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Transmission Fluid Changes a Scam
hotfudgedetroit.com ^ | 5/1/2007 | Mark Phelan

Posted on 05/01/2011 10:49:54 AM PDT by Signalman

Take care of your transmission Oil-change shops push fluid changes that aren't needed May 1, 2007

BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS COLUMNIST The $14.99 oil change Linda Good wanted for her 2001 Dodge Voyager ended up costing her more than $100 and buying her a new set of worries. A Madison Heights oil-change shop sold her a transmission fluid change that is almost never necessary, experts say.

"For customers, it's basically throwing your money away," said Daniel Black, Chrysler senior manager of automatic transmission engineering. Despite that, many service stations -- including leading national chains -- offer the procedure. There's no telling how many people pay for it every day. After the oil change, the service attendant said the Voyager's automatic transmission fluid looked dirty and should be changed. Good, who relies on the minivan for her housecleaning, Avon sales and home caregiver businesses, took his advice. The rough, clunky shifts began before she got to the first traffic light. Good cleans my house and knows I drive cars for a living, so she called and asked me how much trouble she was in. Potentially plenty, and it could happen to you. "We don't recommend a" transmission fluid "change in the life of the vehicle," Black said. "The risks are leaks, putting the wrong fluid in, over-filling or under-filling." A bungled fluid change can destroy an automatic transmission or void the manufacturer's warranty on the delicate and expensive component. "As a general rule of thumb, newer transmission designs are sealed for life," said Tim Miskotten, who leads North American business for ZF AG, the German company that is the world's largest independent transmission maker. ZF supplies gearboxes to Ford, Audi, BMW Jaguar and other leading automakers. "You don't need to change the fluid in the normal life of a vehicle," Miskotten said.

Chrysler makes its own transmissions, and its minivans routinely cover 150,000 miles in service as Las Vegas taxis without a transmission fluid change, Black said. "They're our toughest customers," because of constant stop-and-go driving and 24-hour-a-day operation in the blazing desert heat, he said. Black wouldn't diagnose Good's vehicle over the phone, but he said rough shifting after a fluid change could be caused by a refill with the wrong fluid. While few vehicles ever need their transmission fluid changed, even national auto service chains like Jiffy Lube offer the service as routine maintenance. On the rare occasions the fluid actually should be changed, it should be done only by a technician who's certified to work on automatic transmissions and has access to specialized tools and the exact fluid the manufacturer specifies, ZF's Miskotten said.

"You can't just go to the service station and pick up a quart," he said. Each transmission requires fluid produced precisely to formula, he said. "You absolutely have to have the fluid that's specified. It's no longer the case where" an oil shop "says 'We have ATF.' " Using the wrong fluid can lead to rough shifts and noisy operation, he said.

"The correct fluid is most important for shift quality," Black said. It's also vital to fill the transmission to precisely the right level, both experts said. Transmission fluid levels are much more exacting than engine oil, where you can miss the sweet spot by a pint or more with no consequences. "If a vehicle is under-filled and operated in cold weather, you could have a transmission failure," Black said.

Even transmission specialists don't do fluid changes very frequently, said Barry Bryan, owner of American Transmission in Troy. "I check the owner's manual," Bryan said. "If the manufacturer says the fluid never needs to be changed, I agree." Changing the transmission fluid doesn't help if there's already damage, said Bryan, who has owned his station since 1985 and has 40 years' experience working on transmissions. "A problem in the fluid is a sign of other trouble."

After Good had problems with the minivan, she went back to the shop, where she was told she needed more fluid and told if she had more questions to go to a nearby shop under the same ownership. At the second shop she was told to go to a transmission specialist. Mo Dia, who owns Major Oil, where Good had her van serviced, said he recommends a change when fluid is the wrong color or has a burnt smell, adding that the shop does not change fluid if the owner's manual says it is not necessary.

"Does that mean it was a mistake if somebody changed the fluid in a Voyager where Chrysler says it's not necessary?" I asked. "If the vehicle is over 100,000 miles, you don't go by the owner's manual," Dia said. Chrysler said the owner's manual advice still applies after 100,000 miles. Dia initially said he kept every type of transmission fluid in stock. Asked about ATF +4, the fluid Chrysler specifies for the 2001 Voyager, he said, "We have an additive, Smart Blend, to convert regular automatic transmission fluid to ATF +4." "We haven't tested that additive," Chrysler spokeswoman Heather May said. "It's not something we'd recommend." Ten days after the fluid change, Good's Voyager still has rough shifts, but she's comforted knowing that it could be much worse.

"I thought my transmission was going," she said. "That would be a big expense."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: scam; transmissions
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1 posted on 05/01/2011 10:49:56 AM PDT by Signalman
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To: Signalman
"As a general rule of thumb, newer transmission designs are sealed for life," said Tim Miskotten, who leads North American business for ZF AG, the German company that is the world's largest independent transmission maker. ZF supplies gearboxes to Ford, Audi, BMW Jaguar and other leading automakers. "You don't need to change the fluid in the normal life of a vehicle," Miskotten said.

I don't think I believe this. Engines consume oil. I would assume they consume XMSN fluid also.

I own 2 high mileage cars. I have definitely noticed a "lag" in the auto XMSN even when the oil has been changed (i use synthetic).

Need more proof than what some German with an agenda provides.

2 posted on 05/01/2011 10:56:13 AM PDT by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: Signalman

Jiffy Lube had to buy me a new transmission, because their idiots put motor oil into my transmission, by mistake!

Well, I hope it was a mistake, since it requires a funnel to get the spout from the oil hose into the transmission, the nozzle is too big.

It might have been my Republican bumper stickers?

Lots of work release prisoners work at these joints in my area!


3 posted on 05/01/2011 10:56:30 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Signalman
"As a general rule of thumb, newer transmission designs are sealed for life,"

Yeah and they consider life of the vehicle 115K miles.

Never-the-less, sealing them up is probably better than having one of these QuickLube outfits bungle the job.

If you want your transmission to last, change the fluid and filter every 30K miles of normal use. Go to a specialty transmission shop if you have to and make sure before hand that you have read the manufacturers TSB's to verify the correct type fluid to use.

4 posted on 05/01/2011 10:57:09 AM PDT by fso301
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To: Signalman
"We have an additive, Smart Blend, to convert regular automatic transmission fluid to ATF +4."

Yeah right. An additive. What a scam. The only car I know of that requires transmission fluid changes on a regular basis are the Northstar Cadillacs in the 2000's year range. I think it is every 30000 miles.

5 posted on 05/01/2011 10:57:41 AM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
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To: Kansas58
Jiffy Lube had to buy me a new transmission, because their idiots put motor oil into my transmission, by mistake!

Don't ever, never take your car to jiffy lube or any of those places.

When ya drain the oil, leave the drain plug out for 15 or 20 minutes. I leave my out for 2 hours. You have to allow all the dirty oil to drain out that is clinging to all the internal engine parts..

If ya don't do this, your putting new oil in with old nasty dirty oil.

If ya like your vehicle, and want it to last, do this.

6 posted on 05/01/2011 11:03:59 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Signalman

The world is in chaos and we are worried about transmission fluid?


7 posted on 05/01/2011 11:05:26 AM PDT by toomanylaws
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To: Signalman
I have a 2001 Mazda Tribute 4WD. (same as the Ford Explorer).

Factory service recommendation is to change the transmission fluid every 30K miles.

8 posted on 05/01/2011 11:06:14 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: sauropod

I’ve got a 2003 Jag, purchased new in 2002, that just passed 104K miles. The tranny is sealed (Jag says do not change the fluid) and uses synthetic ATF. It shifts as smoothly today as it did when I first bought it. I tend to believe that it’s better not to mess with the tranny fluid...with a few exceptions.

If you frequently tow a trailer (that puts a lot of strain on the transmission) or if you drive for an extended period in a hot climate (Phoenix from June-August for example). In those cases, I would change the fluid every 30K-60K miles.


9 posted on 05/01/2011 11:07:11 AM PDT by Signalman
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To: Lazlo in PA

My 2005 GMC truck lasted 108K miles before the 4 speed auto tranny became a 2 speed powerglide.
Had failed to change the fluid at 75k and the transmission crapped out at 108K.
Now I’m driving a Ford, no guv’ment money so that’s good news!


10 posted on 05/01/2011 11:07:24 AM PDT by 9422WMR (Illegal is not a race. Obamacare is a crime)
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To: dragnet2

Right you are about that! My late dad always let the oil drip out of the engine for at least 2-3 hours before adding new oil to the engine. That is how you do the job right!

That being said I new a fellow who worked at a Jiffy Lube in New Jersey who put Transmission fluid in a car radiator his first(and last) day on the job!


11 posted on 05/01/2011 11:11:46 AM PDT by 4yearlurker
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Please Donate



12 posted on 05/01/2011 11:12:09 AM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: Signalman

If you want your transmission to last as long as your engine - i.e., past 120,000 miles for 4 cyl., 160,000 for 6 cyl. and 240,000 for 8 cyl. then the following rules of thumb are a good guide:

1. For non-filtered transmissions - typically Hondas - whether regular or synthetic (typically regular) - do a complete fluid change every 15,000 miles or as needed.

Hondas are pretty easy - most can be done at home. It’s just like an oil pan - drain - and refill.

2. For filtered transmissions - sealed or non-sealed - whether regular or synthetic (typically synthetic or blend) - do a partial fluid change every 30,000 miles or as needed.

DO NOT DO COMPLETE FLUID CHANGES ON FILTERED TRANSMISSIONS THAT SEE NORMAL USE. THAT CAN HARM THE TRANSMISSION. PULL OUT THE MANUAL FOR SUCH CARS AND IT’LL TELL YOU EXACTLY THAT.

One of the early mistakes made at “Jiffy Lube” like centers early on was the “complete fluid flush” service that was offered on ALL TRANSMISSIONS. A lot of these centers got hit with suits early on for damage to transmissions that required partial fluid changes. They’ve wised up nowadays...

=8-)


13 posted on 05/01/2011 11:12:19 AM PDT by =8 mrrabbit 8=
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To: Signalman

Unless you regularly tow a trailer or something, you shouldn’t need to change your transmission fluid more than every 60K to 100K miles. It is important to use the correct fluid, of course.


14 posted on 05/01/2011 11:12:24 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: Signalman

Interesting that they did mention filter changes. I don’t know what ‘sealed up’ means either...do they literally not have a pan on the vehicle?

I’ve noticed my newer vehicles have a magnet in the pan...usually covered with small bits of metal. I wipe the shavings off the magnet, change the filter, add back the amount of fluid lost when I dropped the pan, make the sign of the cross, and go on with life. I figure changing the filter often enough will change out enough fluid over time.

I think the lesson learned here is that the quick-lube places usually use very low quality fluids....they added an additive to make it AT-4? If that worked, you’d be able to buy the same additive off the shelf.

Many of my newer cars require fairly specialized oils...semisynthetics, in some strange weights, like 5-20. I would be terrified to go to a quick-lube place, since that magic hose that dispenses the oil is probably just 10-30.

If you have a newer car, I think the options are increasingly becoming DIY or dealer...but I do have little trust for the independent lube places.


15 posted on 05/01/2011 11:12:24 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: toomanylaws

By all means, feel free to ignore the transmissions in your vehicle, and instead type on the Internet.

No problem.


16 posted on 05/01/2011 11:12:27 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Signalman

I remember reading in my Chrysler owner’s manual years ago that the transmission (or transfer case?) fluid had a colorant that faded away gradually. Repair shops did not like to hear that, said it was news to them, that my fluid was “dirty”.

As for Jiffy Lube, my last visit there a decade ago had them tell me a throttle plate cleaning at $245 was part of my vehicle’s scheduled maintenance. It was not.

It’s been Walmart for me ever since, and I’ve saved hundreds of dollars on oil changes, filters, batteries, etc.


17 posted on 05/01/2011 11:13:01 AM PDT by Stalwart
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To: 4yearlurker
ooops. new=knew.
18 posted on 05/01/2011 11:13:04 AM PDT by 4yearlurker
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To: Signalman

Appreciate the input. I drive mainly in hot, humid environments (east coast, Baltimordor, DC, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Delaware). I drive a Turbo also. That may have something to do with this.

Can’t afford a Jag ;-).


19 posted on 05/01/2011 11:13:27 AM PDT by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: Signalman

Appreciate the input. I drive mainly in hot, humid environments (east coast, Baltimordor, DC, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Delaware). I drive a Turbo also. That may have something to do with this.

Can’t afford a Jag ;-).


20 posted on 05/01/2011 11:13:28 AM PDT by sauropod (The truth shall make you free but first it will make you miserable.)
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To: sauropod

I own 2 high mileage cars. I have definitely noticed a “lag” in the auto XMSN even when the oil has been changed (i use synthetic).
******************************************
Minor transmission problems like your “lag” are usually due to slightly dirty or sticking components... I have used “AUTO-RX” to clean a Mercedes tranny (slow upshifts when cold) and a Taurus (AXOD tranny) that slipped completely out of gear in hard left turns ... The stuff is magic ,, cleans slowly and completely ,, drove both cars another 100k afterwards ... Follow the advice on the website and have the fluid and filter completely changed by a transmission specialist after treatment. http://auto-rx.com/transmissions.html


21 posted on 05/01/2011 11:16:11 AM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: 4yearlurker
Jiffy Lube had to buy me a new transmission, because their idiots put motor oil into my transmission, by mistake!

Don't ever, never take your car to jiffy lube or any of those places.

When ya drain the oil, leave the drain plug out for 15 or 20 minutes. I leave my out for 2 hours. You have to allow all the dirty oil to drain out that is clinging to all the internal engine parts..

If ya don't do this, your putting new oil in with old nasty dirty oil.

If ya like your vehicle, and want it to last, do this.

Right you are about that! My late dad always let the oil drip out of the engine for at least 2-3 hours before adding new oil to the engine. That is how you do the job right!

Dad was right, but this has more to do with engines than transmissions. But transmissions should also be allowed to drain out for at least 20 minutes.

BTW, I sometimes allow my engine oil to drain completely over night before adding new, when I know I wont be using my vehicle over night.

22 posted on 05/01/2011 11:17:26 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Kansas58

Reminds me of the time as a kid when I changed the engine oil in my car.

I couldn’t figure out why the transmission was slipping while I was out for a test drive. I coasted over to the curb and checked the transmission fluid — nothing. Not a drop.

I checked the oil — it was well above top mark on the dip stick.

I pulled the plug on the transmission fluid instead of the engine oil. The car was fine after I added transmission fluid and drained the oil. My grandfather had a good laugh.


23 posted on 05/01/2011 11:18:03 AM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Signalman

We just had our transmission filter changed and it’s been running lousy ever since. Bringing it back to the shop tomorrow. Maybe I’ll print out this article and bring it with me.


24 posted on 05/01/2011 11:18:03 AM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
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To: toomanylaws

The chaos of the world sucks a lot more with a busted car.


25 posted on 05/01/2011 11:18:20 AM PDT by discostu (Come on Punky, get Funky)
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To: Stalwart

“As for Jiffy Lube, my last visit there a decade ago had them tell me a throttle plate cleaning at $245 was part of my vehicle’s scheduled maintenance. It was not.”

I took a company vehicle to a local place once. As I was waiting in the lobby, I witnessed an almost comical parade of ‘technicians’ bringing hoses, filters, belts, etc. into the lobby to show to this elderly woman. She stood firm and told them ‘no’ every time...but this is how I discovered what the business model of these places is.

Who knows, maybe they asked to clean her throttle plate too :). I can’t remember all the junk they tried to sell her.


26 posted on 05/01/2011 11:22:11 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Signalman

I constantly stew about how often to change diff, transfer case, and manual tranny fluid on my 4WD. Was worrying about it even this morning. Not allowed to do it at home and can’t shell out the bucks for the inflated dealer intervals.


27 posted on 05/01/2011 11:23:10 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: sauropod

Sure.

And the sealed bearings on your wheels need periodic service. /s


28 posted on 05/01/2011 11:23:46 AM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: Kansas58
Jiffy Lube screwed up a simple oil change for me. I had them do an oil change (they tried to sell me a whole bunch of other services). The next day the engine smelled of burned oil and was about two quarts low. I topped it off and called my mechanic, fearing an oil leak. I left it with him and told me it definitely did not have an oil leak. Apparently the morons had spilled oil on the exhaust manifold and left the sump almost dry. He preformed an oil change, and new filter gratis. I couldn't pay because I picked it after hours and there was no one there to take my money and the repair ticket was $0.0 dollars. I've put about 7,000 trouble free miles on it since. Guess who I'm taking it to next time?
29 posted on 05/01/2011 11:28:09 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Jiffy Lube screwed up a simple oil change for me.

Don't ever take your vehicles to a jiffy lube type place.

Trust me.

See 22.

30 posted on 05/01/2011 11:31:46 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Oshkalaboomboom
We just had our transmission filter changed and it’s been running lousy ever since. Bringing it back to the shop tomorrow. Maybe I’ll print out this article and bring it with me.

Once my car was out of extended warranty, I began all the maintenance myself.

First time I changed the tranny fluid, it ran poorly. The manual said to use SPII fluid which is what I used. I then read the manufacturer's TSB and there was a bulletin advising the use of SPIII fluid. So, i drained the fluid I just put in and replaced it with SPIII and it ran much better although still had some shift problems due to the amount of SPII fluid that was leftover in the torque converter. I went back, drained the fluid again and added fresh SPIII and that did the trick. Shifts as smooth as silk.

Unfortunately, it cost me an extra $100 worth of fluid to make up for having added the wrong fluid.

31 posted on 05/01/2011 11:32:39 AM PDT by fso301
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To: sauropod

Engines consume oil. .... I don’t believe we are talking engines. We are talking transmissions here.


32 posted on 05/01/2011 11:33:47 AM PDT by Safetgiver (I'd rather die under a free American sky than live under a Socialist regime.)
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To: Signalman

there is nothing wrong with changing your transmission oil and filter- i do it every 30 thousand miles cause your filter starts to stop up with fine clutch shavings. after 30,000 you can pull your oil pan off and scrap about 1/16 of and inch of clutch shavings with your finger. so you know its in the filter if its settled in the pan also. i’ve heard of people putting pure synthetic oils in there trans, and the car woundnt even move cause the clutchs slip to easy due to the oil is to slick- trans fluid is kinda dry when you feel of it, i guess so the clutchs plates can grab better. it is good to change your trans fluid, cause heat will break down any oil over time. oil would last a lifetime if the heat wasnt breaking it down.


33 posted on 05/01/2011 11:42:58 AM PDT by chicken head
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To: Signalman

For all hydraulics the thing to remember is...keep it cool and keep it clean. Heat will destroy a transmission, and an automatic is run by hydraulics.


34 posted on 05/01/2011 11:43:11 AM PDT by crz
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To: Signalman
True story: Bought a 1995 Mazda 626 LX at the dealership. Transmission broke down in 98 and cost $2500 to repair. Broke down again 2 months after that and the repair shop (forget the name) fixed it FREE!!!

2003: Tranny started losing fluid and smoking when it got low. I couldn't drive 20 miles without losing so much fluid that it smoked. Even got pulled over by a State Trooper once 'cuz it was smoking trying to nurse it home (very rural area, no place to stop and pick up a quart or two to get it home).

Bought a large bottle of Lucas Auto Transmission stop leak, filled the tranny with it and drove it 4 more years, no more smoking, no more leaking, and shifting as smooth as the day I got it. The stuff is gold.

35 posted on 05/01/2011 11:43:24 AM PDT by jeffc (Prayer. It's freedom of speech.)
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To: jeffc
Lucas Auto Transmission stop leak

Worked in my Ford C-4 also.

36 posted on 05/01/2011 11:47:17 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurture (Could be worst in 40 years))
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To: chicken head

You are doing what I do....replace the filter and what is in the pan.

The lube shops are selling a ‘total fluid exchange’.

Say you replace 4 quarts when you drop the pan...there may be another 7 in the transmission...they are trying to scare people into exchanging all of this fluid.

I have operated on the notion that changing out some of the fluid with every filter change will be sufficient...but apparantly some new cars don’t even have changeable filters and pans.

I would never do the ‘transfusion’ the shops offer...seems like alot of stuff can go wrong.


37 posted on 05/01/2011 11:49:50 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: lacrew

I think you mean pints, not quarts.

Most transmissions that I’ve changed fluid on, or added fluid to were spec’d in pints.

=8-)


38 posted on 05/01/2011 11:55:46 AM PDT by =8 mrrabbit 8=
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To: lacrew

yeah, you cant get it all, cause you have approx 3 to 4 quarts in the torqe converter- i always just drop the pan and change filter, and add oil thats needed.


39 posted on 05/01/2011 11:55:46 AM PDT by chicken head
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To: Signalman

“Chrysler makes its own transmissions....”

That explains a lot.


40 posted on 05/01/2011 11:56:43 AM PDT by mowowie
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To: =8 mrrabbit 8=

a trans thats dry will hold 8 to 12 quarts cause the converter holds alot. just dropping the pan you will have to add aprox 6 thu 8 quarts- i just installed a new one in my 67 camaro a TH350 holds 12 quarts


41 posted on 05/01/2011 11:59:40 AM PDT by chicken head
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To: toomanylaws

Think we have chaos now, just wait till all the automatic transmissions fail!


42 posted on 05/01/2011 12:01:31 PM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Somewhere in Kenya a village is missing its idiot)
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To: lacrew

this is the 67 camaro i built for my son, and me behind the wheel- it has th 350 trans with 375 hp 350 engine— it’s quick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IVu9tu9UCI


43 posted on 05/01/2011 12:07:01 PM PDT by chicken head
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To: Signalman

Jet engines like those from Rolls Royce or GE never ever have to have it’s lubrication replaced for the life of the engine under normal circumstances.
They do use synthetic lubricants.


44 posted on 05/01/2011 12:07:01 PM PDT by mowowie
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To: =8 mrrabbit 8=

Huh? Its sold by the quart, capacity charts are in quarts...but you could use milliliters if it floats your boat. The unit of measure has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


45 posted on 05/01/2011 12:07:52 PM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: tacticalogic

Got an F-150 and 30K miles also. Somehow, I think this is revenue for the dealer. They charge $159. Other vehicles I’ve had ALWAYs have hit 100k miles without anything but topping off, if at all, with the right fluid. I don’t think I’m going to do this. I’ll wait until maybe 75K if at all.


46 posted on 05/01/2011 12:11:05 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Signalman
The difference between a tranny and an engine is that no combustion occures in a transmission.
No un-burned gasoline, oxidation, or other contaminates ever enter a transmissions case.
As long as the transmission operates properly The oil remains the same for most of it's life.
47 posted on 05/01/2011 12:15:48 PM PDT by mowowie
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To: chicken head

Way cool - that machine sounds healthy and your son is a lucky young man.


48 posted on 05/01/2011 12:16:32 PM PDT by dainbramaged (Courage is fear holding on a minute longer - George S. Patton)
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To: sauropod

Engines have combustion in them; transmissions don’t. After awhile (3000-5000 miles or so?) those little microscopic particles of dust become a problem in the crankcase, along with maybe even some microscopically small fragments of steel and other stuff. That’s why your engine has an air filter and an oil filter.


49 posted on 05/01/2011 12:22:13 PM PDT by OKSooner (Obama confessed "his muslim faith" on the George Stephanopolous show on September 7th, 2008.)
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To: dainbramaged

i found the engine behind my uncles shed, with a small tree growing though one of the cylinders..lol.. i rebuilt it with all new parts- new crank,rods, trw pistons, comp cam, and 69 -202 corvette heads.


50 posted on 05/01/2011 12:24:59 PM PDT by chicken head
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