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Who Owns Israel? The Jews or the Arabs?
From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters | 10/17/07 | Psychic Dice

Posted on 11/17/2007 9:31:32 PM PST by Psychic Dice

Who is the rightful owner of the land now occupied by Israel? Anyone interested in a fair solution to the Palestian/Israeli question has to ask this question.

Back in the 1970s Joan Peters was a liberal who set out to prove that American policies were the cause of conflicts going on there. Two years into her research she realize that she had it wrong. Her book From Time Immemorial (The Origins Of The Arab Jewish Conflict Over Palestine) details what she discovered.

It is a tome (600 pages) and isn’t a recent release. Although I remember its 1984 publication, I didn’t read it until two year ago.

To be honest, most Jews don’t know this history – especially the young who have recently gone through American universities. Many of them believe that underneath it all the Israelis ripped off the Arabs. Peters documents a very different history.

Peters discovered that the Arab propaganda machine had - for some time - been convincing the West of three lies: • 1) The Jews and Arabs got along famously for the last 1,200 years before the Zionists came along. • 2) Millions of Arabs had owned and worked the land of Palestine from time immemorial. • 3) The Jews drove those millions off their land in 1948.

Having researched thousand of sources: British libraries, Ottoman and other Muslim records, many living Jews and Muslims (including Yasser Arafat), Winston Churchill, even Mark Twain, Peters shows that: • 1) Every Muslim country perpetuated third or fourth class citizenship on its Jewish populations for 12 centuries through habitual mass murders, rapes, extortion, theft, beatings, lies, and many other special rules that would make the Third Reich proud. • 2) Islam reduced the thriving population of the Holy Land (including what is now Jordan) from millions in the 8th Century to mere hundreds of thousands as it over and over and over and over again and again and again and again looted it - until most of the land was owned by three families of Syrians in Damascus. In 1887, 60,000 Jews and a couple thousand less Muslims (only 28,000 of which were Bedouin Arabs who were nomadic, not land owners) lived within the boundaries of what would become the modern day Israel. • 3) In 1948, the only Muslims who were not allowed to return to their land after seven Islamic countries declared war on Israel were the ones who had left Israel to fight against the Jews.

From Time Immemorial documents precisely why the Israelis are right and why we are right to back them.


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1 posted on 11/17/2007 9:31:34 PM PST by Psychic Dice
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To: Psychic Dice

Answer = whoever can control and defend it.


2 posted on 11/17/2007 9:33:06 PM PST by Mad_Tom_Rackham (Elections have consequences.)
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To: Mad_Tom_Rackham

bump


3 posted on 11/17/2007 9:37:48 PM PST by Eva
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To: Psychic Dice

God gave what is now Israel to the Jews
It’s theirs


4 posted on 11/17/2007 9:41:24 PM PST by LeoWindhorse
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To: Psychic Dice

Answer = God


5 posted on 11/17/2007 9:41:45 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Psychic Dice

For most of US generations hell-fire Christian preachers condemned Jews as the the ones who killed Christ.

Of course, now we are enlightened due to politics and this has always been a Judeo-Christian nation.

I say it belongs to the Jews. Nothing to do with being Republican, of course.


6 posted on 11/17/2007 9:45:14 PM PST by freedom44
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To: Grizzled Bear

Bump THAT!


7 posted on 11/17/2007 9:45:59 PM PST by Bradĺs Gramma (Mother of the Bride here, treat me with respect for once, will ya? ;))
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To: Psychic Dice
3) The Jews drove those millions off their land in 1948.

Wrong. The Arab nations called on the Arabs living in Israel to “come out so that we may cleanse the land.”

They abandoned their homes anticipating a quick return after the "war." Unfortunately for them the Arab armies were repelled by the Israelis who were using antiquated and inferior military equipment.

The food in the larders and the water in the cisterns found at the abandoned houses saved the Israelis from starvation and dehydration until they could grow/collect their own resources.

8 posted on 11/17/2007 9:46:36 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Psychic Dice

Israel consists of Jews, Muslims and Christians, of European, African and Arab descent, living together under a democratically elected government. So the answer to the question is, “The Israelis do.”


9 posted on 11/17/2007 9:49:13 PM PST by Fabozz
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To: Psychic Dice; All

God is the owner, the occupants just rent...


10 posted on 11/17/2007 9:57:13 PM PST by UFC Pride K1
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To: Psychic Dice

“Who is the rightful owner of the land now occupied by Israel?”

Like the United States, those who will fight for it, deserve to own it. Those who won’t are just mostly traitors and scabs and should go elsewhere.


11 posted on 11/17/2007 10:02:16 PM PST by JSteff
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To: UFC Pride K1; All
God is the owner, the occupants just rent...

You know, I think I agree with you; of course, the same could be said of other nations - especially the United States - and of late, we've been lax in "paying the rent" as it were.

God may just decide to evict us and give his blessings to others who give Him the Praise and Honour He desires.

12 posted on 11/17/2007 10:18:30 PM PST by Friend_from_the_Frozen_North (If you are, as Rush would say, "A Glittering Jewel of Colossal Ignorance" don't waste my time...)
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To: freedom44

I guess they conveniently forgot that Jesus was born a Jew and that the New Testament is the completion of the story of God’s relationship with His chosen people. The land of Israel was given to them by God and it will always belong to them. It actually has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with God who, unlike politicians, ALWAYS keeps His promises.


13 posted on 11/17/2007 10:24:39 PM PST by srmorton (Choose life!)
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To: Psychic Dice

Has anyone looked into what kind of rent the Jews could collect if they rented it out and lived in another country?


14 posted on 11/17/2007 10:59:25 PM PST by ansel12 (Proud father of a 10th Mountain veteran. Proud son of a WWII vet. Proud brother of vets, Airborne)
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To: srmorton
""Son of man, the citizens of Jerusalem (the Jews) are telling the rest of the House of Israel, that since they were sent away from God, that it is to them that the land has been given as their domain. Say therefore, The Lord says this: 'Yes, I have sent them far away among the nations, and I have dispersed them to foreign countries...but I will gather them together from among the peoples, I will bring them all back from the countries where they have been scattered and I will give them the land of Israel."Ez.11:14-21

God's chosen are those who believe in him.

15 posted on 11/17/2007 11:04:37 PM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: Fabozz
Israel consists of Jews, Muslims and Christians, of European, African and Arab descent, living together under a democratically elected government. So the answer to the question is, “The Israelis do.”
Best Answer Ever. End of Thread.
16 posted on 11/17/2007 11:06:12 PM PST by ketsu
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To: Mad_Tom_Rackham

Might is Right bump.


17 posted on 11/17/2007 11:07:29 PM PST by joseph20 (...to ourselves and our Posterity...)
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To: ketsu
"Best Answer Ever. End of Thread."

Absolutely.

18 posted on 11/17/2007 11:08:58 PM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: freedom44
For most of US generations hell-fire Christian preachers condemned Jews as the the ones who killed Christ.

You've been watching too much Hollywood's presentation of Christianity.

I'm 50 and Southern Baptist and have never in my entire life heard a Protestant preacher down south argue against Jews belonging in Israel as their land.

Where do you get this notion?

19 posted on 11/17/2007 11:12:20 PM PST by wardaddy (This country is being destroyed by folks who could have never created it.)
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To: srmorton

Why did you buy into his premise...offered just anecdotally.

It’s a myth.

Like all these new Christians just discovered Jesus was Hebrew...give me a break.


20 posted on 11/17/2007 11:13:32 PM PST by wardaddy (This country is being destroyed by folks who could have never created it.)
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To: Psychic Dice

A good book. Thanks for posting.

bump.


21 posted on 11/17/2007 11:18:19 PM PST by Poincare
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To: wardaddy

Study history. Jews killed Christ according to most hell-fire preachers.

Now welcome to Modern day politics.


22 posted on 11/17/2007 11:39:07 PM PST by freedom44
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To: Psychic Dice

Who can hold it?
W/o Big Daddy Sucker’s help, that is!


23 posted on 11/18/2007 4:44:41 AM PST by gunnyg
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To: freedom44

Your sins and mine put him on the cross. The good news is he is no longer there! (See tags)


24 posted on 11/18/2007 5:40:45 AM PST by 444Flyer ("Oly Oly Oxen Free!" Rev 22:17,John 3:1-36, Jeremiah 29:13,Jude 9, Eph 6, Rev 12:11)
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To: Grizzled Bear

Hmmm, sounds familiar:

10 When the LORD your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deut 6


25 posted on 11/18/2007 5:41:47 AM PST by naturalized ("The time has come," He said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!")
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To: gunnyg

Loaded for bear.


26 posted on 11/18/2007 5:43:39 AM PST by 444Flyer ("Oly Oly Oxen Free!" Rev 22:17,John 3:1-36, Jeremiah 29:13,Jude 9, Eph 6, Rev 12:11)
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To: 444Flyer

Correction...Your sins and mine put Him on the cross.


27 posted on 11/18/2007 5:46:17 AM PST by 444Flyer ("Oly Oly Oxen Free!" Rev 22:17,John 3:1-36, Jeremiah 29:13,Jude 9, Eph 6, Rev 12:11)
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To: freedom44
Hardly ~ Jews weren't a big issue at all for most Christians in the United States.

I think you are confounding Father Coughlin, a rogue Catholic priest, with Christianity.

The United States was the first country on Earth to fully enfranchise all Jews, Protestants and Catholics equally and without reservation.

28 posted on 11/18/2007 6:12:12 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: freedom44
Hardly ~ Jews weren't a big issue at all for most Christians in the United States.

I think you are confounding Father Coughlin, a rogue Catholic priest, with Christianity.

The United States was the first country on Earth to fully enfranchise all Jews, Protestants and Catholics equally and without reservation.

29 posted on 11/18/2007 6:12:12 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: ansel12
Has anyone looked into what kind of rent the Jews could collect if they rented it out and lived in another country?

The arabs couldn't pay the rent. They would take what the Jews would leave behind and trash it. Like they did with the greenhouses they received when the Jews abandoned Gaza.

30 posted on 11/18/2007 6:19:57 AM PST by jslade (The only thing you should FEEL when shooting insurgents is the rifle recoil.)
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To: freedom44

The only thing new is modern preachers being so darned ecumenical with everyone.

Jesus was crucified by Romans at the request of Jewish Pharisees and others.

A few Pharisees and prominent Jews were against it as was Pontius Pilate and his wife.

That is the history I know. Nothing has changed.

I don’t know what you mean by hell fire preachers unless you are referring to gospel preachers in general.

I think where politics has changed the landscape today is that whereas once maybe American Christians were ambivalent about Jews, now that they are surrounded in Israel (a new entity) by savages basically and combined with the slaughter many Jews experienced in WWII, that most Christians are now sympathetic to Jews probably more so than to any other unsaved group. I am that sort of Christian

LOL...which is ironic, since I believe more Jews are now more openly negative to Christians and Christian culture in the US than ever before.

Some of this is just human nature.

PS...it is only on FR where these unusual “Zionist” Christians fixate on the Jesus was Jewish end of things.


31 posted on 11/18/2007 9:30:41 AM PST by wardaddy (This country is being destroyed by folks who could have never created it.)
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To: freedom44
Jews killed Christ according to most hell-fire preachers.

Well in all honesty, they were not empowered by Rome to do that, but they rigged a phony trial to convict Him, and demanded that Rome carry out the sentence.

Given the opportunity to save Jesus from Crucifixion they chose to free Barabas, so in that sense they were absolutely guilty.

32 posted on 11/18/2007 10:26:02 PM PST by itsahoot (Gingrich: "We don't have a peace process. We have a surrender process." (Duncan Hunter gets it.))
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To: Psychic Dice
I can tell you who I think owns Israel as my Great Grandfather who lived in Missouri purchased land in Israel in 1926 from a company that was helping set up farming communities there. There was a company called AMERICAN ZION COMMONWEALTH, INC that sold land to American Jews beginning in 1926 in an area that is now called Afula, Israel. This land was purchased from its then owners who were Jordanians by American Zion Commonwealth. They did not steal the land from the Arab’s. In fact the British called the area Palestine.

The Jews did not steal from the Arab’s. Look at Israel and compare that small nation to the rest of the Arab world. Its like comparing the Island of Manhattan to the rest of the United States. Israel is a pimple compared to the land mass of the Arab world.

I have a copy of the Land contract and Deed as registered in 1926 in my posession.

33 posted on 11/21/2007 2:48:21 PM PST by ncfool (Savage said that Islam is a Peaceful religion. Your very peaceful after they slit your throat!)
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To: jslade
Look at at what the Arab’s made of the land pre 1948 or 1967 war. Nothing. The Israeli made the desert bloom.
34 posted on 11/21/2007 2:51:24 PM PST by ncfool (Savage said that Islam is a Peaceful religion. Your very peaceful after they slit your throat!)
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To: wardaddy
Jesus was crucified by Romans at the request of Jewish Pharisees and others.

Read again. No Pharisees. It was Sadducees, largely found in the priestly caste.
35 posted on 11/21/2007 3:10:09 PM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: Psychic Dice

Isn’t posession 9/10ths of the law?


36 posted on 11/21/2007 3:11:45 PM PST by ▀udda▀udd (7 days - 7 ways Guero >>> with a floating, shifting, ever changing persona....)
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To: All

Israel is a democratic-republic therefore it is “owned” by its citizens. 20% of those citizens are non-Jewish Israeli Arabs who are Muslim, Druze and Christians.
To contrast the non-Jewish population of Israel with the US, 13% of Americans are black and 14.5% of American citizens are Latino.
76% of Israelis are Jews, 20% are Arabs and 4% are “unaffliated”, secular immigrants, primarily from Russia and other eastern European republics.


37 posted on 11/21/2007 3:17:50 PM PST by jamese777
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To: safisoft

What about John 11?


38 posted on 11/21/2007 3:19:16 PM PST by wardaddy (This country is being destroyed by folks who could have never created it.)
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To: wardaddy
What about John 11?

Look into it. When Yosef ben Chayifa (Caiphus) adjurned an illegal court, the Pharisees would not participate.
39 posted on 11/21/2007 3:29:22 PM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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To: Psychic Dice
It's a great book, very illuminating.

But, fundamentally it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. Hitler was right about the Sudetenland and Danzig being historically German, but it still started WWII. That's why irredentism has been discredited as a ground for war. The solution instead is partition and exchange populations, not fight wars.

This is the only area in the world where diplomats encourage irredentism, which has gotten a bad name everywhere else in the world for starting wars. It's abetted by the UN running those hideous "refugee" camps that add gasoline to the fire. Instead of encouraging Arab irredentism, the world ought to recognize the UN's 1948 decision was the only one that can lead to peace, which means partition into a Jewish and Arab state, which has effectively been done after 50+ years of Israel's existence.

40 posted on 11/21/2007 3:34:06 PM PST by colorado tanker (I'm unmoderated - just ask Bill O'Reilly)
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To: ncfool

>>I can tell you who I think owns Israel as my Great Grandfather who lived in Missouri purchased land in Israel in 1926 from a company that was helping set up farming communities there.

That’s one of the things that Joan Peters figured out - that most of modern day Israel was purchased from the Muslim owners, most of whom were three families of Syrians in Damascus.

One of the things that complicated transparency of those transactions was that the Muslims who sold the land did not want to be killed by other Islamics for doing so. Syria and many other Muslim countries had laws against selling to Jews, so many of the deals were secret (but well documented).

The word Zion is in the name of the bank you referenced. Often Hertzel is demonized by modern Arabs for his Zionist back to Israel movement.

Joan Peters discovered that for 1,200 years Arabs abused “their” Jews so terribly that those Jews often prayed for redemption by returning to Israel. She documents contact between them and Hertzel. It was they who implored and inspired him, not the other way around. In this interpretation, the brutality of the Arabs necessitated modern Israel.

Some of the Jews in Arab countries were backwards by at least a thousand years. At one point the Israeli air force rescues a group of them. Because they had never seen a plane before they thought that their prayers had been answered as they were magically lifted through the air. In fact, the pilots had to put out the fire they built on the floor of the plane.


41 posted on 11/21/2007 3:52:18 PM PST by Psychic Dice (ArtOfPsychicDice.com)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

High Volume. Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking on the Topic or Keyword Israel. or WOT [War on Terror]

----------------------------

42 posted on 11/21/2007 4:25:41 PM PST by SJackson (seems to me it is entirely proper to start a Zionist State around Jerusalem, T Roosevelt, neocon)
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To: Psychic Dice
HaShem owns it (along with the rest of the universe), and He has allotted it to `Am Yisra'el as their homeland and as the sacristy of the human race, where the chosen priestly Nation performs the Divine Service and the fullness of the mitzvot.

I'm sick to my stomach of the non-Theistic reasons that are given for every position in existence nowadays.

Ultimately, to believe in G-d is to be a Theocrat. And the only thing that can be said to objectors is "tough nuggies."

43 posted on 11/21/2007 4:29:08 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' Ya`aqov ye'amer `od shimkha ki-'im Yisra'el; ki-sariyta `im-'Eloqim ve`im-'anashim vatukhal.)
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To: freedom44
For most of US generations hell-fire Christian preachers condemned Jews as the the ones who killed Christ.

That's the official liberal line, but it's the American "hell-fire" preachers who have supported Jewish claims to Israel for over three hundred years. And the "deicide" charge has never been big among American Fundamentalist Protestants.

44 posted on 11/21/2007 4:31:23 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' Ya`aqov ye'amer `od shimkha ki-'im Yisra'el; ki-sariyta `im-'Eloqim ve`im-'anashim vatukhal.)
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To: wardaddy
I'm 50 and Southern Baptist and have never in my entire life heard a Protestant preacher down south argue against Jews belonging in Israel as their land....Where do you get this notion?

Well there were some. Just like there were Protestants that ran down Catholics, and probably Catholics that ran down Protestants. This has been a blessed nation for Jews to live in because of our tradition of religious tolerance, not established to protect Jews or Muslims or Hindus from Christians, but to leave behind the European horror of inter-denominational persecution.

BTW, if you want to hear a Protestant preacher argue against Jews I could probably find one, though I can't guarantee it will be down south.

45 posted on 11/21/2007 4:33:56 PM PST by SJackson (seems to me it is entirely proper to start a Zionist State around Jerusalem, T Roosevelt, neocon)
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To: ncfool
I have a copy of the Land contract and Deed as registered in 1926 in my posession.

Wow, Herzliya, home of the Herzliya conference.

Tel Aviv 15 years before your Great Grandfather made his purchase.

Today


46 posted on 11/21/2007 4:39:27 PM PST by SJackson (seems to me it is entirely proper to start a Zionist State around Jerusalem, T Roosevelt, neocon)
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To: Psychic Dice

Just a guess: most of the land titles have Jews as owners.


47 posted on 11/21/2007 4:41:46 PM PST by RightWhale (anti-razors are pro-life)
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To: ▀udda▀udd

>>Isn’t possession 9/10ths of the law?

My title didn’t quite ask what I meant. In the past I was trying to find out who ethically and historically had a right to modern Israel.

Agreed, possession is 9/10ths. History is fraught with examples. Neanderthals can make a better case than Cro Mags that Europe belongs to them, but there are none to tell it to the judge.

A lot of Jews and a whole lot more Arabs claim a right to the land that is now Israel. This matters because they are constantly at war. I wanted to figure out whether my country’s support of Israel was just or whether as the Arabs claim we are propping up greedy, kick ass Europeans who are taking advantage of unsuspecting, naive, poor Muslims.

Joan Peter’s book From Time Immemorial answered my question.


48 posted on 11/21/2007 4:47:22 PM PST by Psychic Dice (ArtOfPsychicDice.com)
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To: Psychic Dice

God (Yahweh).


49 posted on 11/21/2007 4:54:14 PM PST by madison10
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To: freedom44
Study history. Jews killed Christ according to most hell-fire preachers. Now welcome to Modern day politics.

I think that's the KKK version of Christianity.Not one I've ever heard preached.

50 posted on 11/21/2007 4:55:58 PM PST by madison10
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