Skip to comments.Majorcan Descendants of Spanish Jews Who Converted Are Recognized as Jews
Posted on 07/10/2011 7:04:06 PM PDT by Palter
Centuries after the Spanish Inquisition led to the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism, an ultra-orthodox rabbinical court in Israel has issued a religious ruling that recognizes descendants from the insular island of Majorca as Jews.
The opinion focused narrowly on the Majorcan community of about 20,000 people known as chuetas and did not apply to descendants of Sephardic Jewish converts in mainland Spain or the broader diaspora of thousands of others who scattered to the Ottoman Empire and the Spanish colonies in South and North America.
The island, isolated until a tourist boom that began in the late 1960s, is a sociological preserve for descendants of Jews who formed an insular community of Catholic converts that intermarried through the centuries because of religious persecution and discrimination that barred them from holding certain positions in the Roman Catholic Church through the 20th century. Most carry the names of 15 families with ancestors who were tried and executed during the 17th century for practicing Judaism.
The religious court in Israel, led for more than 40 years by Rabbi Nissim Karelitz, sent another rabbi to the island in May to explore its warren of streets where a synagogue once stood and to examine the family trees of some of the chuetas who trace lineage back 500 years.
In a two-paragraph opinion typical of the private rabbinical court that deals with matters of conversions, marriage conflicts and financial disputes Rabbi Karelitz issued a statement that said because of the intermarriage patterns of the chuetas, all those who are related to the former generations are Jews.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
In the course of time that became the ONLY part of the Umayyad to survive various conquests, wars, plagues, and sufferings. That was the end of the first period. It sure wasn't a sweet deal for Christians outside the small Christian states in the North
Finally, the Umayyad state broke down into a series of small principalities ~ which were open to conquest by small Christian states (e.g. Leon, Castile, Carvajal).
That's when things improved. Even intermarriage happened.
At some point a North African Moslem kingdom invaded to punish the local Spanish Moslems for having fallen away.
That was period three.
Finally there was the fourth period where the small Christian states became LARGE Christian states who attracted thousands of the younger sons of French knights. The entire leadership class in Spain became intertwined with that of France and England and first thing you know Isabella and Ferdinand had taken over the peninsula.
We all know most of the history after that.
I've noticed a tendency for Moslems to focus on the first period ~ which really was a bit more liberal than Christians imagine, but Christians focus on the fourth period which had less warfare than Moslems imagine. There are long stretches in between where Spanish society built laws, architecture, and a Jewish intellectual and engineering class. That's usually not much appreciated.
BTW, all those Jewish trade names with "Smid" or "Schmid" in them? That's from the Spanish period ~ "Scmei de" is from Ladino ~ the latinate language Jews used in Spain. There are an awful lot of Jewish trade names ~
Some analysts argue that Jews in Spain constituted the world's first industrial class ~ and certainly served as the major mercantile class North of the Mediterranean for centuries.
The Christians and Moslems busied themselves with gentlemanly pursuits ~ farming, herding, making war.
Not a cultural relativist at all. The primary point was just that there is a lot of distorted history. If you haven’t read the Morera article, you might find it interesting.
The secondary point was that every group has been victimized at some time or other and has also victimized others. That doesn’t mean that all groups are equivalent. Mohammedans, for example, have victimized far more than they have been victims (I’m excluding the ways in which Mohammedans have victimized themselves.). Armenians, to take a relatively uncontroversial example, have generally been far more victimized than victimizers.
“Leave or convert, and then test for real conversion with torture. Yeah, it was bad.”
That isn’t what happened.
You seem to be the one under the influence here. I am dealing with facts. You’re dealing with fanatasies. That’s why you don’t even have recourse to any sources for your baseless assertions.
“You see the problem here? Its not simply a matter of the caricature of Christians persecuting Jews. There were complicated dynamics at play, with Kings often at odds with the Pope in these matters, and Pope often sticking up for the rights of those who were being persecuted by mobs or the Crown or whoever.”
“complicated dynamics at play”, ......Oh please........
“Its not simply a matter of the caricature of Christians persecuting Jews.”
........No? Then who did these sadistic acts? Hindus? Buddhists?.......Little green men in flying saucers, the Martians?????
The only problem to be seen is that of rationalization for people who were religious and political leaders, who, supposably knew the difference between right and wrong, and acted with incredibly appalling vicious hatred and sadism.
And please, no more of the “They were just following orders”......enough already......
It may make you and your fellow Anti-Semitic revisionists better....... But here’s the real question, and the only one that really matters in all of this:
“How to you think G-D actually feels about it?”
I thought you weren't playing the victim card. Since you use the PC term "CE", what have you renamed the weekdays as? They were named after Norse gods, dontcha know. And let's not even get started on the months.
Don’t even bother with it. It is beyond them. The man is clearly an Anti-Semitic Revisionist. He will skew and misrepresent facts until the cows come home. People like that get off on doing it. It is just another way of getting at the Jew.
Interestingly, but not surprisingly, you will find a number of writings specifically warning us of Revisionism, and other things that these people will do at this particular time.
You’ll find it written in the prophecies of our Holy Niviim, the Tehillem, Midrashim, and the Zohar. It is amazing to see the so prophecies accurately taking place, and like clockwork......
You already know what happens to their Neshamas for doing such things to us......Just say “Baruch HaShem” that you are not one of them.
They will find out soon enough.
“and then you can close your eyes to the hate and violence... until it comes your way.”
It is called “Midda Kinnegid Midda”.......and it will hit them soon enough.
Read the actual documents and communications, including those of the church. They are available for research. It is exactly what happened.
As I said, unless you can read these, you have nothing but more garbage to offer.
Since “Jesus” wasn’t born in the year 1, and since the ignorant monk that started the whole Anno Domino thing, was cluelessto that fact - it is not PC to use “CE.” ask Vlad “the historian” how many archaeological journals use “AD.”
And which "Holocaust" would that be? The whole language of holocaust denial is biased. I have had many conversations on this subject both in Israel and outside Israel and there is never an acknowledgment by Jews of any holocaust other than Hitler's atrocities committed against the Jews.
As bad as that was, and there is no argument that it wasn't horrendous, it wasn't an isolated incident nor even the worst example in the 20th century. There is never a mention of an equal number of Catholics, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, and disabled killed. Stalin killed more that three times as many as perished at Hitler's hand and Mao killed more than six times as many.
So when you say holocaust, which one are you referring to and are you denying all of the others?
“Read the actual documents and communications, including those of the church. They are available for research. It is exactly what happened.”
I have read many of them and they prove you wrong.
“As I said, unless you can read these, you have nothing but more garbage to offer.”
I can read many of them. I have no reason to believe you can read any of them. Again, as i said in post 99 “You, of course, present no evidence for your claims and you directly contradict BN - the very book you laid claim to.”
So, you apparently can’t read any of the sources, and you can’t apparently comprehend the book which you tout either.
“The folks who came up with the Gregorian calendar did.”
False. Romance language countries did not use Norse or Germanic names for the days of the week.
“CE- “Common Era” is the term Jews use to reference the Gregorian. It does not have a “PC” -politically correct meaning for us. Jews do not believe in Jesus as a deity.”
You use the CE/BCE usage for EXACTLY the same reason the PC crowd does.
If you can make that statement, then I know one of 2 things:
You are a liar, or, you have a serious comprehension problem.
Well, it's been about 20 generations since the Expulsion. So I'd guess that nearly every Spaniard has some Jewish blood. Franco conveyed as much to the Nazis when the Nazis asked that he institute the Nuremberg laws.
But some of the studies linking Jews to present-day Spaniards are just bad science. One study, for instance, focused on Y-chromosomes and assumed that every Spaniard with certain Y-chromosomes are descended from Jews. But, in actuality, those particular chromosomes aren't particularly Jewish, and could just as easily be traced to other Middle Eastern groups who formed part of the ancestrial Spanish population, such as the Phoenicians/Carthaginians.
It may have been Pope Paul's opinion. But it was NOT the opinion of the Inquisition in Spain or Portugal. Indeed, if anything, the POINT of the Inquisition was to ferret out, try, and frequently torture insincere converts. Not surprisingly, that population consisted overwhelmingly of Jews who had been forcibly converted, or who had been raised by parents who were forcibly converted.
“You use the CE/BCE usage for EXACTLY the same reason the PC crowd does.”
Actually, no. It is done because Judaism forbids the acceptance, or the belief in other deities. Nor, are we to worship any representation/image of G-D, as that would be idolatry. “Thou shalt not make any graven image.” If you worship at a statue of Jesus, then you are worshipping at an idol. That is an abomination before HaShem’s eyes. Remember the 10 Commandments? To use “B.C.” would be participating in those beliefs.
Jews were commanded by HaShem to be separate, and not accept the ways of the pagans and other nations. “Be ye separate.” And, that is why Jews do not use it.
........No? Then who did these sadistic acts? Hindus? Buddhists?.......Little green men in flying saucers, the Martians?????
Christians did them. Christian mobs, Christian kings, Christian clergy in some cases. Did you think I was disputing that?
And please, no more of the They were just following orders......enough already......
Who said that??? I never said that nor would I.
It may make you and your fellow Anti-Semitic revisionists better
That is a disgusting libel. As I've said on this thread, I *married into a Jewish family*. I'm well aware of the sensitivities here, but I'm not going to give bad history a pass simply to placate someone's sensibilities. ChicagoHebrew had the decency to acknowledge the factual correctness of what we said about the jurisdiction of the Inquisition, even as he took issue with the implications of it. That's the kind of discussion we *should* be having here...because that kind of discussion helps us figure out what happened, what went wrong, and how to behave toward each other today.
But heres the real question, and the only one that really matters in all of this:How to you think G-D actually feels about it?
I believe in a God of unutterable love who felt with a burning heart the suffering of each and every Spanish Jew and Converso--who loved each and every one of them more than they even loved themselves. I believe that every single needless cruelty inflicted on them by Christians earned its practitioner either a one way trip to Hell or a suitable atonement for it in this life or the next.
“If you can make that statement, then I know one of 2 things:
You are a liar, or, you have a serious comprehension problem.”
That’s all you got left: false accusations.
Remember: You, of course, present no evidence for your claims and you directly contradict BN - the very book you laid claim to.
“Actually, no. It is done because Judaism forbids the acceptance, or the belief in other deities.”
Jesus is not another deity. He is of the same spiritual substance as His Father, YHWH. You use CE and BCE for EXACTLY the same reasons the PC crowd do.
“Nor, are we to worship any representation/image of G-D, as that would be idolatry. Thou shalt not make any graven image. If you worship at a statue of Jesus, then you are worshipping at an idol. That is an abomination before HaShems eyes. Remember the 10 Commandments? To use B.C. would be participating in those beliefs.”
False. B.C. stands for “Before Christ”. In itself it is not an acknowledgement of Christ’s divinity. Anno Domini is different. Once again we see how little you know.
“Jews were commanded by HaShem to be separate, and not accept the ways of the pagans and other nations. Be ye separate. And, that is why Jews do not use it.”
Except that we are not pagans and Jesus was most definitely not a pagan either. Since Jesus is God it is not wrong to honor Him.
I am not disputing that was the point of the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal. That’s what the Inquisition did...ferret out heresy.
And I am not a historian of the era, but I’m a bit wary about a claim that *most* Jews were forcibly converted, especially since forcing a person to accept Baptism has *always* been against the canons of the Church. If you have hard numbers on that, I’d certainly like to see them.
I know what B.C. is. The post was about why Jews do not use B.C.
Judaism does not believe in “Jesus Christ.” To Jews, he is indeed, another deity.
To you, he is not. But to a Jew, he is.
We do not believe Jesus is HaShem. To Jews he is not G-D. So, Jews do not use B.C.
To Jews, and according to Jewish law, to use B.C. would indeed be such an acknowledgement.
And if you worship at a statue of deity, no matter which one, that makes you an idolator. And that, in Judaism, is an abomination before HaShem. If you believe in the 10 Commandments, and you make a graven image representing G-D, or worship at one, then, you are committing an abomination before G-D.
How little I know?.... Really?....Are you now presuming to teach Judaism? Are you presuming to tell us that you are an authority on Torah Halacha?
“I know what B.C. is. The post was about why Jews do not use B.C.”
And it’s still wrong.
“Judaism does not believe in Jesus Christ.”
Jews do not believe Jesus existed?
“To Jews, he is indeed, another deity.”
So, you are saying Jews believe Jesus is divine? Notice how you did not use the phrase “false deity”?
“To you, he is not. But to a Jew, he is.”
Actually, no, I believe He is divine. You too are saying He is as well. Your apparent command of logic is almost as bad as your command of English.
“We do not believe Jesus is HaShem.”
Which would still not have anything to do with “B.C.”. Also, since Christ made the era common (i.e. Common Era) everytime someone uses C.E. and B.C.E. it is still a reference to Christ.
“To Jews he is not G-D. So, Jews do not use B.C.”
So is the Common Era God? After all, you’re saying you don’t use B.C. - which does not ever mention God nor does it say Christ is God - because you don’t believe Christ is God. Thus, logically, if you use Common Era, you must believe Common Era is God. You worship a dating system?
“To Jews, and according to Jewish law, to use B.C. would indeed be such an acknowledgement.”
R-I-G-H-T, so using “Common Era” must be an acknowledgement that Common Era is God.
“And if you worship at a statue of deity,..”
Worship AT? Please explain how someone can “worship at” something? Since you - using your own logic - worship a dating system you probably really believe people can “worship at” something.
“no matter which one, that makes you an idolator. And that, in Judaism, is an abomination before HaShem. If you believe in the 10 Commandments, and you make a graven image representing G-D, or worship at one, then, you are committing an abomination before G-D.”
None of which has anything to do with “B.C.” since it is not a statue and it is not worshipped.
“How little I know?.... Really?....Are you now presuming to teach Judaism?”
Nope. I’ll just let you make how little you know and understand clear in post after post.
“Are you presuming to tell us that you are an authority on Torah Halacha?”
Buddy, you don’t appear to be an authority about much of anything.
“Buddy, you dont appear to be an authority about much of anything.”
Mmmmmmm...... maybe. But one thing I do know is an Anti-Semitic Revisionist with an agitated need to antagonize, when I see one.
"Actually its not my side is always right, vlad, pontiac and claud pointed out that this happened, but the image of this has been exaggerated."Don't know about others, but vlad clearly has an axe to grind. Just read the last 50 comments on this thread. I do remember him on one of the old threads defending the burning of heretics by the catholic church. That it had every right to punish apostasy with death and so on.
>> You use the CE/BCE usage for EXACTLY the same reason the >> PC crowd does.
Pray tell what “the reason” is. What are you insinuating?
Which is why I rarely come here anymore. Time better spent davening and studying Torah than attempting to be a light to those who thrive living in the dark.
What is referred to as “The Holocaust”, or HaShoah, the horrific act of genocide with the intention of exterminating the entire population of Jewish people, is but one of many attempts by many, over thousands of years, to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth. Yes, no question that massacres and acts of genocide took place against a variety of people. The genocide of the Armenians by the Turks is enough to make anyone sick.
However, there is not one single group, world wide, and in the history of that world, that has been singled out for persecution and extermination, as many times, as the Jewish people. That is a fact. And, in approx. 90 different countries. That too, is a fact.
We find it incredulous, in view of this history, that anyone would even have the nerve to say that we are playing a “victim card”, or that these events “were not that bad”, or that it “never happened” or attempt to revise documented history....And, we do know where such sentiments come from - pure hatred.
When people stop trying to kill us off, convert us to their beliefs, or prevent us from living ours, then, and only then, will we have no need to continually remind the world that they need to change these barbaric, sick minded behaviors, and the hatred that spawn such evil.
Until then, you will not stop hearing it, nor will we stop reminding everyone of it. To deny what happened means that you have not changed, you have not learned, and you are quite capable of doing it again.
So, when we say “The Holocaust”, we are referring to the evil that was, once again, perpetrated against the Jewish people. We will never be intimidated into silence about it either. We have no shame in vocalizing it.
The shame is upon those who perpetrated it, agreed with it, and those who stood by, allowed it, while saying nothing. It is also upon those who try to deny it, revise it and lessen it. It is written that HaShem will curse them, and has a very special place in Hell for such people.
“I will Bless those that Bless You, and I will Curse those who Curse you.”
Yup, however look around at the rest of the world in the 1500s and it sucked pretty much the same elsewhere.
If you look at it through today's lenses we all agree that it was horrible, utterly. Yet it was not the big monster made out to be.
During the war, Franco remained silent in regard to Jewish matters and Spain became an unlikely escape route and haven for thousands of Jews. They were mainly from Western Europe, fleeing deportation to concentration camps from occupied France, but also Sephardic Jews from Eastern Europe, especially in Hungary. Trudy Alexy refers to the "absurdity" and "paradox of refugees fleeing the Nazis' Final Solution to seek asylum in a country where no Jews had been allowed to live openly as Jews for over four centuries."interesting
Throughout World War II, Spanish diplomats of the Franco government, as well as diplomats from Switzerland, Sweden, Portugal and the Vatican, extended their protection to Eastern European Jews, especially in Hungary. Jews claiming Spanish ancestry were provided with Spanish documentation without being required to prove their case and either left for Spain or survived the war with the help of their new legal status in occupied countries.
.....Spain began giving citizenship to Sephardic Jews in Greece, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania; many Ashkenazic Jews also managed to be included, as did some non-Jews. The Spanish head of mission in Budapest, Ángel Sanz Briz, may have saved thousands of Ashkenazim in Hungary by granting them Spanish citizenship, placing them in safe houses, and teaching them minimal Spanish so they could pretend to be Sephardim, at least to someone who did not know Spanish. The Spanish diplomatic corps was performing a balancing act: Alexy conjectures that the number of Jews they took in was limited by how much German hostility they were willing to engender
and I never knew that Franco told Shicklegruber that...
True -- and the term "Phoenician" is what we Indo-Europeans call them (an exonym) while they called themselves Kanaan or Canaanites -- a related Semitic population to the Israelites
I think the only test for Judaism that is verified (afaik) is the one for the cohen genes, right? They used that to trace the ethiopian jews and the bene-israelies from Maharashtra in India i think
if we're talking about the past, then it is the dead past with old sins and errors. The only times I've read him "defending" this was when he pointed out that in England both sides did their persecutions...where he said Thankfully the days of ... persecution of Catholics ended long ago... They no longer burn our convents or attack our churches as they once did. -- at the same time he pointed out that it was the way in which the secular governments meted out punishment and heresy was then a secular crime as it associated itself with treason against the state.
Also do note it is not on the same level to compare the atrocities of the 40s with that of the Inqusition. Even in sheer numbers —> 3,000 were killed over a 300 YEAR period, that’s bad, but none of those were Jews, they were converts and this was 2% of those accused and yes, they have a TRIAL. You may argue this was not as fair as a modern day trial, yet 98% were released and people actually preferred to go to the inquisition trials rather than the state ones (lesser of two evils). So, no, the two events cannot be spoken of as being anywhere on par.
“Mmmmmmm...... maybe. But one thing I do know is an Anti-Semitic Revisionist with an agitated need to antagonize, when I see one.”
Oh, there it is: when all else fails, call someone an anti-semite. Sorry, but that is not only not true, but it makes you look like a fool. Telling the truth about the inquisition is not anti-semitic. The one has nothing to do with the other. Thanks for tacitly admitting that you can’t make an argument about the topic at hand.
Read the thread.
“Don’t know about others, but vlad clearly has an axe to grind. Just read the last 50 comments on this thread.”
If I have an axe to grind it is this: over the last decade I have noticed that online posters have routinely opined about the inquisition even though they almost always have NEVER READ EVEN A SINGLE BOOK OR SCHOLARLY ARTICLE ABOUT THE INQUISITION. They know essentially nothing but fables, myths, half-truths, misrepresentations, misinterpretations, distortions and outright lies. That’s why - in many threads where the inquisition comes up - I often ask what books these people have read. Invariably they have NEVER READ EVEN A SINGLE BOOK OR SCHOLARLY ARTICLE ABOUT THE INQUISITION. In instances where they have read a book - which can’t be more than two or three percent of cases - they can’t get the thesis of the author right, can’t discuss the contents of that books, and often directly contradict it! It is the ignorance and lack of common sense that shocke me most. They opine and opine and never have anything to back up what they claim. It’s bizarre. They make claims that directly contradict every fact we have and every modern historian we know of, such as: the inquisition forcibly converted people through torture; everyone was tortured; torture was really common; millions were executed; everyone was terrified of the inquisition; the inquisition retarded the growth of entire nations; there are massive conspiracies to keep the facts about the inquisition quiet, etc. It boggles the mind that people could be so obviously wrong ACCORDING TO EVERY REPUTABLE HISTORIAN ALIVE.
” I do remember him on one of the old threads defending the burning of heretics by the catholic church.”
Untrue. You can’t possibly remember me saying something I never said. I have never said the Catholic Church ever once burned a heretic.
Franco was a great man...but like Pinochet, the Left love to skewer him at every opportunity.
Again, it was a holocaust, and not even the biggest one in terms of numbers or percentages. Tragic? Yes. Isolated? No.
Would you fight to the death to prevent its recurrence? If so, what are you doing about the millions of Christians in the Sudan who are being killed today simply because of their religion as an example?
“Denial of the persecution of Jews in Spain from 1000-1600 CE is on-par with holocaust denial.”
When a Jew accuses you of “holocaust denial”, you know he has lost the argument.
“Would you fight to the death to prevent its recurrence? “
If so, what are you doing about the millions of Christians in the Sudan who are being killed today simply because of their religion as an example?
The very same thing they are doing for Israel.
“Midda Kinnegid Midda”
I once had this very conversation with an employee in Tel Aviv. She stated, in no uncertain terms, that the US did not do enough to stop "the holocaust". When I told her that over 360,000 American's died, including some of my relatives to stop Hitler she said "it obviously wasn't enough. When these things happen all of humanity must respond." When I then asked her what she and Israel were doing about the Sudan she gave me the same hypocritical answer you just did.
It was the US that sent ships with Refuge Jewish children back to Germany and directly into the gas chamber. FDR refused to let them in. Groups of Rabbis, after raising the money themselves within the Jewish community went to the president and told him that it would not even burden the tax payers- the Jewish people would support them. And still he said no. Those children died, as did the people on other ships.
Those American soldiers did not fight to free Jews. Although there were plenty of Jewish soldiers who died among them. My mother’s cousin died in the Battle of the Bulge. They did not go there to free the Jewish people from the camps. So, don’t even try to insinuate it.
More revisionist history. The ship you are referring to was the German registered MS St. Louis. It had a total passenger manifest of 937 passengers, seven of which were not Jews. The ship's initial destination was Cuba and when Cuba denied the passengers entry on tourist visas because the ship attempted to dock in Florida. It was denied by the US for the same reasons. It eventually returned to Europe where 200 passengers offloaded in England and the rest in Antwerp which had not yet been occupied by Germany.
The really sad thing is that the ship was informed that the Dominican Republic would accept up to 100,000 Jewish refugees but declined the offer.
19 year old soldiers do not set policy and the motives of the armed forces are rarely considered when the decision to fight is made so don't give me crap that we should be ashamed of our sacrifices because we didn't single out the Jews as the cause. The US military fought totalitarianism in that war and a dozen others. We fought for the liberty of others. That is a lot more than can be said for the IDF.
Roosevelt like the Democrat party today was antisemitic. You are going to have to ask yourself why he maintained greater than 90% of the Jewish vote even after that sad episode.
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