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The Hobbit Hole XXXVIII - There and Back Again!

Posted on 09/23/2009 6:19:16 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog

Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!



TOPICS: The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: corinnumber1; firstkeyword; jrgotanewjob; secondprecious
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To: 300winmag

Evening Win-Mag; shooting testing, cool. Looks to me like the CCI is a smidge better, based on your groups. The remington shot better than I expected. Haven’t shot enough recent Winchester to comment. Every gun seems to be a prefer one brand over another according to ‘range-experts’ I’ve talked with, a lot of variables to consider. You’ve done a great job with your testing and documentation. Kudos.


3,751 posted on 03/04/2012 4:08:46 PM PST by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman; Ramius; g'nad; Squantos; ExGeeEye
After hearing that firearms sales this election year are forming the same curve they did in September 2008, I figured I wouldn't wait around until September. So, in preparation for a suppressor in the near future (I hope), I decided it was time to get the Ruger 10/22 project started. So I stopped by my regular EBR store, and picked up a baseline Ruger 10/22 Target. Here it is in all its factory-stock splendor.

Sixteen-inch .925 bull barrel, with target chamber and bore specs, beech sporter-type stock, and a clone of a Harris bipod. I temporarily liberated a scope from another rifle. Street price of $400 (less scope) was $100 less than deluxe models with 18" stainless barrels, and a more "target-type" laminated stock.

The stock will be the first thing to go, replaced by a Bell & Carlson Kevlar target/tactical stock optimized for firing from a rest. I also ordered a bunch of minor parts (extended bolt handle, oversized safety, plastic bolt buffer, etc.) that would be classified as a "comfort and convenience package" on a new car.

This will let me work out baseline accuracy without grinding my teeth a lot. The most important changes will come towards the end of the program, when I pick the scope that's most appropriate, and the proper bull barrel threaded for a suppressor, and with a 1-in-9 twist to handle the really heavy Aquila 60gr bullets. People who have already reached that destination say the Ruger is then capable of popping small varmints out to 300 yards, a worthy objective.

After applying a break-in treatment of Nanolube on the trigger mechanism, I found their "special target trigger" produced a remarkably consistent 5lb, 10oz pull. While a pull that weight is good for a plinker, I will feel better if I can cut it down at least by half along the way.

If you're a Ruger lawyer, I was just kidding about all that stuff. I read and follow every work in the manual, 90% of it outlined in red, warning of all the dire consequences of violating the other 10% of the manual devoted to operating the weapon.

With luck, tomorrow I'll be able to try out some standard, target, and subsonic brands as the break-in process starts.

3,752 posted on 03/07/2012 1:01:02 AM PST by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Excellent ... Doing same thing with regards to 4 more with the kenyan socialist whore .

Going to build up a 300AAC with intergal suppressor. Texas just passed a new rule to allow use of suppressors for hunting . They allowed such for varmint for a long time now it will be ok for deer etc...

Looking to build a .308 rem 700. The dalibama or mitt the twit will ban ebrs .... Investments an buying from gun runners is key project for 2012.


3,753 posted on 03/07/2012 1:59:18 AM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Squantos; Ramius; g'nad; osagebowman
Quick range report:

Here's 50 rounds of CCI subsonic. I really need to rezero that sight. Anyway, all eight brands of subsonic ammo I have now function flawlessly, except for the ones with "weird" bullet noses. Even the RWS that gave 100% failure-to-feed the first time out.

I simply cannot see why Ruger owners whine about making subsonic ammo work. It's a no-brainer. Buy $300 worth of aftermarket parts, spend 40 hours hand-fitting each part to each other with a diamond-bearing lubricant as a hone, and you're done. Just add a little bit of skill, and a lot of patience, and you have a really nice, accurate, reliable handgun capable of working well with a suppressor.

It's either a labor of love, or you have to be completely crazy, since you'd have to value your time at $50/hour, minimum.

And, it looks like Ruger is requesting another labor of love out of me. At top is 50 rounds of ordinary Winchester .22. No big deal, except I didn't consider this exceptional from a scoped "target rifle" at 25 yards.

I know it's that "target trigger" designed by their lawyers. But with no feedback that the trigger is working, that 5lb, 10oz pull doesn't surprise you when it goes off, it just about scares you. Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, .... (is there a round in the chamber? did something break internally?), BANG! just doesn't cut it for me, even for a plinker.

My M-faux with the GI trigger was tuned for the standard length of first-stage takeup, but with all the grit and stiffness gone. You know the mechanism is working, and the takeup is slick and effortless. Then you feel the trigger resist, and know that you are three pounds away from a crisp, clean, drama-free break. A great system for an amateur, perfectly acceptable for an expert, however.

A lot of Ruger 10/22 owners must have much the same kind of opinions, because there are tons of replacement internal parts including springs and shims. For me, shims are a red light warning me away from that approach.

Fortunately, 100% factory-tuned complete target replacement trigger modules are available, and, surprisingly, cost less than buying every single blasted individual part and doing it yourself. The Volquartsen trigger is on order, and that should be the only accuracy item I still need. Then just a good varmint scope (sales come by all the time), and the type of target barrel I really want, which will probably cost more than the original rifle. That last step can wait until I get a real can in my hands.

Oh, and that stick-on orange target was ten rounds of Remington subsonic. I was so aggravated by then, I didn't feel like sticking around at the range. The good news, it handled every round without trouble, even if not as accurately as I would have liked for one of Ruger's "premium plinkers".

Next project includes finishing the rest of the accuracy (trigger) work on the 10/22, and then using it to test subsonic ammo, again. Also, testing accuracy with the "Paco tools" that Squantos mentioned. Having a rifle that has gone through my wringer gives me confidence that I have eliminated a lot of hidden variables, and the test results will be more conclusive.

3,754 posted on 03/09/2012 2:11:09 AM PST by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Damn fine project 300.....:o)


3,755 posted on 03/09/2012 6:15:29 AM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: 300winmag

Afternoon Win Mag - excellent tuning and testing. The 10-22 is a great platform for you to work your magic with. Most of us continue to labor with stock-as-a-rock weaponry. The 10-22 bull barrel with suitable optics and a carton of .22s makes for one fun afternoon. I’ve heard good things about the 25 round ruger magazine but haven’t tried it myself. Others swear by butler creek. I stick with 10 rounder’s myownself. Good tuning and shooting.


3,756 posted on 03/09/2012 3:24:00 PM PST by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman; Ramius; Squantos
The 10-22 is a great platform for you to work your magic with. Most of us continue to labor with stock-as-a-rock weaponry.

I've come to realize this is not "magic" for me, it's a survival mechanism I've developed after 40+ years of working with computer hardware and software, most of it "bleeding edge". If you don't "sweat the small stuff", you sometimes wake up with the cold sweats at night. The great volume of Murphy's Law(s) says, "nature sides with the hidden flaw".

The B&C stock arrived, and looks great, but they loaded up the inner surfaces with the same textured paint they used on the exterior. For my own peace of mind, I'll remove that interior paint so I know things are bottoming out on the bare gelcoat. Then a careful check on bedding. Common to all 10/22s, everything depends on the single action screw, and two bedding pads in the barrel channel.

Still, the new stock does create a new image for the Ruger, one that seems a bit more "businesslike".

The final scope can be mounted even lower than what's slapped on there now. The high, straight comb, and "hook" for the non-firing hand makes it even easier to handle with a beanbag or bipod in front. Shooting ergonomics just took a giant step forward, at least for my tastes.

3,757 posted on 03/10/2012 1:34:35 AM PST by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: Ramius; Squantos; osagebowman; g'nad
I got the Volquartsen trigger assembly today. It fit right in, and works perfectly. The major benefits are a consistent 2lb, 10oz trigger, and a bolt release that does not drive me to profanity. It's still set the same way, but a slight pull on the bolt handle further to the rear releases it, which is what you'd suspect in the first place. There is only a slight difference in shape between it and the factory part, which is why this little piece of stamped steel is so cheap, even as an aftermarket part. It must be the Ruger lawyers, again.

Other than that, I spent about two hours removing that speckle coating from the inside of the stock. Everything seems to "bottom out" more solidly, and now the magazine again drops free when the mag release is pushed. This really is a "drop-in" product, as long as you don't mind spending a couple of pleasant hours looking things over, and making sure everything feels right. Honestly, for what these stocks cost, you'd think they would stick a molded dummy barreled action into the stock before spraying that paint. Well, at least it beats the factory beech stock, which has lots of raw wood surfaces inside, and can warp or compress.

As of now, the complete unloaded rifle, minus bipod, weighs 8lb, 3oz. With the original stock, the rifle was distinctly muzzle heavy, even without the bipod. Now the balance point is at the middle of the magazine well, which is a good place for starters.

New stock, new trigger, and it feels like a new weapon. Now for another trip to the range, where I expect to shoot it much better than the first time out. I have enough confidence, even though there are several minor parts still en route, that I'll try out a new brand of subsonic ammo, some Ely match, and standard Federal ammo.

3,758 posted on 03/11/2012 1:09:57 AM PST by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Evening Win Mag - your project rifle is really coming along nicely - Volquartsen trigger mmm, nice addition. I think you’ll really enjoy that rifle. .22 rimfires are fun guns.


3,759 posted on 03/11/2012 4:35:01 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
I think you’ll really enjoy that rifle. .22 rimfires are fun guns.

I think everyone should own at least one .22 rifle. The Ruger 10/22 seems to be "America's rimfire", at least as far as customizing and flexibility goes. My 10/22 will be my "go to" EBR (Evil Black Rimfire) while my others will be promoted to "safe queens" and "princesses". Lately, my attitude towards any of my guns with good walnut on them seems to have changed to "look, but don't use". I always am amazed at the quality of walnut used has gone downhill for decades, and is slowly dying out except for the super-high end. Beech is just too sorry to even comment about. For a "using" weapon, give me quality synthetics over cheap wood any day.

And I noticed another "precision" item about the Ruger 10/22 Target-Varmint. The manual says it has a chamber that is closer to accepted match specs. Running a well-worn Hoppe's bore snake through it, I can feel more resistance going through the barrel than on other of my .22s. I'm just grateful for the invention of the bore snake, because I can easily clean from the breech, rather than risk cleaning from the muzzle.

Of course, some 10/22 target purists have a hole drilled in the back of the receiver (not seen when in the stock) so a cleaning rod can be run through when the bolt is removed.

And I have to admit that I've cast covetous eyes on the 10/22 model in stainless steel with the full-length walnut stock. I know it couldn't compete with my current EBR, but it sure is pretty.

3,760 posted on 03/11/2012 11:12:07 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: Ramius; g'nad; osagebowman; Squantos
I think you’ll really enjoy that rifle. .22 rimfires are fun guns.

I HATE my Ruger 10/22. First serious range time for it today, and it's so damn accurate my flaws just jump off the targets, and scream, "BOLO". This is the first time I've been humiliated by my own weapon, and have no excuse available. :)

Seriesly, this was a remarkably productive session. For one thing, I now know what to expect when the weapon's accuracy exceeds my own skills. Anything not in the big ragged hole is my fault. Here's what I was able to eke out at 25 yards, 50 rounds per target.

From left to right, vey pricey Eley semiauto match, Fiocchi subsonic, and Federal Champion "plinking" ammo. Ages ago, I read on some rimfire site that Champions give match-like accuracy at plinker prices. I guess they were right, and I'm glad I stocked up on 4K rounds in the pre-0bama days. I'm trimming the targets to 8-1/2x11 and putting them in a binder as reference material as I continue to test and tweak ammo with the Ruger. The Federal Champions are my first test subject, and I'll keep my limited amount of Eley Match as a control reference.

The rest of my visit to the EBR store involves strokes of fate. After I left the range, I run into my buddy, who is there to see if the Kimber SVT rifle, sitting there for years, was still there. He was told they sold it a half-hour before he got there. OUCH.

I missed a Colt Anaconda like that a month ago, but it had been in their used handgun case for three days.

Which is probably why my ears suddenly heard a faint whisper which must have come from my distant cousins back in the Old Country. "Riiiiick, look in the raaaack". Sure enough, while I was on the firing line, the guys in the store were putting out the first, and maybe only, stock of CZ rifles for the year. One in particular screamed to me, "buy me now, dummy!". After sharing our stories of lost opportunities, I just said, "wrap it up".

The picture does not do justice to the walnut on this CZ 455. I would classify it as "CZ fancy" as opposed to "super fancy" on my CZ 453. In fact, while they got one example of the entire CZ rimfire and centerfire line, this was the only one with fancy wood, although CZ uses a very good quality of walnut in all the appropriate models. CZ laminated beech? Meh.

More to this story as things develop. I've already jumped online and bought a Timney target trigger (CZ now only uses the cheapo generic trigger on all its models), and a milled steel triggerguard. In the few intervening years, someone has fired up their CNC machining center, and is cranking them out (at a healthy price). I ordered one each for the 452, 453, and 455. Only the 455 is in stock, so I should have it, and the trigger, soon.

Meanwhile, I have to look for some form of retro-look euro-scope. These lines are too classic for some high-tech contemporary optics. If I can't find one, this safe queen will be regal enough as is.

And the most fateful part of this story was that I missed out going to the range yesterday, as I had planned. I would have missed all of this if I went there yesterday. Today, it was like hitting the lottery bigtime. I thought about buying some lottery tickets, but realized I already had several months worth of good luck, and was not going to impose on fate, or St Barbara, patron of guns and gunsmiths, any more.

3,761 posted on 03/13/2012 1:17:13 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Afternoon Win Mag - nice targets, the 10-22 is a capable platform that can and as seen here will turn in some impressive results. Nicely done. Couple of clicks and she’ll be dead center.

The CZ is true old world excellence. ‘Seriesly’ nice rifle. The milled trigger guard should set it off. I guess there are claw foot mounts in your rifle’s future. Aesthics do count.


3,762 posted on 03/13/2012 12:30:49 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
The CZ is true old world excellence.

While I was looking over my CZ, the guy behind the counter was handling the matching CZ455 in 22WMR. He said, "just handling one of these takes you back instantly to an era where you'd say, 'I say, old chap, why don't we nick on down to South Africa and give those Boers a bit of what-for. Then we can do a spot of hunting. Scotland just gets more prosaic every year.'".

3,763 posted on 03/13/2012 1:40:06 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: osagebowman
And the most fateful part of this story was that I missed out going to the range yesterday, as I had planned. I would have missed all of this if I went there yesterday. Today, it was like hitting the lottery bigtime. I thought about buying some lottery tickets, but realized I already had several months worth of good luck, and was not going to impose on fate, or St Barbara, patron of guns and gunsmiths, any more.

I just remembered, there was even more to my adventures that day. I stopped off for a few grocery items at the local Meijer's, our regional version of Wallyworld, before going to the EBR store. When I swiped my debit card through the automated checkout, I was rewarded with several in-store coupons. Along with ho-hum coupons, there was one for $4 off the next shopping trip, and another for $4.50 off. Plus, someone left another set of the same coupons on top of the inkjet printer, probably as something not worth bothering about. So I get $17 off for shopping there before the end of April.

I thought that was a pleasant surprise. I guess I didn't realize what an omen of good fortune it was. The incident got lost in the rest of my tale until I used one of those coupons today.

3,764 posted on 03/14/2012 3:45:15 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Good show on the coupons - do they sell ammo? $17 bucks should be enough for a 500 plus box of Federal .22s. Can’t ever have too much ammo. mmm. Guess that reminds me to get an extra box or two.


3,765 posted on 03/15/2012 10:42:59 AM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
Good show on the coupons - do they sell ammo?

Like Wallyworld, Meijer stores in urban areas have a very small selection of common ammo. I avert my eyes when I go past their sporting goods department, I have a better selection and quantity of ammo in just one of my basement cabinets. Out in the countryside, they'll sell some common long guns, but no handguns.

Meanwhile, I put the new milled trigger guard on the CZ 453. Comparing the wood on the two, the 453 has much fancier grain in the butt area, but straighter, more sap-woody (but still impressive) walnut in the forend area. But the 455 has some crossgrain and fiddleback all the way to the muzzle.

Comparing the two, I now realize that the existing rear sight on the 455 will present me with a major problem. Unless I use ultra-high mounts, even a scope with a 33mm objective won't clear it. I can remove it, and fill in the holes with headless cap screws. Or I can try to find some kind of folding leaf sight (fat chance).

Or, I could use the official peep sight for the CA 452/453, except it seems unavailable anywhere in the western hemisphere. Or I might try a scope with no front bell, just like most of the old-time scopes. All I know is that, for now, I won't be able to do any real accuracy testing while that middle sight is just a fuzzy "V". But that cosmetic improvement to the CZ 453 just made my day.

3,766 posted on 03/16/2012 1:42:14 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

I see your problem, well, imho, a classic Weaver 2 1/2 or 3 power scope could alleviate some of the rear sight interference issues.

Perhaps a more modern 1-4.5 V scope might also work. I recall a swing low mount scope base set up that was pretty popular in its day. I think Pachmayr made it.

If you want a folding rear sight, the parts bins at the larger gun shows may have them, if not I bet Brownells would.

Whoa, that milled trigger guard looks Good, real Good. I do see the difference in the stocks, both classic in their own right. Good wood is hard to find, figured wood even harder.


3,767 posted on 03/16/2012 1:48:16 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
I see your problem, well, imho, a classic Weaver 2 1/2 or 3 power scope could alleviate some of the rear sight interference issues.

I started thinking about your advice, and then found the perfect surrogate for photographic purposes. It's an ancient Leupold 2x handgun scope with an eye relief that starts at about the buttplate on the rifle. Still, I think a fixed-power scope like this is definitely the way to go.

I finally realized that claw mounts went on large-caliber hunting rifles, where you might need to rip off failed optics instantly if dangerous game was hunting you. For a plinker, even in the old days, this setup would be not only acceptable, but pretty deluxe.

Now to work my sources for a quality scope at a good price. Leupold is my go-to brand, but something from Swarovski would fit in nicely with the Czech theme. And I can defer action on the rear sight until the perfect solution drops into my lap, like this rifle did.

Series range testing once I get the scope mounted. Series drooling will have to wait for the milled trigger guard.

3,768 posted on 03/16/2012 10:58:12 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Evening Win-Mag - say that does look appropriate and aestheticly pleasing.

One thing I had to consider when I was searching out a rimfire scope was the parallax issue. RImfires are parallax free at 50 yards, centerfire scopes at 100 yds (rule of thumb as there are exceptions) So the old Bushnell banner 3-9X I’ve had since the mid 60s wasn’t the best choice for my rimfire. Luckily I had another .22 scope (4X) from the same era that worked until I got a more suitable one (2-7X)years later. I tend not rush things. :-)


3,769 posted on 03/17/2012 3:34:19 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
I got the rest of the parts in for the Ruger 10/22, minus scope and mount. Mostly small stuff, like a semi-soft plastic rod to use as a bolt-stop/buffer, and a hex head screw to attach to action to the stock. The main items, and much appreciated, are a real Picatinny base to replace to stock Weaver, and a longer bolt handle with a super-slick guide rod for the bolt spring.

The new rail is thicker than the old, raising the scope even higher. The present mount is a GG&G QD mount for an AR15 flattop, and it now brings the scope up to the perfect height for a nice comfortable cheek weld for me. That B&C stock changed the entire aspect of the rifle from a bull-barrel plinker to something more businesslike.

I also modified a Butler Creek loader to work with Ruger factory mags. After I get the permanent scope and mount, I'll go back to the range for more ammo testing. Meanwhile, gunsmithing on my surprise CZ 455 is next on the list.

3,770 posted on 03/18/2012 3:16:01 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: osagebowman
Now that the CZ 453 has the neat milled trigger guard, I took it out for its first round of reference testing for ammo. This is 10 rounds at 25 yards (the shortest range at the EBR shoppe is 25 yards), with ordinary Federal Champion.

I pulled the target after the first four shots, and all were in one ragged hole. That must have jinked it, because the rest of the group was nowhere near that good. But I'm optimistic that the ammo, and my skills, will improve enough to do better with practice, practice, practice.

3,771 posted on 03/22/2012 1:33:51 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Morning Win-Mag : I’m all to familiar with target results like those you just experienced.

“all skill ist umsonst wenn ein Engel in der touchhole angepinkelt werden ihre muskete”

The milled trgger guard - looks great.


3,772 posted on 03/22/2012 7:01:36 AM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman; Squantos; g'nad; Ramius; TalonDJ
I’m all to familiar with target results like those you just experienced.

My battle against inaccuracy, both human and mechanical, has now taken a series turn. I just got in my "Paco Tool", and resized one box of Federal Champions to .222, .223, .224, and .225 inches. The tool itself is on the left, the rest of the stuff is user-supplied.

The round is inserted into the hole of the desired size, then set on a wood block. Take one of the nose punches (cupped, and two rather nasty-looking hollow points), and tap smartly on the other end. I made up 50 rounds of each size, along with an untouched box of ammo to use as a control.

Here's my first test, ten rounds of each size, plus the untouched control ammo. The "control" looks good (which is why I went with Federal Champion), but the .222-sized also looks good. The other sized bullets were more-or-less poor in the Ruger 10/22. Every weapon has a favorite brand, and a favorite size, measured in thousandths of an inch or less. And two rifles coming off the assembly line consecutively may prefer very different brands.

The untouched factory standard ammo seems to match the .222-sized very closely. Which is why I just bought a group-size gauge for my digital calipers. I've come to the point where my unaided eyeballs just aren't enough to give me the exact data I want. So now, for this rifle and this brand of ammo, I'll be firing a lot more rounds until I have enough data to get some averages and standard deviations to see how well the resized ammo does compared to the untouched stuff. Just for grins, I'll resize some mixed dog-and-cat ammo to see how it does. But the biggest effort will be to find "pet ammo" for each target-grade rifle and handgun. And try to clean up all the flyers I toss around so casually.

3,773 posted on 03/26/2012 12:43:49 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Awesome... I think you will like Paco Kelly’s tools. It’s base purpose is to turn cheap crap ammo into consistent fodder IMHO. It does a very good job for me.

For the record my 10-22 is fed CCI stingers an or mini-maags that get whacked with Pacos accurizer tool. Aaas you well know consistency is key an Paco helps get you there with all brands. From high dollar Ely to wolf economy ......

Those are nice groups pictured.

What is your range distance ? Indoors or out ? Wind ?

Just asking.... Stay safe an thjanks for the information.


3,774 posted on 03/26/2012 5:53:47 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Squantos
What is your range distance ? Indoors or out ? Wind ?

Indoors, at my local EBR store. They have a 25 and 50 yard range, so I do all the shooting at 25 yards so I can use either one. I'm working on a chair-and-sandbag setup to eliminate more of my personal influence on the groups.

Aside from eventually tuning up my cheap ammo, I want to see what's needed for each individual .22 likes in the "good stuff", and how much better even the high(er) end ammo works.

I suspect I'll find a combination that works as well as "the high-priced brand" for my level of skill, and a much more reasonable price.

Getting the group measuring jaws for my caliper means I can put all my results in a spreadsheet, rather than trimming down targets to fit in a ring binder for future reference.

3,775 posted on 03/26/2012 9:28:15 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

...agree.... Where ya get those “jaws” ?? Sinclair or Creedmor etc ... ?


3,776 posted on 03/26/2012 9:46:30 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Squantos
Where ya get those “jaws” ?? Sinclair or Creedmor etc ... ?

Sinclair is my first choice for precision stuff, although I also check Midway and even Amazon for the more common items, in hope of catching a deal.

3,777 posted on 03/26/2012 10:33:41 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Gonna go peek at a few versions...... you have time to give me the model and brand etc ... I’m gonna surf Sinclair etc ...

Thanks !


3,778 posted on 03/26/2012 11:25:55 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: 300winmag

Found it...thanks !

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=group%20caliper/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=group%20caliper


3,779 posted on 03/26/2012 11:33:19 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: 300winmag

Morning Win-Mag; great posts re Paco Tool, the Ruger and the caliper attachment. The unsized ammo group is a nice control size. Your efforts regarding bullet sizings?tool use are fascinating. The data collected should help you in your search for just the right bullet for that gun. Standard deviations, confidence intervals, median, mean, mode - all way cool. Congrats.


3,780 posted on 03/27/2012 7:50:26 AM PDT by osagebowman
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To: 300winmag
I'd be particularly interested in your data on which ammo works best out of the box and your opinions on

—would your data from your 10/22 be approximately the same for all 10/22s, or do the characteristics of an individual rifle have an effect?

—would accuracy data from 10/22s translate across well-made .22s in general, or do such details as a longer barrel or different firing mechanism matter?

I have one operable .22 (the other one was my grandfather's and Dad taught me to shoot with it when I was 8, but it's not functioning and hasn't done since 1979), a cheap little Cooey that I rescued, painted, from a pawnshop in 1989 and repaired the finish; I have never tested it for group size on a range, but can reliably hit a pop can “a ways away” :)

3,781 posted on 03/31/2012 9:17:01 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (Islam: a transnational fascist government that demands worship.)
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To: ExGeeEye
I'd be particularly interested in your data on which ammo works best out of the box and your opinions on....

The answer is, yes. :)

Seriesly, everything you mentioned has an influence, including shooter skills. There are plenty more variables involved, too. The trick is to start with some arbitrarily-fixed reference points, and then figure out ways to test some variable to see how much of an influence it has on overall accuracy. In most cases, the single biggest detriment to accuracy is the shooter himself.

In my case, I'm using my Ruger 10/22 target model because it has proven itself accurate enough to overlook any remaining flaws that still might reside in it. I'm starting with Federal Champion ammo because it's relatively cheap, highly rated by other .22 shooters, and I've seen its inherent accuracy in a number of my own weapons.

Now I'm working with gauges and gadgets to see what my rifle likes best about that particular brand. Tune in tonight for more details on progress so far. And the one thing that goes without saying, that I must say, is that everything can vary from gun to gun, brand to brand, round to round. But good data can help reduce those variables to below the statistical background noise.

3,782 posted on 03/31/2012 11:18:28 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: Ramius; g'nad; osagebowman; Lost Dutchman; Squantos; Corin Stormhands; JenB; TalonDJ; ExGeeEye; ...
Tonight's Saturday Night Gun Pron, which happens to be published on April Fool's Day, is a look at more gadgets used in my search to find the "pet load" for each of my .22 rifles and handguns. Of course, once I finish that daunting task, I'll have no more excuses for bad shooting, except myself.

After shooting a nice group, you need a way to measure it precisely. Then the size can be entered into a spreadsheet for later analysis, and the paper targets thrown away. Unless I shoot a once-in-a-lifetime group, and then I'll have it framed.

The first gadget is a .22 rim thickness gauge from Brownells. It's a simple, but highly precise, gauge that attaches to the jaws of a caliper, and measures the thickness of the rim.

I couldn't figure out why it included a neck lanyard until I started using it, and then realized I would not want to drop an $80 gauge and a $200 set of mid-grade Mitotoyu calibers on the floor.

So far, while checking 50 rounds of ammo, I've found that there are four different rim thicknesses present, but all vary less that .0001" from the most-common .0420" thickness. I won't know without testing, but I suspect that rim thickness may not have a noticeable affect on accuracy with this ammunition, and this Ruger.

After the rounds are shot, the groups need precise measurement. Enter another Brownells gauge, which are now permanently attached to my dad's 40-year-old first-generation Mitotoyu digital calipers. They aren't as consistent to the fourth decimal place, so I figured it was easier to just leave the jaws on full time.

Measure the two holes furthest apart, and there's your answer. This particular gauge can also measure 6mm and .30 caliber targets. The data goes into a spreadsheet, and the target can then go into the trash.

I've been spending the weekend making different variations of test ammo for a quick look-see. Starting with .222-sized Federal, I'll see how much that tiny variation in rim thickness matters. I'll also test two boxes of pre-1973 (no bar codes on the boxes) Sears generic ammo. Fifty rounds sized to .222", the other untouched. I have to remember to check the rim thickness for grins, and see how it compares with the Federal.

Pretty soon I'll have the best "pet load" for the Ruger identified. Then I'll start working on the subsonic brands, and see how much things can be improved. A whole lot of work will already be saved because it already appears that the Ruger prefers its ammo sized to .222". If that holds true, all I'll have to do is check rim thickness, and see how much of a role it plays with other brands. With that much data in hand, I should be able to characterize the best fodder for each CZ rifle, and for some of the handguns, too.

Right now, a lot of people are probably rolling their eyes over something so picky. You ain't seen "picky" until you get into benchrest shooting. I like blasting cheap ammo as well as anyone else, but I also enjoy the challenge of using my skill and resources to wring the best accuracy I can with my weapons I know are proven performers.

3,783 posted on 04/01/2012 1:03:35 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Picky ?

I am very picky an will pursue perfection till I pass from this life. No accusations from me friend. I’m not a bench rest shooter yet I live in the panhandle of Texas where a normal shot on a varmit is 800 plus yards with mirage an wind so bad its enough to frustrate the best of shooters.

My truck gun is a .338 lapua mag with a leupold mk4 16X . A no contour shilen bull barrel with. Harris bipod an a McMillan stock. 11 degree recessed crown an badger mounts on the Remington 700 action. Canjar set trigger completes my rig I was “picky” about.

Then an only then do I get to my selection of components for rolling my own fodder to feed that rifle. I would think over the years I have paid lots of coin to Sinclair, Brownells, Midway and Creedmore.

I’m very picky in all my endeavors from dinner to dwellings to what I drive.

My work involves precision measurement an exotic materials. A lack of attention to detail can be deadly.

Picky is a way of life per se..... :o)

If anything I own can be improved with a little extra effort I will do so.

Stay safe, hope yer well !


3,784 posted on 04/01/2012 7:27:29 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Squantos
I am very picky an will pursue perfection till I pass from this life. No accusations from me friend.

I've got no problems with that, although I'd call myself a "practical perfectionist". In my working life, I've found that 90% of a job takes just 10% of the time. It's up to my boss to decide if perfection is needed, and it usually isn't.

At home, for myself, family, and a few friends, I will spend endless time to get a computer or weapon as perfect as I can make it. They all say, "that's amazing, why don't you do that for a living?" Of course, nobody is willing to pay $80 an hour (the going rate for just about any kind of custom one-on-one labor) when they have no idea what I actually did, or why it took so long to do it.

I still get a chuckle reading the Ruger Mark x sites with everyone moaning about how it's impossible to get it to function reliably with low power/subsonic ammo. Heck, the first time out of the box, I had 100% failure-to-feed with RWS subsonic ammo. $200 of Volquartsen parts, a bunch of Nanolube, and two weeks of studying sources of drag and friction gave me a handgun that now functions reliably with every kind of creampuff .22 ammo I can find.

It's not rocket science, it's experience, study and analysis, and a willingness to bust your ass to get the job done. OTOH, maybe that is the definition of rocket science. :)

Meanwhile, a final photo from last week, where I finally took my CZ 452 in .17HM2 to the range for first tests with the Timney trigger, and mounting the scope on the CZ 455. These are tough rifles to photograph, because it is so hard to show how gorgeous the wood really is.


3,785 posted on 04/01/2012 2:30:27 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Agree agree agree..... on the photos, have you considered changing you background to blue for the weapons shots. I know the targets are your current background but I am told that blue brings out firearms , especially those with great furniture, much better..... maybe a test !....:o)

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HbVQUq73pFA/TXZkCQ4YnnI/AAAAAAAAAeA/ceEPIgkBx8w/DSCN1572.JPG

Stay safe !


3,786 posted on 04/01/2012 3:15:01 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Squantos

I’ve got some light blue foam packaging sheets. I’ll give it a try right away. Thanks.


3,787 posted on 04/01/2012 3:59:07 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: ExGeeEye

Evening ExGeeEye - well, an inoperable rifle is an opportunity imho. Check out rimfirecentral.com and you’ll find kindred spirits that truly enjoy resurrecting old .22s the clutches of disrepair. Regardless of the make, model and condition, someone on there has either the parts or the know-how to make the rifle run again, and occasionally you’ll find some withone with both. Good Luck in your quest.

RE: rimfire ammo, I’ll echo Win-Mag’s observation: try different brands at a known distance, from a stable rest or position and record the results. Sometimes you luck out and get appropriate, note: appropriate is what you decide it is, results. A peep sight helps, a scope even more if you have a rifle with a grooved receiver. Again - good shooting.


3,788 posted on 04/01/2012 4:14:44 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: 300winmag

Evening Win-Mag - good shooting; the ruger project is coming along nicely. I recall seeing some steel blocks with holes drilled in them at a gunshow, the fella used them to as drop in quick test for rim thickness. He had done a similar test to yours and he found which rim thicknesses went with his rifle and his pistol, each hole was marked as such, the no-gos were saved for his grandson.

Some serious ‘chunk gun’ BP shooters weigh, caliper and check each roundball for concentricity. Premeasured powder charges etc. are also favored. The bench rest shooters go several steps further to ensure uniformity from shot to shot.

Although I tend to favor the “five dollar trigger job” school of gun repair, I thoroughly enjoy your posts. Shooting out the center of the 10 ring certainly is satisfying.

PS the bic click pen spring ‘3 buck trigger job’ reduced the pull on my old Marlin .22 bolt action from somewhere north of 10 pounds to a satisfying 3 or so pounds.

OB


3,789 posted on 04/01/2012 4:31:26 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: Squantos
I took your advice, and see some positive results. Unfortunately, there was only one blue object I could find that would fit. Here's the CZ 452:

And the CZ 455:

It's still not as good as seeing it in real life, but that blue seems to fake out the camera enough for more to show through.

I'll be looking for some appropriate blue background, and use some high-quality wax to cut down the glare from overhead lights. A thin coat just to kill the shine, then buff it back up when done.

I've worked with slave strobes, diffusers, indirect lighting, etc. in some of my previous jobs. I'm not into all that happy horsesh1t now, I just want good pictures with the least fuss. It's not like I'm being paid for something that will go on the cover of some glossy magazine.

Oh, and a professional photographer once told me the hardest thing in the world to photograph properly is ice cream. :)

3,790 posted on 04/01/2012 8:51:27 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: osagebowman; Squantos
Busy week, this week. However, did some quick-and-dirty ammo tests, and learned a lot, all of it unexpected. I shot everything on one target, left at the (approximate) 25 yard line so I wouldn't have to pull the target back and forth, and have ranges vary by a few feet each time.

It turns out my 10/22 is a very picky eater, at least with Federal Champion ammunition. But give it what it wants, and it can perform vey well.

It seems to like the .0415" rim thickness much better than the others.

Unfortunately, that's the least-common size I've encountered in my first few hundred rounds of checking. But some other rifle might favor one of the other flavors. I'll do some quick checking with the CZ 453 and 455 soon. Now that I have a supply of sized-and-sorted ammo, things can move faster.

Testing with other combinations, including dog-and-cat mixed old ammo, left me with lots of contrary results.

Aside from learning how rewarding it is to feed my finicky Ruger its favorite snack, I've come to the conclusion that so many variables are involved in firing a round that some will cancel out the others, randomly. Since every individual variable probably presents itself as a bell-curve distribution of arbitrary x-and-y dimensions, stack a dozen or so on top of each other, and you get a roughly "round" group with lots of what I thought were my flyers thrown in. Cut down on some of the variables, and a simpler pattern begins to appear, or at least be hinted at.

For the Ruger, sized-and-sorted Champion ammo seems to string itself out in a roughly horizontal group. I suspect it may have some relationship to something mechanical going on inside the rifle. I suspect a bolt action rifle like the CZ will work best with anything that is as consistent as possible. We'll see.

And I ordered a brick of Federal Champion Match, which I will test against my home-rolled ammo. Since I've run across four different rim dimensions in the stock ammo, I suspect they have four different machines to make the cases. They may use only brass from their "best" machine, and test more regularly for consistency in the match ammo.

As with science, each answer brings up two newer-but-subtler questions. But with a dependable standard rifle and ammo combination, these new questions should be quicker and easier to answer.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find when I build, modify, tweak, or study something, my subconscious more readily accepts that device as an extension of myself, and I have a more instinctual feel for how to use it, with a lot less work on my part.

3,791 posted on 04/04/2012 3:50:22 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Evening Win-Mag - Well, been to therange and a couple of lgs; one, I got to fondle a new Ruger 10-22 take-down. He got two in, one left on the rack. Ergo, full retail, sigh. Came with a nice carrying case with space for an extra bbl. Speculation running rampant that Ruger will offer a bull-barrel version. The outside pocket on case sized for a pair of 25 round mags. I couldn’t tell if the case was sized for scope to remain on the receiver in breakdown mode. One would think so but...The other point was there were no studs for mounting a sling, I know we can add studs but one would think, wouldn’t one?

In other newz, no used glocks, sigs in either store, just new ones. Revolvers were in fair supply, and ammo shelves had been depleted, hmmmm. Some models of rifles and shot guns limited selection. Supplies, powder, primers in good supply, no run up (yet).

Federal Champion .22s in short supply round here. I did see one brick at the lgs/range.

Range-trip successful, paper was punched, brass was collected, all highways safely traveled.


3,792 posted on 04/07/2012 7:24:43 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
Range-trip successful, paper was punched, brass was collected, all highways safely traveled.

Glad to hear about your trigger time. Shame about that 10/22 takedown. I haven't even seen one yet, but I suspect extra barrels will come threaded for use with "muzzle accessories", as Ruger calls them. Considering their production capacity is already booked for the rest of the year, I might just grab the first 10/22 TD I see. I'm glad I did that to all three Rugers I bought (so far) this year. These models seem to trickle in slowly, if at all. Often, it's just the one in the rack that's left.

I got some Federal Champions from Midway, where currently they're on sale. I think I paid $1.89 a box, which is a steal for what is basically match-grade ammo. Midway's ordering page was a bit confusing. I wanted a brick, it said "$1.89 per box", so I put in the number "10". Then the other day this hugh box arrives from them, and inside were ten bricks of Champion for a total of $189 plus shipping. I missed the part on the page that said "sold in packages of 10 boxes".

This worked out better than I expected, because I now have about 14K rounds of just that one brand of ammo, with a very good expectation that I will find the perfect formula for each .22 I try it with. I suspect the CZs will be much less fussy than the 10/22, but I have a "sample pack" of one box of everything, just so I can follow where the results are pointing.

I'm also starting to test the Ely Rifle Match against the Champions. Right now, rather than resize them, I just segregated the ammo by rim thickness. I noticed better consistency in the Ely, with only two about-equal distributions of rim thickness, both .0005" apart. The Champion fell into four groups, with varying percentages, but again each group varying only .0005" from the next. The uncertainty of my measurements (me and my calipers) makes the fifth position to the right of the decimal dicey.

Until I do more testing, I only have hunches. I suspect the Ruger is vey finicky about what it likes, with .222" diameter bullets and the thinnest rim dimensions the best. The CZs, I can only guess that they will be happy with one particular bullet size, but that's only SWAG at this point.

Aaaaannnddd, I was able to sort the rim thickness of my Ely .17HM2 ammo into four about equal groups. Can't resize the bullets, but I can see how well the CZ 452 does with different rim size, especially since I now have the Timney trigger on it.

I could never afford to do this kind of research with centerfire ammo, especially match-grade ammunition. I've decided I need a thousand rounds of a particular brand of dimensional/weapon combinations to find the best, and still have about a brick left over for "productive" shooting. That means I'll have to double my inventory of subsonic test ammo. When I see things on sale.

3,793 posted on 04/07/2012 8:40:19 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: Ramius; g'nad; osagebowman; Lost Dutchman; Squantos; Corin Stormhands; JenB; TalonDJ; ExGeeEye; ...
Tonight's Saturday Night Gun Pron takes a break from .22s to look at a new product for "America's Rifle", the M-faux carbine. It's another replacement for the regular GI pistol grip (the most user-unfriendly item on the rifle, IMHO), but with some fresh thinking behind it.

Bravo Company Mfg has come out with a pistol grip that has less of an angle than the original 1959-version AR15 grip, which has been more-or-less been standard with aftermarket stuff ever since. However, the company points out that shooting styles and combat tactics have changed in those 50+ years. Tactics, optics, and body armor have brought a more square-to-the-target stance, rather than the "blade stance" of presenting your left side to the target (if you're right handed), with the weapon pressed against your chest, and your right elbow stick out like a chicken wing. That stance works best with a more acute angle of the pistol grip to the barrel axis. But today's shooting style with this type of carbine works best, and is most comfortable, with a more vertical grip angle. At least that's what BCM says, and after buying one of their grips, they may have a valid idea. The picture below shows the original AR15/M-16A2 grip, my still-beloved Magpul, the new BCM grip, and a Sig 556 grip, just for comparison.

The Magpul has about the same angle, but is vastly better for me because of its slightly-arched backstrap, and more hand-filling cross section. Eugene Stoner obviously never studied ergonomics, and the GI grip, with its smaller cross section and straight backstrap can shoot a bolt of pain through my arm when my carpal tunnel is acting up.

The BCM grip, second to the end, is noticeably more vertical. Otherwise, it has the same benefits as the Magpul, including a longer grip length, which allows for more room to find the right spot to grasp it, or a slight change of grip to allow some muscle relief. The BCM has a shorter front-to-rear length, but a wider body. This may be helpful to more people with varying hand sizes, but I have no way of telling, as of now.

All I can say is that it feels different, and looks vey different on the rifle. I guess I may have grown so used to the one-unchanging-angle that this new grip seems so out of place. It feels good, but different.

So here it is on my gas-piston rifle, which has become my M-faux "guinea pig", having that new buffer tube, and a Magpul mid-length handguard that sort of reminds me of the FN FAL. Of course, the original FAL had a pistol grip that was even more angled than the one on the AR15, so while it looked sexy and space-agey (we are no longer in the space age), might not have worked the best, at least for me.

I find the Magpul MOE handguard to be comfy for me, without the need for an angled grip, although one could be added. The added Magpul front sling loop is unobtrusive and silent, and works well with Magpul's MS3 sling (not shown here). The Magpul MOE or MIAD (more deluxe, configurable pistol grip) both work well for me, so I'm eager to see how the BCM works. I expect the results to be approximately equal, but if the new grip proves far superior, I see future upgrades to my rifles that use that type of pistol grip. Only extended range time and handling will tell for sure. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it. :)

3,794 posted on 04/08/2012 12:47:11 AM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag

Evening WinMag and Happy Easter - say, that last shipment should keep you supplied for the upcoming testing jamboree. Midway has some good prices but the combination of sales tax and shipping leaves me looking at other suppliers or usually a local source.


3,795 posted on 04/08/2012 8:15:28 PM PDT by osagebowman
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To: osagebowman
Midway has some good prices but the combination of sales tax and shipping leaves me looking at other suppliers or usually a local source.

Happy Easter to everyone here, lurkers and regulars.

I usually don't buy ammo from Midway, unless it's either a hugh sale, or something that's hard to find elsewhere. No sales tax for me, but I figure the more I buy, the less the shipping costs per round. It's no big deal for me to buy a brick of .22s locally, but I still get weird looks, even from my regular EBR store, when I ask for a thousand rounds of .357Sig. Ammoman.com to the rescue, although I had to wait a year for them to get 30-06 ammo back in stock. They still have absolutely no .22lr in stock, except for German blanks.

3,796 posted on 04/08/2012 10:31:21 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: 300winmag; osagebowman

Happy Easter to you, as well as the other regular Hobbit Hole folks!


3,797 posted on 04/09/2012 7:31:38 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Ramius

Thought about you earlier this week while watching a series on TV about the Coast Guard in Alaska!


3,798 posted on 04/09/2012 7:37:25 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ

I’ve watched those... They’re great! They do a nice job of showing what the job is all about. Of course they show lots more of the rotor heads than the rest of us... But still... They did a good job of it. That was my old stomping grounds. It’s a nasty place to do that sort of work, but it’s the most gorgeous place in the world, too. :-)


3,799 posted on 04/09/2012 7:53:43 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: SuziQ

I’ve watched those... They’re great! They do a nice job of showing what the job is all about. Of course they show lots more of the rotor heads than the rest of us... But still... They did a good job of it. That was my old stomping grounds. It’s a nasty place to do that sort of work, but it’s the most gorgeous place in the world, too. :-)


3,800 posted on 04/09/2012 7:53:43 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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