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Colt on the Outs as Defense Department Opens Bids for Combat Rifles
Fox News ^ | May 25, 2011

Posted on 05/26/2011 6:45:31 AM PDT by KeyLargo

Colt on the Outs as Defense Department Opens Bids for Combat Rifles

Published May 25, 2011 | Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- For nearly a decade, Colt Defense went without a lobbyist. The legendary gun maker based in West Hartford, Conn., had an exclusive deal to provide combat rifles to the U.S. military and didn't need a hired gun looking out for the company's interests in Washington.

Times have changed. After buying more than 700,000 Colt M4 carbines, the Defense Department has started a search for the rifle's successor, giving Colt's competitors the long-awaited chance to break the company's grip on the market. So Colt turned to Roger Smith, a former deputy assistant Navy secretary-turned-lobbyist, to be the company's voice in D.C. His fee is $120,000 a year.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Military/Veterans; Outdoors; Sports
KEYWORDS: banklist; colt; military; rifle
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Colt CM901
1 posted on 05/26/2011 6:45:37 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: KeyLargo
"combat rifles"

As opposed to an assault rifle?

2 posted on 05/26/2011 6:47:29 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

Or a battle rifle.


3 posted on 05/26/2011 6:47:51 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: KeyLargo

They will pick something Soros owns.


4 posted on 05/26/2011 6:48:32 AM PDT by nolongerademocrat ("Before you ask G-d for something, first thank G-d for what you already have." B'rachot 30b)
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To: KeyLargo

I’m recalling that awhile back there was an article here that said that even the Army says the M4 “sucks.”


5 posted on 05/26/2011 6:48:50 AM PDT by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: KeyLargo

They will pick something Soros owns.


6 posted on 05/26/2011 6:48:59 AM PDT by nolongerademocrat ("Before you ask G-d for something, first thank G-d for what you already have." B'rachot 30b)
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To: All

Microsoft had an issue and they realized that they weren’t in the game enough. They now have one of the largest corporate lobbying presences in DC. Lesson learned, in order to do business, you have to play sewerball in the swamps of Maryland.


7 posted on 05/26/2011 6:49:58 AM PDT by newnhdad
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To: pnh102
I’m recalling that awhile back there was an article here that said that even the Army says the M4 “sucks.”

More like 5.56NATO (.223) sucks. They need a bigger caliber with more range and knockdown power. Maybe not 7.62, but perhaps 6.5 Grendel.

8 posted on 05/26/2011 6:57:27 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: pnh102

even the Army says the M4 “sucks.”

Direct-gas action - fouling and heat. Known weakness of the Stoner(?) design since day zero.


9 posted on 05/26/2011 7:00:42 AM PDT by flowerplough (Obama: "Get back inside '67 borders." / Helen Thomas:"Go back to Poland and Germany!")
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To: PapaBear3625

Guys I talk to who are downrange say 5.56 brings the pain just fine. The 77gr OTM ammo is apparently well liked and received.


10 posted on 05/26/2011 7:04:27 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: PapaBear3625

what about the 6.8? I’d like to fire one of those someday soon.


11 posted on 05/26/2011 7:08:05 AM PDT by wheresmyusa (FTUN)
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To: PapaBear3625

6.5 Grendel Product Overview from Hornady®

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC9hjqsIIY4


12 posted on 05/26/2011 7:12:07 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: KeyLargo

The headline is interesting. It states that Colt is ‘on the outs’, implying they are ‘in trouble’ with the DoD, but the story does not explain what, if anything, they did wrong. Based on what I can find on-line it appears Colt’s current contract for M4s is set to expire some time in 2013 and the DoD wants to have a ‘new’ combat rifle ready for production by the time that happens.

Is it really all that unusual for the military to seek a successor to the M4 after almost 20 years in production? And is it really all the surprising that Colt might want a piece of the action (hence the lobbyist)?

It certainly does not appear that the DoD is terminating Colt’s current contract early or anything like that, so I am not sure what ‘on the outs’ is supposed to mean.


13 posted on 05/26/2011 7:14:19 AM PDT by WayneS ("I hope you know this will go down on your PERMANENT record...")
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To: randomhero97

Are your friends in Iraq or Afghanistan? I’ve been reading a bit about how 5.56 doesn’t have the range needed in Afghanistan, and the Army has been re-issuing some M-14s, and that it was also the impetus for SOCOM wanting the 7.62 SCAR-H rifle.


14 posted on 05/26/2011 7:16:11 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: flowerplough

That is why back in the earlyn 80’s (when the unit armory would carry personal weapons around) I had an HK91.

I didn’t figure I neded the full auto of the G3, and it was a damned good weapon.


15 posted on 05/26/2011 7:16:58 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: flowerplough

It’s also why it’s more accurate than any piston design.


16 posted on 05/26/2011 7:20:30 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: wheresmyusa
what about the 6.8? I’d like to fire one of those someday soon.

I have the 6.8 spc. It mimicks the 30-30(except faster and flatter) with a really pointy bullet.

17 posted on 05/26/2011 7:21:32 AM PDT by umgud
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To: WayneS
It certainly does not appear that the DoD is terminating Colt’s current contract early or anything like that, so I am not sure what ‘on the outs’ is supposed to mean.

It's the lefty definition of competition.

If you are "in" there is no competition, just a long string of contracts.

If you are out {heaven forbid} you will have to compete, both via product and price.

The military, should end up with a better weapon at a lower price.

18 posted on 05/26/2011 7:22:10 AM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorist savages.)
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To: KeyLargo; All; y'all; no one in particular
Not to put too fine a point on it, but...

We need to stop killing talibunnies outright. They want that!

On instant they are a noble jihadist, the next they've got 72 virgins in that whorehouse-in-the-sky they call paradise.

What we need to do is inflict horrible disfiguring painful and disabling wounds with a slow lingering burdensome death.

Preferably after a long enough delay so that they can be a gruesome object lesson for everyone in the village...

19 posted on 05/26/2011 7:22:25 AM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 854 of our national holiday from reality. - Obama really isn't one of us)
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To: USS Alaska

Name a better weapon than the AR/m-16 plaform.


20 posted on 05/26/2011 7:24:50 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: KeyLargo

I thought FN Herstal was making the M16 for the US Military?


21 posted on 05/26/2011 7:25:32 AM PDT by donozark (I was Amelia Earhart.)
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To: Durus

More accurate? Maybe so.

But you gonna reach out and touch some terrorists with .22 caliber? I know it can be done, and is often done, but for long range and sniping, given a choice, you gonna choose a .22?

M-16 @ 5.56 was originally selected for carry-that-much-more-ammo spray-and-pray, with a wounded Sovietski actually costing Ivan more than a dead troop. Center mass, full auto, 3-5 round burst, and then on to the next target. Sequential buckshot. Hayna or no?


22 posted on 05/26/2011 7:29:31 AM PDT by flowerplough (Obama: "Get back inside '67 borders." / Helen Thomas:"Go back to Poland and Germany!")
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To: KeyLargo

more connecticut jobs down the sewer.


23 posted on 05/26/2011 7:34:10 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Durus
Other rifles that will probably be in the competition include the FN SCAR and the HK 416
24 posted on 05/26/2011 7:34:33 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: flowerplough

The AR/M16/M4 can use a wide variety of calibers. If the .223 is your objection, lobby for them to use a better caliber. Why replace the platform?


25 posted on 05/26/2011 7:37:47 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: PapaBear3625

How do you figure they are better?


26 posted on 05/26/2011 7:39:19 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: KeyLargo

Why not something in 7.62 x 39? Enemy weapons cache = ammo re-supply in the field.


27 posted on 05/26/2011 7:39:19 AM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: PapaBear3625
Both.

Yeah, I have heard that as well. Apparently, from what I read, the Army is implementing two squad riflemen now with M-14s.

The guys I talk to are mainly door kickers and I don't think ever engages over 300 yards.
28 posted on 05/26/2011 7:40:18 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: DTogo

Because the 7.63x39 has an effective range under 350m.


29 posted on 05/26/2011 7:40:45 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: KeyLargo

This country has NOT WON a war since we got rid of the M-1 Garand, The Browning Automatic Rifle and the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun. Go back to these and get rid of WOMEN in the “military” and we just MAY start winning wars again.


30 posted on 05/26/2011 7:41:49 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers!)
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To: randomhero97
Guys I talk to who are downrange say 5.56 brings the pain just fine.

I'll say this as someone who didn't shoot much prior to joining the Army. Lots of Soldiers aren't really that well rounded as shooters. I was very pleased with my M9 Beretta and M4 until I worked in a SOF unit and got to play with some other toys. My first deployment to Iraq, I had a 1911 that must have been pulled out of mothballs from the Korean War, and it shot like a champion. The M9 felt like a cheap toy after that.

I also spent a few years downrange teaching, after my enlistment was up, fielding new gear around theater(s). Soldiers instinctively get by with whatever tools they have, and have faith in their gear, even when there's a lot better stuff available. Partly because that faith gets them through some tough spots, partly because they just don't know any better.

While I'm always interested in what the troops have to say about their requirements and experiences, a little perspective about their perspective goes a long way.

31 posted on 05/26/2011 7:43:34 AM PDT by Steel Wolf ("There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate." - Ibn Warraq)
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To: DTogo

If you look at the ballistics and trajectory of the 7.62x39, you’ll see that it resembles the Win .30-30. Besides, the Russians and Chinese look like they are going away from 7.62 as well.


32 posted on 05/26/2011 7:43:48 AM PDT by Pecos (Constitutionalist. Liberty and Honor will not die on my watch.)
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To: US Navy Vet

The AR is more accurate and more dependable that M1. The BAR is a kickass light machine gun, no debate there. I also love the Thompson.


33 posted on 05/26/2011 7:44:19 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: Steel Wolf
I had a 1911

Oh boy, now you gone and done it. I can see the .45 vs 9mm posts looming on the horizon. ; )
34 posted on 05/26/2011 7:46:38 AM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: US Navy Vet
Oh geez......give me a break.
35 posted on 05/26/2011 7:48:44 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: wheresmyusa

Shot one the other day. Very inpressive. Change out upper on the AR/M16 and mags fit in lower. Instant solution a perceived problem. Same manual of arms. Same cleaning, same accessories, etc. Also weight is close. One of the big advantages of the current platform.


36 posted on 05/26/2011 7:49:57 AM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: US Navy Vet
"This country has NOT WON a war since we got rid of the M-1 Garand, The Browning Automatic Rifle and the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun. Go back to these and get rid of WOMEN in the “military” and we just MAY start winning wars again."

Tsk, tsk.

37 posted on 05/26/2011 7:50:23 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: Durus

Beyond 350m, it would seem prudent to switch to a caliber larger than .223 or 7.62x39 anyway.


38 posted on 05/26/2011 7:50:35 AM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: US Navy Vet

“This country has NOT WON a war since”

...since liberals (read: Communsits) unfluenced the DoD through politics. The weapons had nothing to do with it.


39 posted on 05/26/2011 7:51:50 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: Durus

Because the platform is high maintenance, and short on weapon life.

It always has been.


40 posted on 05/26/2011 7:55:25 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: DTogo
One of the requirements of the rifle is an effective range of 400meters. That would require something better than a .223 and a 6.5 Grendel would be my choice. It requires a barrel/bolt change, but otherise uses all the same parts. Mags can be adapted.

It's the cheapest choice by far. Unless a gun company unveils some new technology, which is possible, there really isn't a better choice than modernizing the m4. (how about starting with 18" barrel along with the caliber upgrade.)

41 posted on 05/26/2011 7:56:30 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: Durus
How do you figure they are better?

I don't. I merely say that the two rifles I noted will likely be in the competition. The Army (hopefully with input from the troops) will decide the definition of "better".

42 posted on 05/26/2011 8:01:33 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: null and void
What we need to do is inflict horrible disfiguring painful and disabling wounds with a slow lingering burdensome death.

I like the way you think. I can't recall which ancient war it happened during, but there was a King who once he defeated his enemies blinded 9 out of ten of the prisoners and took one eye out of the remaining so he could lead the rest home. This put such a burden on the defeated society that they couldn't raise another army.

43 posted on 05/26/2011 8:04:15 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: US Navy Vet

Have we even officially declared a war since those days?

Regardless of what they are called, though, it seems like the troops have done plenty well with the equipment provided to them in the first Gulf War, Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Afghanistan, etc...

Americans are WINNERS, and I’d put all of those in the WIN column. :)


44 posted on 05/26/2011 8:07:37 AM PDT by Fletcher J
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To: MrEdd
It's neither. What causes most of the problems in America? It's the same thing that caused the initial problems with the M16 that gave it a bad rep. Yes, ignorant government bureaucrats making stupid decision. First they decided to change the ammo to a powder type which the M16 team strongly objected too. Second they shipped the rifles without cleaning kits. It was a bit of a one-two punch and the M16 has never lived down the reputation caused by moronic hacks.

If you attach a reciprocating mass to a barrel you create inaccuracy. If that reciprocating mass has lots of moving parts you introduce complexity. With an AR you have a tube. There isn't much to go wrong with a tube. Chrome&Coat the bolt and that rifle will be as reliable as any named as competition.

45 posted on 05/26/2011 8:09:18 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: randomhero97
Yeah, I have heard that as well. Apparently, from what I read, the Army is implementing two squad riflemen now with M-14s.

The solution, rather than trying for "one-size-fits-all" might be to have a 5.56 and 7.62 that are ergonomically similar (to simplify training), and issue the better marksmen in the squad the 7.62 (having a rifle that can hit at 800 yards is no good unless you have a rifleman that can use that potential).

46 posted on 05/26/2011 8:10:23 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: Durus

You just conceded my point.

It needs.constant.cleaning, even with the proper amunition. Cleaning you may not have time for or.which may be unadvantagouse in the typhoon or sandstorm you are in.

I prefer a weapon that is reliable when I am in a khamsin or slogging through a Phillipino swamp in monsoon season. Both of which are places I wound up.

Gas operated aint it.


47 posted on 05/26/2011 8:42:33 AM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: MrEdd

“Because the platform is high maintenance, and short on weapon life”

What???

The platform is probably the easiest to maintain weapon ever. And that includes over/under shotguns or pumps.

If anything does go wrong you just replace the part. In about 30 seconds. You may shoot out a barrel in about 35,000 rounds or so. Replace the barrel. Or, just replace the whole upper. Takes about 30 seconds. Damn...


48 posted on 05/26/2011 9:06:10 AM PDT by saleman (!!!!)
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To: PapaBear3625

I like the HK 416.

I’d like to have one chambered in .243


49 posted on 05/26/2011 9:31:25 AM PDT by WayneS ("I hope you know this will go down on your PERMANENT record...")
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To: MrEdd
No I didn't concede your point. An AR doesn't need "constant" cleaning. Does it need to be cleaned more than a piston? Yes. Even a piston platform needs to be cleaned. There is no such thing as a perfect rifle and all platforms have strengths and weakness. A rifle has to do more than go BANG every time you pull the trigger. It has to be capable of the accuracy required to hit what you are aiming at. The biggest weakness of a piston platform is accuracy. The biggest weakness to the m4 is the caliber. The second biggest weakness is also one of it greatest strengths. Because it's a gas impingement system, powder residue is deposited in the chamber, but because it is a GI system it is also more accurate than a piston. Chrome plating the bolt mitigates the weakness while preserving the strength. Putting something other than 5.56 in the stoner platform removes its biggest weakness.
50 posted on 05/26/2011 9:40:41 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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