierrem15 (Charles Martel: past and future of France)
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To: LibertarianInExile

I don't know if dud is quite the right word. Clearly they aren't expecting it to be a blockbuster, which given that it's a movie about a battle that 99% of the populace never heard of is a smart expectation. But they aren't releasing it in January, which is when they put out movies they were seriously thinking of releasing direct to video (and often should have).


30 posted on 01/16/2007 7:28:55 AM PST by discostu (Feed her some hungry reggae, she'll love you twice)
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To: montag813

It is a Spartan warrior, with the inscription 'molon labe', or 'come and take them'.

That was King Leonidas' response to the Persians when they implored the Spartans to lay down their arms.


31 posted on 01/16/2007 7:31:35 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: visualops
That's excellent. Are you of Greek extraction, or just a fan of the saying? (or both)

Not Greek, just fond of the saying and it's meaning within the RKBA community.

32 posted on 01/16/2007 7:32:27 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: 7thson
Being officialy sanctioned, we could then jail the likes of Moore, Murtha, Sheehan, Clark, et al. We could shut down newpapers such as the LA and NY Times.

Wow we could?!? To hell with the First Amendment eh? Lock 'em up and toss the key. You do know that is illegal don't you? I've never read 300 but seeing the helmet and then the number any student of history should know what it's based on (which outside of Vic Hansen land is not in any way related to the WOST)

Knowing it's Miller I know it would be a loose basing at best but because it's Miller I will be going to see it.

33 posted on 01/16/2007 7:38:22 AM PST by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: TC Rider

Go tell the Spartans,
Passerby,
That here, obedient to their laws,
We lie.

Simonides, Epitaph for the Spartans who fell at Thermopylae
Greek poet (556 BC - 468 BC)


34 posted on 01/16/2007 7:50:31 AM PST by Comstock1 (If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.)
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To: 7thson

Come and take them!

35 posted on 01/16/2007 7:53:42 AM PST by Doomonyou (I voted and all I got was a FUBAR Congress.)
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To: Jack Black

Agreed. However, the Spartans were exceptional in their brutality even for the time. Although they never had any intent of conquering the world, they implemented Nazi-type practices in their small corner of it about as completely as any group ever has.

Actually, most all peoples before the development of Christianity and Islam had a master race mentality. They only differed about which group was supposed to be the master. :)


36 posted on 01/16/2007 8:17:50 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: LibertarianInExile
Ok, let me say that I know a lot of historical war gamers, and history writers. You know the type; they are worried about the color of the French Dragoons epilettes, or what exactly was some Leftenant's intention at some lonely out post in the Sudan. Great guys, one and all, but they think too much. Every time a movie comes out like this I here about all the historical inaccuracies.

I have to remind them that it's Hollywood, not a history book. Frank Miller wrote a graphic novel, not a thesis on Thermopolye. The dialog and sensibilities are contemporary, the action is way over the top comic book style, and the history has been bent to fit the story.

If you can not over look these things, then you will be disappointed. If you can put that aside, and accept that you are watching movieized graphic novel you can be entertained.

The positive about it all, is that it very well could induce some public skrewl kids to go out and actually learn about one of the most important battles in western history.
37 posted on 01/16/2007 8:25:40 AM PST by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: montag813
The special effects look absurdly fake.

That's the point of them. The movie is supposed to look like a comic book. That's the appeal. I'm not sure how far it will take the film, though.

38 posted on 01/16/2007 8:29:42 AM PST by Turbo Pig (...to close with and destroy the enemy...)
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To: Sherman Logan

My impression is that Islam always did, and still has, a master race mentality.


39 posted on 01/16/2007 8:30:22 AM PST by Excellence (Vote Dhimmocrat; Submit for Peace! (Bacon bits make great confetti.))
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To: 7thson

Has anyone have any inside info concerning the movie and/or storyline?

yes,



it's a bowling movie.


40 posted on 01/16/2007 8:32:00 AM PST by WhiteGuy (GOP Congress - 16,000 earmarks costing US $50 billion in 2006 - PAUL2008)
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To: Excellence
My impression is that Islam always did, and still has, a master race mentality.

Except that their view has nothing to do with "race" or ethnicity or heredity. It's a sense of entitlement to rule that is based on religion . Anybody who wants to can join simply by converting.

This is very different from the Spartan or Nazi view of things, where you have to be born into the "master race." You can't join up.

From a purely practical standpoint, a "master group" you can join is likely to defeat one based on heredity. Getting lots of your potential opponents to join your side makes a lot of sense. The Romans were really good at this, a major reason they conquered and ruled more of the ancient world than anybody else.

41 posted on 01/16/2007 8:39:44 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

I highly recommend the book "Civilization and its Enemies" by Lee Harris. He discusses the Spartans at length and draws some interesting conclusions.


42 posted on 01/16/2007 8:46:27 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black

So which group were the Spartans in?


43 posted on 01/16/2007 8:47:04 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: All

Leonidas hand picked the 300 because they were all FATHERS.

The men all left sons behind who would carry on the blood line of the brave men.


For those who don't know this is where we get the phrase MOLON LABE. (come get them) This was when the persians demanded the spartans surrender and leave their weapons behind. The spartan replied by saying come get them.

There is much MISinformation about the ancients (having studied the real deal in Greece). So be wary of folks who are too quick to view the ancient world with revisionist history lenses.


44 posted on 01/16/2007 8:52:12 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Turbo Pig
I have to remind them that it's Hollywood, not a history book.

Well put.

It isn't a documentary, it's fiction. Based on true events, but fiction nonetheless.

45 posted on 01/16/2007 8:56:16 AM PST by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: highball

you mean the "liberty kids" from PBS are not real! say it ain't so!

(/s)


46 posted on 01/16/2007 9:13:56 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: billbears

In an officially declared war, printing battles plans for Iraq, telling the public about going after bank transactions, and our eavesdropping on terrorists phone calls falls more under treason than Freedom of Speech. Going to Iraq and holding hands with a terroristic dictator is also treasonous.


47 posted on 01/16/2007 9:15:25 AM PST by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: longtermmemmory; TC Rider
MOLON LABE.

Would today's equivalent be "bring it on!"

48 posted on 01/16/2007 9:24:22 AM PST by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: Sherman Logan
His point was that the Spartan system, as overbearing as it was, was among the first that asked people to trade tribal identity for national identity, and imposed a universal set of requirements on its citizens. He sees this as a break through, and one that much of the Islamic world is still fighting. So he views the Spartans as an important early component of the creation of the philosphical underpinnings of civilization.

I am not doing his argumnets justice. It's been three years since I read the book and I don't have a copy handy to refresh my memory.

None the less I suspect you would enjoy it.

49 posted on 01/16/2007 9:42:59 AM PST by Jack Black
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To: Sherman Logan

Really I think it's over the top to associate "master race" ideology with Sparta. Sure, Spartans fought their share of wars, as all the Greek city states did. But I've never heard of them setting out to genocide another race in total.


50 posted on 01/16/2007 9:47:09 AM PST by Jack Black
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