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'Extraordinary' genetic make-up of north-east Wales men
BBC ^ | 19 July 2011 | BBC

Posted on 07/23/2011 7:26:30 PM PDT by Palter

Experts are asking people from north-east Wales to provide a DNA sample to discover why those from the area carry rare genetic make-up.

So far, 500 people have taken part in the study which shows 30% of men carry an unusual type of Y chromosome, compared to 1% of men elsewhere the UK.

Common in Mediterranean men, it was initially thought to suggest Bronze Age migrants 4,000 years ago.

Sheffield University scientists explain the study at Wrexham Science Festival. 'Quite extraordinary'

A team of scientists, led by Dr Andy Grierson and Dr Robert Johnston, from the University of Sheffield is trying to find out how and why this has come about.

Dr Grierson is leading the talk at Glyndŵr University on Tuesday and wants to speak to people with ancestry in the region to discover what is known about their family history - and to provide them with an opportunity to contribute a DNA sample to the project.

"The number of people in north-east Wales with this genetic make-up is quite extraordinary," he said.

"This type of genetic make-up is usually found in the eastern Mediterranean which made us think that there might have been strong connections between north-east Wales and this part of Europe somewhere in the past.

"But this appears not to be the case, so we're still looking to find out why it's happened and what it reveals about the history of the region."

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: History; Science
KEYWORDS: bronzeage; dna; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh
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To: Palter; AlmaKing; Polybius; null and void; Hawthorn; Domestic Church; catfish1957
Palter quoting article: "Common in Mediterranean men, it was initially thought to suggest Bronze Age migrants 4,000 years ago."

quoting further:

"This type of genetic make-up is usually found in the eastern Mediterranean which made us think that there might have been strong connections between north-east Wales and this part of Europe somewhere in the past.

But this appears not to be the case, so we're still looking to find out why it's happened and what it reveals about the history of the region."

The article gives no explanation for why their original assumptions of 4,000 year old, Bronze Age -- think Stone Henge -- connections are now rejected.

Careful DNA analysis might suggest when those connections were first made, and this in turn provide the beginnings of understanding.

I would suggest that, without some solid evidence to the contrary, researchers should not automatically rule out Bronze Age.

There was more going on in those times than we really understand today.

51 posted on 07/24/2011 10:31:49 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: null and void
I've worked with a lot of Indians over the years. It's not just a language thing. We do think in the same patterns. The engineering solutions to problems are indistinguishable. Solutions that Chinese, Vietnamese, Philippine or Japanese engineers come up with, although perfectly valid, just 'feel' different. Don't know why.

India was invaded by the Aryans of Central Asia, who likely had a lot in common with the Celtic people who went on to settle Europe.

52 posted on 07/24/2011 10:47:54 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
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To: Palter

Is this genetic marker what causes them to spell ‘funny’?

;^)


53 posted on 07/24/2011 10:50:25 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: Hawthorn

You’re right - Albanian is missing. I’ve read that it its own, distinct branch.


54 posted on 07/24/2011 10:55:21 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: BroJoeK
"The article gives no explanation for why their original assumptions of 4,000 year old, Bronze Age -- think Stone Henge -- connections are now rejected. "

Tests Reveal Amesbury Archer "King Of Stonehenge' Was A Settler From The Alps

55 posted on 07/24/2011 11:32:42 AM PDT by blam
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To: PapaBear3625
"India was invaded by the Aryans of Central Asia, who likely had a lot in common with the Celtic people who went on to settle Europe. "

Tocharians

"The Tocharians were the easternmost speakers of an Indo-European language in antiquity, inhabiting the Tarim basin in what is now Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, northwestern People's Republic of China. Their unique culture spanned from the 1st millennium BCE to the end of the 1st millennium CE. Their language is called Tocharian."

"The Knights With The Long Swords"

This is the Gansu Province of China and a handful of Caucasian only graveyards there were still being used into the 1300's. (The Chinese didn't show up in this region until about 200BC...they were the late-comers)

56 posted on 07/24/2011 11:49:12 AM PDT by blam
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To: PapaBear3625
India was invaded by the Aryans of Central Asia, who likely had a lot in common with the Celtic people who went on to settle Europe.

Posting such an idea can get you seriously flamed on some sites.

There is a whole group of Indians who for some obscure reason believe that saying the Aryans invaded India from Central Asia in the distant past is somehow insulting to India. They instead prefer a scenario where the Aryan languages originated in India and went west from there.

This is despite the fairly obvious fact that we have archaelogical and historical evidence of dozens of invasions of India from the northwest and exactly none going the other way.

I've never understood why they react this way, as the most common theories have the Italics, Greeks, Celts and other Indo-Europeans originating outside (western) Europe just as much as they do outside India.

57 posted on 07/24/2011 12:43:00 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: blam
blam: "Tests Reveal Amesbury Archer "King Of Stonehenge' Was A Settler From The Alps"

Thanks for the interesting link. I note your long interest in the subject.

Somewhere I once read about Bronze Age trade between Britain and the Mediterranean, even Minoans of Crete.
Their interest is said to have been British tin.

Here is a link showing Bronze Age connections between Crete, Spain and Britain.

None of which, of course, proves anything about Welsh DNA.
It only suggests that Bronze Age connections should not be ruled out, a priori.

Andelusia, Spain, Bronze Age fortress:

Minoan ships:

58 posted on 07/24/2011 12:51:59 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
Thanks, a very interesting link.

Here is an excellent book that I highly recommend:

The Origins Of The British


59 posted on 07/24/2011 1:55:58 PM PDT by blam
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To: Bon mots

hysterical


60 posted on 07/24/2011 4:05:46 PM PDT by Mercat
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To: James C. Bennett; Hawthorn
You’re right - Albanian is missing. I’ve read that it its own, distinct branch.

As is Euskara, I believe.

61 posted on 07/24/2011 8:14:28 PM PDT by annie laurie (All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost)
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To: annie laurie

Basque cannot belong on that tree. It’s non-IE.


62 posted on 07/24/2011 8:24:48 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

I don’t think that anyone knows exactly WHAT it is (non-IE or otherwise), unless there have been some new research findings that I haven’t heard about, yet :) Since it doesn’t really “belong” anywhere (again, last I heard), and it’s a language of Europe, it came to mind. Just wanted to throw it out there for those interested :)

Another missing language is Afrikaans, which has now evolved far enough from Dutch that it is considered a separate language, rather than just a dialect of Dutch.


63 posted on 07/24/2011 8:33:32 PM PDT by annie laurie (All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost)
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To: martin_fierro

Could you please add me to your list?

Refreshed = E1b1b1


64 posted on 07/24/2011 9:17:13 PM PDT by refreshed
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To: annie laurie

Good point!


65 posted on 07/25/2011 10:12:55 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Palter

The answer is easy: Tin.

Tin, to make bronze, was hard to obtain. Wales and Corwall are sources of tin from ancient times. Traders from the Med came to Wales (and Cornwall) to obtain tin and left their genetic legacy there.


66 posted on 07/25/2011 10:29:02 AM PDT by Little Ray (Best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Sherman Logan; PapaBear3625

There are a few interesting theories being thrown about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory


67 posted on 07/26/2011 2:56:32 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Little Ray; BroJoeK
The answer is easy: Tin..

We have a winner!!! Sorry I was tardy, I was out of town. But Tin is the answer. Tin was very rare in the ancient world and highly sought after. Archaeologist are still searching for the early sources of tin used in the Early and Middle Bronze age because they think that Cornwall and Wales are just to far away. Actually tin is not really used purposely (so we think) until about 2000 BC. Bronze made before that is alloyed with arsenic or the tin is a bi-product of the copper.

Think of this, the article says that the genetics go back to 2000 BC, the start of the pre-palatial Minoan period, and tin is mined at the same time. Interesting that the Minoans or some other people may have went as far as Wales for tin.

68 posted on 07/26/2011 5:22:13 PM PDT by fatez ("If you're going through Hell, keep going." Winston Churchill)
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To: James C. Bennett

Interesting, but nuts.

The entire history of Eurasia (up to the last 500 years or so, when firearms finally gave civilized peoples the ability to effectively defend themselves) has consisted of invasions of the fertile and civilized south, west and east periphery by nomads from the dry and inhospitable center. (The northern periphery was the most inhospitable area of all.)

The Out of India theory envisions people intentionally leaving fertile and comfortable lands to invade dry and inhospitable ones.

Not gonna happen.


69 posted on 07/26/2011 7:45:15 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
"The Out of India theory envisions people intentionally leaving fertile and comfortable lands to invade dry and inhospitable ones."

Australia, Iceland, Siberia...

;^)

70 posted on 07/26/2011 8:14:58 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Polybius; SunkenCiv; blam; All

If this genetic marker is 4,000 years old, then it would have been pre Roman. Was this an area of Wales that could have supplied tin to be alloyed with copper to create the Bronze Age. Perhaps ancient eastern Mediterranean peoples were traveling here by boat to either mine tin, or to trade for tin. An while there, enjoying the local female companionship. They could have had a settlement with extensive mining and commercial activity centered around the importance of the tin trade.


71 posted on 08/02/2011 9:59:49 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: All
They are talking about the Balkan EV13 marker which is very common in Southeast Europe. This marker has been found at significant amounts in certain regions of the UK including the old Roman trading town of Abergele situated on the northeast region of Wales.

"Roman soldiers in BritainSignificant frequencies of E-V13 have also been observed in towns in Wales, England and Scotland. The old trading town of Abergele on the northern coast of Wales in particular showed 7 out of 18 local people tested were in this lineage (approximately 40%), as reported in Weale et al. (2002). Bird (2007) attributes the overall presence of E-V13 in Great Britain, especially in areas of high frequency, to settlement during the 1st through 4th centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula. Bird proposes a connection to the modern region encompassing Kosovo, eastern Serbia, northern Republic of Macedonia and northwestern Bulgaria (a region corresponding to the Roman province of Moesia Superior), which was identified by Peričic et al. (2005) as harboring the highest frequency worldwide of this sub-clade.[Note 11]"

72 posted on 10/18/2012 12:20:17 PM PDT by apro
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To: Palter

bm


73 posted on 10/18/2012 12:21:15 PM PDT by Vision ("Did I not say to you that if you would believe, you would see the glory of God?" John 11:40)
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