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The no-kids-allowed movement is spreading
Shine via Yahoo! ^ | Wednesday, July 27, 2011 | Piper Weiss

Posted on 07/27/2011 12:00:44 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows

What's the matter with kids today and why doesn't anyone want them around? In June, Malaysia Airlines banned babies from many of their first class cabins, prompting other major airlines to consider similar policies.

-snip-

Earlier this month, McDain's, a Pittsburgh area restaurant that banned kids under 6 became a mascot for the no-kids-zone movement.

According to a Pittsburgh local news poll, more than half of area residents were in favor of the ban. And now big business is paying attention.

"Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing," writes Robert Klara in an article on the child-free trend in AdWeek.

Klara points to Leavethembehind.com, a travel website for kid-free vacations, with a massive list of yoga retreats, luxury resorts and bargain hotels around the world that ban children.

(Excerpt) Read more at shine.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Food; Society; Travel
KEYWORDS: childrearing; children; kids; napl; parenting
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Slings and Arrows
Brat bans could well be the next frontier in destination and leisure-product marketing

If we want to go to a beach resort, my wife and I go to either Sandals' or Couples' resorts, which do not allow children. Another we frequent is the Hilton in Key Largo, which has an adult only pool. I not only want peace and quiet but don't want to worry about what is in the pool water.

51 posted on 07/27/2011 12:33:43 PM PDT by jdub (A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.)
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To: Slings and Arrows
I support the right of business to be child-free however it would not affect my doing business with them either way.

I live in a odd area of the world because I rarely see a out-of-control kids. There was a little tike running around last Saturday between the tables at the ice cream shop. He made a half a round before dad caught him up and said in a low but firm voice, "ok, that's enough bud. We don't do that here."

Kid went and sat down and ate his ice cream.

Those kinds of kids I have no problem with.

I think if I ran into some of the horror stories other people do I would have a different opinion.

52 posted on 07/27/2011 12:33:46 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (I have no time to worry about turbot, a parrot is eating my house)
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To: metmom
I can understand the desire to be in a quiet, brat free environment, but this ban on children in certain places is an alarming warning signal of the condition of our culture and society.

Immigrants and the poor don't share the selfish "me first" perspective of the privileged and growing "child-free" culture.

That's not good news for anybody, but that's the direction we're headed.

53 posted on 07/27/2011 12:34:02 PM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Thank you, Dr. Spock, and the Montessori Method! Both of them helped set child-rearing back to neanderthal days. Kids are not “Buddies”, nor are parents “Friends”, and the lawyers who push those attributes for their clients are the enemy!


54 posted on 07/27/2011 12:34:54 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: married21

>>If old farts want my kids’ social security contribution they should stop whining about the mere presence of children<<

I think you’re being a bit dramatic.
I have NO problem with child-free establishments and I’ve raised four kids.

No one is going to be whining about the mere presence of your children unless your children don’t know how to behave and you do nothing about it.

I’d rather take my kids where they are going to learn HOW to behave. Dennys or Big Boy are perfect for little kids. You want to go to a fine restaurant when you have toddlers? Get a sitter. Same with movie theaters unless the movie is rated G.


55 posted on 07/27/2011 12:36:23 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: MayflowerMadam
I think parents are held hostage by their kids, and are terrified of them.

Kids aren't born this way; they are made this way by the parents.

56 posted on 07/27/2011 12:36:41 PM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: davisfh

>The problem is not the children but the parents who allow them to run wild and infringe on the rights of others.

+1.

I don’t have kids (couldn’t, long story) but have no problem with well behaved kids around and even don’t mind when a kid has a temporary fit as long as the parents try to firmly address it. They’re kids and human and won’t always be perfect, I know that.

But there are WAY too many spoiled brats out there whose parents think the sun rises and sets out of their backsides. They are obnoxious and the parents get all huffy and act just as badly if you ask them to try to control their child.


57 posted on 07/27/2011 12:37:43 PM PDT by LizardQueen (The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone.)
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To: CodeToad
That said, considering parents are too lazy to discipline their children anymore

I don't think it's laziness. I think it's more that parents want to be their kids friends.

My Dad is one of my best friends.......I am 49 and it wasn't until I was well into my 30's that it became so.

58 posted on 07/27/2011 12:38:20 PM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Allegra; Slings and Arrows
OK, so I had to look up the real bio.
 
Form your own conclusions. Looks to me as if we were all right.
 
How very "cool" of her to think that dads are cool. How so progressive. 
 
 

 

Piper Weiss

 

Oh, hello. I'm a Senior Features Editor at Shine. My writing has appeared in The New York Daily News, on VH1's BestWeekEver.tv, Glamour, McSweeney's Internet Tendency and New York Magazine. I'm obsessed with cults, cats, Alan Alda, Men Who Look Like Zach Braff, and this video of Elvis.

Born and raised in Manhattan, I currently live in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. In the past year, I helped co-write a comedy on a New York tour-bus, played a disturbed young mother in an award-winning movie called "Without" and launched a column in the back page of Lucky Magazine based on this here blog. With the help of over 100 moms and their kids, I also put together a book version of the site called My Mom Style Icon, in stores May 1, 2011. I also think dads are cool.

Read more...


59 posted on 07/27/2011 12:40:07 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (The views and opinions expressed in this post are true and correct. Deal with it)
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To: Slings and Arrows

“My name is Jeffrey and I’m 4 years old”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs0cYJUqJys


60 posted on 07/27/2011 12:40:39 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Slings and Arrows

Good!


61 posted on 07/27/2011 12:41:53 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (De Oppresso libre!)
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To: CodeToad

>>Wanna bet that little girl is one of those thugs and by the time she is 7 she will have started hitting her biological giver?<<

My husband was a good one for giving in to our oldest daughter when she was a tot. I told him that if you tell her no and then let her do what she wants, it’s a problem at 2. But at 16 she’ll be taking the car keys and crashing your ride. At that point you have no one to blame but yourself.

Little kids, little problems. Big kids, big problems.

And btw, I took over the discipline so now they are well behaved and considerate.


62 posted on 07/27/2011 12:42:51 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: married21
There are too many "snowflakes" loose in society, now. I've seen a good many "Britenys" and "Joshuas" stand there howling because they want Micky Dee's chicken, and Mumsy and Daddy shaking a finger and hissing like a leaky boiler...

It's not about being old and childless. It's about out of control snot gobblers running their parents, and the parents being terrified of trying to correct the worthless little $hits, because some Lib will have the cops with a tazer and DHS Social Workers there in 30 seconds flat. These are the same people who tear apart school playgrounds because little Monstro might scrape her knee on the swing.

This is just another result of the poison of Liberalism.

I could take my three to the 95th in Chicago, and no one knew they were in the room. But they also said, "please," "thank you," and "may I be excused?"

63 posted on 07/27/2011 12:46:16 PM PDT by jonascord (The Drug War Rapes the Constitution.)
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To: Slings and Arrows
None of my kids was ever a problem in restaurants, or in stores for that matter. I prefer social events that include the entire family. I am not one for formal dinner parties and such. I also resent screamers and loudmouths, whether adults or children in restaurants. It takes training and that is sorely lacking in this society for the last couple of generations.

Nowadays most of my socializing is among the Viet Emigré community and with them there is not a social event that does not include the whole family. The kids are well behaved and events are in places with space for the little ones to run and tussle. When it is time for dinner all are in their places and suitably well behaved.If we go to a restaurant there is no play but the kids manage to be appropriate.

My own are grown and gone and I do not resent the presence of other folks' children.

It is no problem for me that establishments make rules that exclude children, or any other groups or individuals. That is the free market which we have been truncating pretty severely for a long time now. Those places are not my personal favorites, though.

64 posted on 07/27/2011 12:47:06 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (Khach hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: MayflowerMadam; CodeToad; Slings and Arrows; All

http://youtu.be/K0vEKzhUPCU

http://youtu.be/0-Mr3irlWIk


65 posted on 07/27/2011 12:47:39 PM PDT by Morgana (I never said a thing.....................)
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To: Slings and Arrows

My husband and I brought our kids on many plane trips, to restaurants, theaters, etc...during their younger days (they are teenagers now).

Exposing them is the only way to teach them. But we had a very strict policy that if they began to act up we would immediately leave. We never had to but they knew we would.

My longest marathon trip was a solo AMC journey from Norfolk to the Middle East with multiple stops along the way—approximately 32 total hours traveling with layovers during which we had to get off the plane so they could fuel and resupply.

Our only nightmarish trip was one in which my 1 y/o son was ill with an ear infection and I was pregnant and suffering from morning/air sickness and actually using the barf bag and as many extras as I could find. Luckily we were at the very rear of the plane and my son’s crying (and my retching) was drowned out by engine noise. My husband won the “husband/father of the year” crown on that trip, for sure!

That said, I completely understand and respect “child free zones”, particularly as I’ve witnessed far too many “my children can do no wrong” indulgent/blind parents who don’t even pay attention to their hellion. Heck I’ve dealt with that type enough at school events and playgroups!!


66 posted on 07/27/2011 12:47:42 PM PDT by GatorGirl (Herman Cain 2012)
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To: Sonny M

It’s funny you say that. I live in NYC and eat in restaurants and rarely see kids. Maybe during the tourist or Christmas season but almost never the rest of the year. Maybe we go to completely different types of restaurants?


67 posted on 07/27/2011 12:49:13 PM PDT by miss marmelstein (Casey Anthony is guilty as hell)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

“This is a logical conclusion for an increasingly hyperindivualistic culture devoted exclusively to pleasure and petty power.”

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

People of today are so selfish and self-centered that half of them are intolerant of others and so a disturbance in a restaurant is considered a debacle instead of just a nuisance. And the other half are so selfish and self-centered that they can’t be bothered to discipline their children!


68 posted on 07/27/2011 12:49:13 PM PDT by Reddy (B.O. stinks)
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To: xsrdx

>>Immigrants and the poor don’t share the selfish “me first” perspective of the privileged and growing “child-free” culture. <<

REALLY?!?
Come on over to my area. We have immigrants of every color and creed. You know who the worst of them are? Eastern Europeans and Islamic Arabs. Their boys are golden and allowed to do what they want. Including trash places.

I’m Polish and you should see these women with their dumplings. It’s crazy. And the way the female teachers are treated by the Islamics is nuts. The Chaldean Arab boys are taught that they are no better than anyone else because of the Christianity in their homes but the Muslim boys are just nasty to women and have no respect for non-Arab property.


69 posted on 07/27/2011 12:50:07 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: All

when I was a kid (60’s and 70’s) the only places we ever went with our parents was a pizza place or a burger joint. If my parents went out, which was a rarity, they got a neighbor to watch us.
Now, going out to eat is not as special and rare and it’s the exception when we go out to see no kids around us and we go to nice restaurants as well as family style.

Given that my kids tend to have their episodes at the most inopportune times, I can totally understand a restaurant testing a “no child” business model and seeing if it works for them. Like the no-smoking restaurants before there was a mandated no smoking policy, we would seek out places that were no-smoking and my parents would seek out places that allowed smoking.
Let the market decide if this works.


70 posted on 07/27/2011 12:51:23 PM PDT by newnhdad
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To: camerongood210

I am old. When I was a child, we were never taken out to eat, except for a drive-in. I think I was 11 or so and my brother was 7 before we were taken to a restaurant. I also remember my parents referring to prime rib as *roast beef* so we wouldn’t ask to order it, too.

Shopping meant we had our hands held by a parent at all times. They picked out our clothing. We were along for sizing, only. Any shenanigans and we were unceremoniously told our next stop was back to the car if we didn’t settle down.

In March, we did our yearly dinner at a top restaurant in our area. We went early to avoid some pending weather. Across from us were 4 adults with an absolutely beautiful 2 or 3-year-old. The kid sat on the floor, playing with an iPad, ran around the set up empty tables, handled the silverware and was, all in all, a brat. Everyone at her table simply smiled at her. Next time, we eat at an adult hour.


71 posted on 07/27/2011 12:51:56 PM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: Slings and Arrows

I don’t mind well-behaved children in restaurants either.

I don’t think it is so much that people don’t like the idea of children in restaurants as it is that people don’t like bad disruptive behavior in restaurants on the part of children whose parents think their brats can do no wrong.

I have been in restaurants where children have been allowed to behave like little animals running wild and trashing the table and their immediate surroundings so that it took one waitress a half-hour just to clean up the mess.


72 posted on 07/27/2011 12:53:05 PM PDT by Sons of Union Vets (No taxation without representation!)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Yours is the only post I agree with the most on this thread. The only thing I would add is that the owner still keeps all private property rights and should be able to ban whom he wants. But, definitely, the adult population has become increasingly hedonistic. More adults want to play and more have more play time.

I don’t believe for a second that kids or parents have gotten worse than some golden era that never existed. My own parents and grandparents have answered this question when I’ve asked. Besides, the so called ‘bad parents’ came from that golden era where every child was disciplined perfectly and no kid stepped out of line.

The things that have changed are the number of kids per family is lower, fewer families, the mother is more likely to be working, and the concept of retirement has come into being. It’s allowed more play time for adults and less forced or voluntary interaction between adults and their children or others’ children.


73 posted on 07/27/2011 12:54:00 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: netmilsmom

I was in a Jersey Shore restaurant recently and the parents had a little kid along. The kid was normally rambuctious: standing up on the chair and occasionally misbehaving. But the parents’ overreaction to the kid was completely uncalled for. Yelling, screaming at him until my teeth rattled and my husband called for the check early, lol! So it works the other way sometimes.


74 posted on 07/27/2011 12:54:55 PM PDT by miss marmelstein (Casey Anthony is guilty as hell)
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To: Responsibility2nd
Did you happen to read this bio?

http://shine.yahoo.com/blog/N6JSYE2M52LEYVQDL42REIMZPM/

About This Author
Piper Weiss, Shine Staff

Subscribe to My Blog »

Oh, hello. I'm a Senior Features Editor at Shine. A former editor at The New York Daily News and VH1 writer, I'm partly responsible for the blog Men Who Look Like Zach Braff. And fully responsible for the blog My Mom The Style Icon -- soon to be a book published by Chronicle in 2011. Because of my clinical neuroses and spelling issues, I will be constantly changing tiny things in this bio. The doctor says that's totally normal.

She makes a perfect 'journalist' too! lol!

75 posted on 07/27/2011 12:55:25 PM PDT by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: CodeToad

I was in a sporting goods store once where a 5 year old had crawled into one of the display tents and was yelling “mom, mom, mom” repeatedly at the top of his lungs. I didn’t see any adults in the immediate vicinity, so when he took a breath to start yelling again, I said, “she left you.” That shut him up. He stuck his head out of the tent, looked around, and quietly said, “mom?”


76 posted on 07/27/2011 12:57:08 PM PDT by Hoffer Rand (There ARE two Americas: "God's children" and the tax payers)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Thirty or forty years ago my wife and I were eating in a very expensive restaurant in Manhattan. There was a couple in there with a or 7 year-old boy. They let the kid run wild and scream “NO!” at them when they asked him to sid down.

The maître d asked them twice to control the boy to no avail. After about 20 minutes a man in a suit I assume was the owner came to the table with the boy by the hand. He asked the couple, “Is this yours?” And pointed to the boy.

The couple nodded. The man then said take him and leave. Your meal is complementary and you owe nothing for the evening. However, do not return. You’re no longer welcome here.”

The couple took the kid and left.

I thought it was the way every restaurant should handle disruptive kids.


77 posted on 07/27/2011 1:01:25 PM PDT by SUSSA
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To: Slings and Arrows

This is the fault of both inconsiderate, over-indulgent parents AND gutless business owners.
.
A considerate person wouldn’t bring their children to restaurants if they are disturbing other diners. And when it comes to inconsiderate parents, business owners should, out of consideration for their other customers, have the wuevos to confront (and if necessary) expel rude parents and their kids.
.
Punishing the good with the bad to avoid confronting the bad is how limp-wristed nannies and liberals deal with a problem.


78 posted on 07/27/2011 1:02:37 PM PDT by fidelis (Zonie and USAF Cold Warrior)
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To: miss marmelstein

>>But the parents’ overreaction to the kid was completely uncalled for. <<

In most states, they would be arrested.


79 posted on 07/27/2011 1:02:52 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: AlmaKing
I too believe in the doctrine that a private property owner has a right to exclude whomever he pleases. Indeed, if one looks, the very definition of property includes the right to exclude others. Egalitarianism has trumped the state guarantee of property security.
80 posted on 07/27/2011 1:03:29 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Slings and Arrows; Allegra; Tijeras_Slim; Jersey Republican Biker Chick

FREERIDER Ping

81 posted on 07/27/2011 1:04:00 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: reformedliberal

I am 25 years old and it sounds like I was raised in a similar fashion. My mom carried a wooden spoon in her purse at all times while we were still younger. She wouldn’t hesitate to pop us a couple of times with the spoon were we to step out of line. My dad would just give us that look that meant, “Keep it up and your backside will have a meeting with my belt when we get home.” He followed through on those threats. My brother has ADHD, or something similar, and I guess that was the overriding factor when it came to his behavior as a kid. They could spank him all they wanted and he never seemed to adjust his behavior. I guess my parents just decided it was best to stay home and let him mature a little. It seemed to have worked.


82 posted on 07/27/2011 1:04:11 PM PDT by camerongood210
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To: Slings and Arrows

Baby Boomers are reaching retirement age en-masse. This is the most selfish generation the USA has seen (my generation). Everything has always been about them. Now that they are empty-nesters and leisure retirees, it is all about them once again. Sure, they are joined by another selfish generation - the Gen-X Dinks, but really this is an issue of the Baby Boomers.

Selfish to the core. It is always ALWAYS only about them. Give me. Mine. Me, me, me, me, me.

Selfish pukes.


83 posted on 07/27/2011 1:05:41 PM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (SP12: They called Reagan "unelectable", too.)
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To: CodeToad
Children need to be socialized in order to learn to be social.

That is the purpose of McDonalds. I used it as a first step restaurant training ground for my kids. When they could behave there, they went to sit-down places like Friendly's and the local diner.

From there, they were ready for the big time, nice restaurants.

84 posted on 07/27/2011 1:07:43 PM PDT by KosmicKitty (WARNING: Hormonally crazed woman ahead!!)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Fear = peace


85 posted on 07/27/2011 1:08:05 PM PDT by The Toll
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To: Hoffer Rand

LOL!


86 posted on 07/27/2011 1:08:27 PM PDT by beaversmom
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To: AlmaKing

How old are you?
Cause let me tell you, parents were much better behaved when I was a kid. Because there was such a thing as shame. People had it.

Now, if someone told a person that his/her kids was misbehaving, that person would feel “disrespected” and go off on you.

Your own parents and grandparents are not everywhere in the country and maybe in their world, parents and kids haven’t changed, but they sure have in mine.


87 posted on 07/27/2011 1:09:27 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: netmilsmom

>>OMG! Have you asked the mom how long she plans to wipe his butt?<<

We have learned not to go there. Just meddling gandparents, you know.


88 posted on 07/27/2011 1:12:08 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free; Carry_Okie

>>This is the most selfish generation the USA has seen (my generation).<<

Bull. Who do you think made them that way? The Greatest Generation. The ones who voted in the massive entitlements that WE now have to pay for.

How about those Free Power Chairs?


89 posted on 07/27/2011 1:14:19 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: metmom
I really don't have any problem with a restaurant, movie theater, store or whatever banning kids. Most of the restaurants I eat in aren't really "kid friendly" to start with, but there have been times where the meal was ruined by a screaming child.

I don't think that airlines should be able to ban children altogether, but I certainly see the appeal of keeping them out of first class and business class.

90 posted on 07/27/2011 1:20:04 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: SUSSA

These “parents” of unruly and out of control children have no choice they expose the rest of adults with the fruit of their loins.

No one, no one will provide baby setting for these little thugs who destroy every thing near them.

The number of us who want to attend, eat, relax sould not have to put up the Doctor Spock imbreds who became old enough to reproduce!


91 posted on 07/27/2011 1:20:50 PM PDT by tiger63
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To: netmilsmom
REALLY?!?

My point was that the wrong people are having the most kids, as reinforced by your post. Too many with money, education and discipline are choosing to remain childless.

92 posted on 07/27/2011 1:23:22 PM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: RobRoy

My nephew in law “needed” his butt wiped until age 7. Now he’s 26 and a complete loser, no job, no desire for a job, never does anything to help around. The later they learn to wipe their own butt literally the longer it takes them to figure it out metaphorically.


93 posted on 07/27/2011 1:26:02 PM PDT by discostu (keep on keeping on)
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To: jdub

“.. don’t want to worry about what is in the pool water”.

It’s in there! You don’t think adults actually go and tinkle in the restroom, do you? LOL!


94 posted on 07/27/2011 1:28:43 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: married21

It’s not the mere presence of children, it’s the presence of hellions whose parents think their parental duty stopped at conception. They’re so prevalent now all kids are assumed guilty until they prove themselves innocent. And they can’t really be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, a restaurant isn’t going to kick people out after they’ve gotten their food and before they’ve paid, stores don’t have the staff to escort every PITA out. How we’ve wound up “dealing” with them is putting up with it and trying to end it quickly, sadly the parents of hellions probably get better service everywhere they go because the businesses want them out. So now there’s a new “deal”, and it sucks for good parents, but it also sucks for the aspirin companies because the rest of us won’t be using as much.


95 posted on 07/27/2011 1:30:17 PM PDT by discostu (keep on keeping on)
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To: SUSSA

Beautiful.


96 posted on 07/27/2011 1:30:32 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: allmendream

Well behaved children are almost never a problem.

&&&
And that is the crux of the matter. Too few parents today take the time to teach their children how to behave.


97 posted on 07/27/2011 1:30:54 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: netmilsmom

“My husband was a good one for giving in to our oldest daughter”.

Yep... the little princess syndrome. Daddy doesn’t want his darling daughter upset with him. Good for you for taking over... what occurs when they are little and not disciplined will only turn worse when they get older. Nip it in the bud when little or pick them up at the police station when they are teens. I, too, have become the “mean Mommy”. I tell them to discuss it with their therapist when they are older. LOL!


98 posted on 07/27/2011 1:32:35 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: Bigg Red
I see parents scrambling to appease a two year old tyrant, will THIS offering please the little one, will THIS concession at last make the child happy?

They live in a “Cryocracy”. It is rather pitiful to see.

Some friends of my dad asked how it was that my brother and I (notoriously bad kids) listened to him and were (comparatively) well behaved. He said “I laugh at them when they cry and don't give them what they want.”.

They said they would give it a try - but after 10 minutes of crying in the car because they wouldn't stop at McDonald's - they gave in. My dad observed “next time you will have to go 20 minutes at least - they know your breaking point.”

They never did train the child. The child trained them.

Pitiful parenting.

99 posted on 07/27/2011 1:37:07 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: Responsibility2nd; Allegra; Bigh4u2

Interesting - in neither bio does it actually say that she’s a parent.

*raised_eyebrow*


100 posted on 07/27/2011 1:37:11 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows (You can't have Ingsoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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