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Question -- constitutional meaning of "natural born."
Vanity | 4/9/11 | Publius

Posted on 04/09/2011 6:35:30 PM PDT by publius1

Question- constitution speaks to presidential requirement ob bring a "natural born" citizen: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."

Is "natural born" the same as "native born"???


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: birth; certifigate; constitution; obama; palin; trump
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1 posted on 04/09/2011 6:35:34 PM PDT by publius1
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To: publius1

Not defined by the Constitution or the US Code, awaiting case law, don’t hold your breath.


2 posted on 04/09/2011 6:37:38 PM PDT by Jim Noble (The Constitution is overthrown. The Revolution is betrayed.)
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To: publius1; All


Help FR Fight Marxist Fiction
By Donating To FR Here!!

3 posted on 04/09/2011 6:38:21 PM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: publius1

constitution speaks to presidential requirement ob bring a “natural born” citizen = “ob bring” is “of being.”. iPad spell Check attacks again!!!


4 posted on 04/09/2011 6:39:42 PM PDT by publius1 (Just to be clear: my position is no.)
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To: publius1

Born in the United States to parents both in this Country legally, lawfully, and citizens of.


5 posted on 04/09/2011 6:39:43 PM PDT by ransacked
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To: publius1

Natural born: congenital or native i.e. “natural born fool.”


6 posted on 04/09/2011 6:41:36 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (You is what you am.)
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To: publius1

So if you have a C-Section, you’re out?


7 posted on 04/09/2011 6:43:57 PM PDT by umgud
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To: publius1

Not the same. It was established years ago on this forum, when Donald Trump was praising Obama for being such a political success.


8 posted on 04/09/2011 6:44:23 PM PDT by reasonisfaith (Sarah Palin is above taking the fake high road.)
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To: publius1

Depends what time frame you are talking about. The supreme courts have dumbed down the definition over the last 200+ years. By most recent interpretation, if obama was born in hawaii, he is natural born. By the interpretation in use at the time of obama’s birth, he would not have qualified as a natural born citizen even if he was born in hawaii.


9 posted on 04/09/2011 6:45:31 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: publius1
Is "natural born" the same as "native born"???

Neither of those terms is defined by the Constitution or the law. Perhaps someday Congress will attempt it.

10 posted on 04/09/2011 6:47:24 PM PDT by iowamark
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To: ransacked; publius1

ransacked is staking out the position that the Founders’ notion of “natural born citizen” was that of the Swiss jurist Vattel. The contrary position holds that the Founders’ notion of “natural born citizen” corresponded to the British notion of “natural born subject”, which would be the same as native born (cf. Blackstone).

Without a case law ruling on the meaning from a court, which position holds is a matter of debate. It is one of the outrageous things about the courts avoiding the Obama eligibility question that we do not have a clear interpretation of the phrase. If it is read according to Vattel’s notion, then the birth certificate is an irrelevancy (unless it’s being hidden because Barack Obama, Sr. was not the father, but some, embarrassing U.S. citizen like the Communist Frank Marshall Davis, in which case showing that he lied in his “auto”biography and was born in Hawaii would prove Obama’s eligibility). If read according to British custom as explained by Blackstone, the location of Obama’s birth matters.


11 posted on 04/09/2011 6:47:25 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: umgud

“So if you have a C-Section, you’re out?”

Of course not.


12 posted on 04/09/2011 6:48:21 PM PDT by Christian Engineer Mass (25ish Cambridge MA grad student. Many conservative Christians my age out there? __ Click my name)
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To: publius1
iPad spell Check attacks again!!

the one on the iPhone is a hoot, too.

13 posted on 04/09/2011 6:48:40 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (You is what you am.)
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To: mamelukesabre

Would it be fair to say that when the Constitution was written, a natural born citizen would be one who was never wholly or partially a citizen of any other country? Seems pretty clear that Barack would fail that test.


14 posted on 04/09/2011 6:51:59 PM PDT by supercat (Barry Soetoro == Bravo Sierra)
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To: publius1

Whatever Obama is, isn’t.


15 posted on 04/09/2011 6:52:49 PM PDT by Always Right
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To: publius1

Here is a link with good information. http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/08/law-of-nations-and-not-english-common.html

In short, a natural born citizen is one born in a country to parents (notice the ‘s’, as in two citizen parents) who are citizens of the same country. So NO, Obama is not a “natural born citizen”.

The problem is that the vetting process for presidential candidates is basically non-existant. People just assume there is a through review, but there is not.


16 posted on 04/09/2011 6:53:37 PM PDT by ScubieNuc
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To: publius1
See posts by Elle Bee, Spaulding, others; search for keyword naturalborncitizen.

Copy of a post of mine follows:

Hence, the Chester Arthur example is not and cannot be treated as any precedent since the nation was not aware of the truth about his father’s and mother’s non-U.S. citizenship status at the time of his birth.

Interesting, since it appears that the question of applicability of precedent would become the focus when the Natural-born issue is finally acknowledged for a week in the media, and I believe at some point it will be. From a practical standpoint, if this issue makes reelection probabilities dire enough, centrist Dems would attempt to primary nobama out, which would perhaps be the smartest thing for them to do, as the D party could move to the center and the R would have to move more solidly to the right. Except who would the D's select (besides the thoroughly worn-out clintonistas) ? Well, whatever, my real points for comment follow.

Well, I found a reference to a SCOTUS case from 1874 that referred to "natural-born". The link to Justia.com follows the relevant snippet from this women's suffrage case, "MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U. S. 162 (1874)",

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts."

The text I cite above appears to be quite telling in the logic of the actors of today.

If this ruling were the latest precedential ruling, it would make sense then, that the man elected in 2008 and his true backers, whoever they may be, are exerting such tremendous effort to establish the newly-minted State of Hawaii as his birthplace. That birthplace enables him to claim "natural-born" based on being in the second classification of children in the cited reference, those born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. Absent that birthplace fact, he would fail the meaning of "natural-born" cited within this opinion on both counts, as the father he claims is acknowledged to not be a U.S. citizen.

Please comment; I very much look forward to more case research and opinions regarding the precedents of this case. Please keep them research-oriented; are there any legal scholars or "lay" people out there who can do some digging ?

If this holds water, then perhaps this is the case that needs to be presented, "Occam" style.

I am not sure of Mr. Trump's true aims, so I try to write in an unbiased tone regarding his efforts which, so far, appear to have certain commonality with most Americans, however I caution that his overall vision may be less than ideal, as indicated by some simplistic protectionist bandages that he has advocated. In his defense, I would like to remind that the amount of his assets affected by slumping Real Estate may be motivating his desire to see the nation restored.
17 posted on 04/09/2011 6:54:07 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (Huguenot)
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To: mamelukesabre

obama admitted in 2004 during his debate with Keyes that he was not a natural Born Citizen, but somehow he now is a Natural Born citizen. so it’s VERY recent history that the meaning of “natural born” has become confused. Perhaps it more based on the fact that obama is black that he is allowed to call himself a natural born citizen.

At the time obama was elected to the Senate he was proclaimed as the first African born American to be elected to the Senate. Stange how it appears that he was born in two different countries at the same time!!!!


18 posted on 04/09/2011 6:55:20 PM PDT by omegadawn (qualified)
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To: publius1

It’s not defined, but we have to remember that the Founders were writing not only to set up the laws for the future, but to handle their own situations, since obviously the country didn’t even exist at the time of their births. Hence the specification that persons had to be citizens at the time of adoption of the new Constitution, and also the residence requirement of 14 years.

Personally, I think they probably just meant “born here;” “natural” is used in that sense in other languages, such as Spanish. Natural and native are actually both descended from the Latin word nasci, meaning to be born, and I think people are creating an artificial distinction when they try to oppose them.


19 posted on 04/09/2011 6:55:22 PM PDT by livius
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To: umgud
So if you have a C-Section, you’re out?

In such a case an appropriate determination will be made by a panel of celebrity judges which will account for 50% of the determination and the other 50% will be determined by international text message voting.

20 posted on 04/09/2011 6:56:03 PM PDT by Tucsonican
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To: publius1
References:
21 posted on 04/09/2011 6:56:22 PM PDT by sourcery (If true=false, then there would be no constraints on what is possible. Hence, the world exists.)
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To: Jim Noble

So you don’t think John Marshall and Story and St. George Tucker, among others, carry any weight?


22 posted on 04/09/2011 6:58:58 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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To: publius1
Common sense shows that our Nation, the greatest country on the planet, would NOT want someone in charge who at a minimum has a dual-allegiance. In other words, when Barry was a young boy in school, he was conversing in a non-English language about Indonesia and the Muslim faith which his adoptive father practiced. He wasn't learning about the 50 states as a normal kid in would learn. He grew up having an allegiance, a tugging of his heart for Indonesia and Islam. Not that he doesn't care about the United States, it's just that the USA isn't his only allegiance.

Because our Founder didn't want someone to gain control over our great young nation, they insisted that anyone who was President must be natural born. They can never, at any time hold any type of allegiance to another country as it would result in them not putting our nation's best interest at heart. The President orders men and women into military action. If they have a slight leaning to another country, they would be more likely to disregard our Nation's best interest in every arena.

Barry is not eligible for the office for SEVERAL reasons. FRAUD at the very least being Number 1. Dual Citizenship being Number 2. Not being Natural Born.... trumps all other reasons. It's obvious he doesn't love our country. In fact he HATES most Natural Born Americans. And he's jealous of us.

23 posted on 04/09/2011 7:03:21 PM PDT by train
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To: publius1
!926 Bouvier's Law Dictionary Photobucket
24 posted on 04/09/2011 7:05:46 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: publius1

I’m not an attorney, but I’m willing to bet you a burger that an extensive written answer to that very question has been required from many a Law Student since the Constitution was written....


25 posted on 04/09/2011 7:10:58 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Stout Hearts!!)
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To: publius1

The word natural comes from Kind and Gecynde. Kind and natural have the same meaning.

When the Founders used the term natural born citizen they placed this type of citizen into a Kind.

Kind comes from the old Anglo Saxon word gecynde.

It is my contention natural born Citizens are the descendants created after the ratification.

It has to be determined if the 14th Amendment can alter the Kind or natural born citizen.

Here is a list of books in my google library explaining Kind and Natural

http://books.google.com/books?uid=-8156330887158583004&hl=en&q=Kind++natural+gecynde


26 posted on 04/09/2011 7:16:03 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: PieterCasparzen

If Trump has evidence that Barry committed fraud... Barry needs to voluntarily surrender his position as he is not eligible.

Example: If Barry filed for Selective Service FRAUDULENTLY, he would be ineligible.

Example: If his real name is Barry and he FRAUDULENTLY LIED on his IL Bar Application, Barry is ineligible.

There are several, SEVERAL fronts for which Barry is INELIGIBLE. And if/when Trump produces the evidence..... Barry should just voluntarily step down to SPEND MORE TIME WITH HIS FAMILY.


27 posted on 04/09/2011 7:18:27 PM PDT by train
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To: Bean Counter

Perhaps pre-1932. Since then, I fear Constitutional Law classes have only taught how to subvert the constitution and get away with as much as possible while completely ignoring it.


28 posted on 04/09/2011 7:21:16 PM PDT by ProtectOurFreedom (lee lexico desozibed)
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To: omegadawn

No, not very recent. Probably 40 years ago is when the interpretation changed.


29 posted on 04/09/2011 7:22:08 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: rxsid; LucyT; BP2
Input needed to clarify NBC here.
30 posted on 04/09/2011 7:24:15 PM PDT by hoosiermama (ONLY DEAD FISH GO WITH THE FLOW.......I am swimming with Sarahcudah! Sarah has read the tealeaves.)
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To: publius1

there is a letter by ben franklin..I posted several months ago in a NBC thread..not sure where it is..

He discusses Kind and Natural citizens are for the United States. Once the letter is read you will have a better understanding the meaning of natural born citizen as intended by the Founders.

I will try to look for it...and post it here..


31 posted on 04/09/2011 7:31:16 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: bushpilot1
Can someone photoshop Barry in the Nixon resignation pic? Valerie needs to count her blessing and cut and run. The charade is over. You know and we know he's on his last legs. And quit while you're ahead. Please don't wait until they start investigating the Chicago rumors....
32 posted on 04/09/2011 7:33:22 PM PDT by train
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To: train
Please don't wait until they start investigating the Chicago rumors....

What are the Chicago rumors?

33 posted on 04/09/2011 7:34:53 PM PDT by jersey117
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To: publius1


34 posted on 04/09/2011 7:36:18 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: bushpilot1

So is the *parent*, father in this case, the husband (BHO Sr.) of the mother (Stanley Ann) or the sperm donor (FMD)?


35 posted on 04/09/2011 7:40:31 PM PDT by Poincare
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To: jersey117
not sure, what have you heard about barry while he lived in chicago? any drug use, any affairs? any applying for the IL Bar exam under the name of Barack H Obama and when asked have you gone by any other names, the answer was NO ??? The reason a Law application asks if a applicant has any other names is so that they can research those names. If a person doesn't provide a known name, they are committing FRAUD.

He answered NO other names on his IL BAR Application which isn't true. It didn't allow the Bar Association to fully investigate his application because he refused to provide accurate information.

36 posted on 04/09/2011 7:45:42 PM PDT by train
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To: train
this is the image in question... this needs a barry photoshop

Valerie should allow Barry to voluntary resign soon. The charade is up... The longer they prolong it, the more embarrassing it will be. He will not be able to campaign like before. He's already embarrassed about his past. He needs to resign just like Nixon before he's outed by the Iranians. Everyone knows Barry..... just let it go..... Bow out gracefully, you do not have until 2012.... too much evidence showing Fraud.

37 posted on 04/09/2011 7:53:15 PM PDT by train
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To: publius1

here is part of the Ben Franklin letter....

Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind

an excerpt:

24. Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small.

All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so.

And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased.

And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red?

But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.


38 posted on 04/09/2011 7:56:01 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: PieterCasparzen
These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first.

Actually, there are three issues to decide if Obama is natural-born.

1. Is birth in America without relation to parentage enough by itself to determine NBC status? If this is the case, natural-born would be just another term for native-born or citizen at birth.

2. Is parentage relevant? Must a natural-born citizen be born to citizen parents?

3. If so, does NBC status require both parents to be American citizens, or only one? And does the gender of the American parent matter? It would have at the time of the Founding, but I suspect nobody would stand today for citizenship being tied to the sex of the American parent.

And then there is the whole issue of how the 14th Amendment changed, if it did, the meaning of the term.

Personally, I'm going with #1 above until the Supremes rule on the case.

39 posted on 04/09/2011 8:03:23 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Poincare

In all states, AFAIK, the legal father of the child is the mother’s husband. Even if it’s not possible for him to be the biological father. Even if DNA evidence proves he isn’t.

The law doesn’t care. Trying to “prove” Obama isn’t the biological offspring of Obama Sr. is legally quite irrelevant.


40 posted on 04/09/2011 8:07:52 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: publius1
I checked the Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States by Justice Joseph Story, published in 1859. In a brief discussion of the "natural born" qualification, which he seems to see as a fairly self-evident consideration, he uses the phrase "native citizen."

I know that doesn't answer the question, maybe muddles it more, but at least it goes back to the Founders, whom Story knew (he was appointed to the US Supreme Court in 1811 by President James Madison) and served with Justice Marshall for many years.So, find out what "native " meant in 1850's and you may find a clue.

41 posted on 04/09/2011 8:09:08 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: Sherman Logan
Barry can't be President due to lying on his Selective Service document.

Barry can't be President because he holds an allegiance to Indonesia by way of Soetero, and England by way his his Dad. He doesn't have our Nation's best interest at heart and this is why our Founders addressed the Natural Born qualification clause for the President.

Sure he can be a Senator, but he can't be President, as he cares about more about Indonesians and Muslims all over the world than he cares about Americans. So that means his allegiance isn't for America. He doesn't care about Americans. He sees us as the enemy and is more in favor of helping his fellow Indonesians and Muslims.

Natural Born is all about allegiance. This guy Barry refused to put his hand to his heart during the pledge of Allegiance during the democrat primaries for 2 reasons. He was never taught the significance and importance of the Pledge of Allegiance in grade school because he was in Indonesia. And secondly, he doesn't have a 1 and only allegiance to America.

It's like those that live in America from other countries and sport their home country's flag. They are proud of where they come from and want to bring their culture over here. Well, whatever. WE are PROUD of our Culture even more and don't feel the need to move to ANOTHER country to display our country. If your country was all that, why not stay there and enjoy it?

That's the problem with Barry. He loves Indonesia and Islam because that's what he grew up with. And it's normal to be patriotic for your home town. That's why he hates America. He never learned about our great nation and is a loser citizen of the world. He needs to just embrace his world citizenship and exit stage left. Barry is a FRAUD.

42 posted on 04/09/2011 8:22:33 PM PDT by train
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To: Sherman Logan

The bold text in my post 17 above - which you are quoting - is excerpted from an 1874 Supreme Court ruling, which happened to be a unanimous opinion.

That case is the latest SCOTUS ruling which refers to the definition of ‘natural born’ as used in the Constitution.

Just look up the ruling for: MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U. S. 162 (1874) to read the entire opinion.


43 posted on 04/09/2011 8:26:05 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (Huguenot)
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To: bushpilot1
It has to be determined if the 14th Amendment can alter the Kind or natural born citizen.

You mean "if" it altered. Of course it can. An Amendment can alter any previous constitutional entry.

44 posted on 04/09/2011 8:30:17 PM PDT by Melas
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To: Melas

The Selective Service System is a means by which the United States maintains information on those potentially subject to military conscription. U.S. Male citizens between the ages of 18 to 25 are required by law to have registered within 30 days of their 18th birthday.

Barry failed this test. It is a minimum requirement to be President.

He forged a Selective Service document in 2008? Ha .... Again, Barry is toast on all fronts. He’s not natural born and he has committed fraud.


45 posted on 04/09/2011 8:36:36 PM PDT by train
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To: Melas

How about “altering” a fake birth certificate and/or selective service document? LOL Trump has the evidence.


46 posted on 04/09/2011 8:37:55 PM PDT by train
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To: train

That has absolutely nothing to do with my post whatsoever.


47 posted on 04/09/2011 8:39:23 PM PDT by Melas
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To: train

While certainly fascinating to some, your post has absolutely nothing to with the post you are replying to just like the previous one. I can’t tell if it’s a lame attempt to erect a strawman, or if you just found my post confusing.


48 posted on 04/09/2011 8:41:27 PM PDT by Melas
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To: Melas

president johnson vetoed the 14th amendment.


49 posted on 04/09/2011 9:05:15 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: PieterCasparzen; bushpilot1
As you point out, Minor indicated "with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, there was no doubt that those born in country of two citizen parents were NBC, but that there was some doubt whether NBC applies to those not born to citizen parents.

Knowing the basis for any of the “doubts” the court referred to would certainly be helpful. However, that discussion itself recognizes the basis for the highest form of citizenship.

On what basis could one conclude the founders did not intend the highest form relative to the two highest offices, and only those two, in the entire government scheme.

As I wrote to my state politician regarding an impotent eligibility bill:

It is possible pursuant to this bill that a candidate born in the U.S. of two visiting foreign citizen parents could have immediately returned to his parent’s native country and remained there for all but the past 14 years. That country may not be an ally of the U.S., the candidate would have received much or all of his schooling there and perhaps even served in that country’s government or armed services.

That sounds the opposite of what the founders would have had in mind for our president and vp..

50 posted on 04/09/2011 9:05:31 PM PDT by frog in a pot (Islamic and Communist totalitarians share the same goal - global domination via jihad.)
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