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Deadly Black Death bug hasn't changed, but we have
Associated Press ^ | October 12, 2011 | Seth Borenstein

Posted on 10/12/2011 6:26:05 PM PDT by decimon

WASHINGTON (AP) — Scientists have cracked the genetic code of the Black Death, one of history's worst plagues, and found that its modern day bacterial descendants haven't changed much over 600 years.

Luckily, we have.

>

In devastating the population, it changed the human immune system, basically wiping out people who couldn't deal with the disease and leaving the stronger to survive, said study co-author Hendrik Poinar of McMaster University in Ontario.

>

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Health/Medicine; History; Science
KEYWORDS: epidemics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; pandemics; plagues

1 posted on 10/12/2011 6:26:09 PM PDT by decimon
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To: SunkenCiv; neverdem; DvdMom; grey_whiskers; Ladysmith; Roos_Girl; Silentgypsy; conservative cat; ...

Flea bitten ping.


2 posted on 10/12/2011 6:27:08 PM PDT by decimon
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To: decimon

I’ve only known yo a short time, Decimon. but I certainly notice the change.


3 posted on 10/12/2011 6:30:06 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: decimon

It has changed the White House!


4 posted on 10/12/2011 6:31:44 PM PDT by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: bigheadfred

Adapt or die, BHF. Surely you ARE NOT suggesting Islam is going to adapt?

Ah, no, man. Be cool. They are going to die.


5 posted on 10/12/2011 6:32:32 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: decimon

Whups. Not “yo”—”yu”.


6 posted on 10/12/2011 6:33:44 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: bigheadfred

Is “yu” like a “Yute?”


7 posted on 10/12/2011 6:37:13 PM PDT by Cyber Liberty (Cain = National Sales Tax; Perry = Amnesty for Illegals; Romney = Obamacare forever. Who's left?)
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To: decimon

In before screenshots from Mony Python And The Holy Grail.


8 posted on 10/12/2011 6:38:51 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: bigheadfred
I’ve only known yo a short time, Decimon. but I certainly notice the change.

The fleas are to blame.

9 posted on 10/12/2011 6:40:11 PM PDT by decimon
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To: decimon

I would consider this a successful adaptation.


10 posted on 10/12/2011 6:40:23 PM PDT by allmost
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To: Cyber Liberty

Only if you are Chinese and smoke rope.


11 posted on 10/12/2011 6:41:15 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: decimon

Related?

New Light on the Black Death

http://www.amazon.com/Light-Black-Death-Mike-Baillie/dp/0752435981/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318399002&sr=1-2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Baillie


12 posted on 10/12/2011 6:43:32 PM PDT by LucyT
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To: decimon

And here yu seem so free. A paragon, a symbol. Not a symbiont. Am I really talking to a yu? Or talking to a flea?


13 posted on 10/12/2011 6:50:04 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: decimon

Interesting that one of the articles on this Black Death Plague DNA stated that it was not connected with the Justinian Plague that killed 100 million and threw the West into the Dark Ages. It did, however, start in Western China.


14 posted on 10/12/2011 6:50:21 PM PDT by JimSEA (The future ain't what it used to be.)
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To: allmost
I would consider this a successful adaptation.

I like it. I guess there could be some downside not yet realized but it's hard to imagine what would be worse than losing a third of the population to a horrid disease.

15 posted on 10/12/2011 6:53:18 PM PDT by decimon
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To: LucyT
Related?

I don't think so. This guy seems to be arguing that it came to us like in that movie about the pod people. ;-)

16 posted on 10/12/2011 6:58:00 PM PDT by decimon
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To: decimon

So many of us died. Some of us lived.


17 posted on 10/12/2011 6:58:31 PM PDT by allmost
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To: decimon

Natural selection leading to the evolution of resistant traits in humans? Say it ain’t so! /s


18 posted on 10/12/2011 7:05:50 PM PDT by archaicoldschool (.)
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To: decimon
basically wiping out people who couldn't deal with the disease

So marxism can theoretically be exterminated through bio-engineering.

Finally, a solution.

19 posted on 10/12/2011 7:10:04 PM PDT by Rome2000 (OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST CRYPTO-MUSLIM)
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To: decimon

This line of reasoning doesn’t come up nearly as often as it should.

I’ve read countless journals in which it is stated that organism X causes death in y% of its victims, and the analysis stops there. My question has always been, what is it about the victims that caused them to die? What enabled the survivors to live? But I never see research designed to answer those questions.


20 posted on 10/12/2011 7:20:24 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom

Read the Bible much? Probably not so much GOVERNMENT FUNDED research there. But seek for the answer where the answer lies.


21 posted on 10/12/2011 7:26:38 PM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: Rome2000
So marxism can theoretically be exterminated through bio-engineering.

Through abortion, the left is actively cleaning the gene pool of genes responsible for the spectrum of traits that cause leftism. Unfortunately, that cleaning of the gene pool comes at a high cost.

22 posted on 10/12/2011 7:29:42 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: decimon

I said the very same thing about the 1917 influenza pandemic and was scoffed and laughed at. I wonder if I was right.


23 posted on 10/12/2011 7:38:11 PM PDT by Oratam
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To: archaicoldschool
It ain't so.

Apparently about 2/3 of the population already had the resistant traits.

If they had had to wait for the resistant traits to "evolve", then mortality in the exposed population would have been nearer 3/3.

24 posted on 10/12/2011 7:46:50 PM PDT by ExGeeEye (I have been called intolerant. It's true. I refuse to tolerate the intolerable.)
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To: ExGeeEye

No 1/3 already had resistance, 2/3 died leaving the the 1/3 “strongest” in relation to this selection pressure to survive as the “fittest” . Evolution was a combination of the variation that led to the resistance coupled with the selection pressure of the disease acting on the entire population leaving only the resistant population to procreate and pass along their resistance to the next generation.


25 posted on 10/12/2011 8:11:23 PM PDT by archaicoldschool (.)
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To: archaicoldschool

Oops! 2/3 had,1/3 died,2/3 left


26 posted on 10/12/2011 8:14:13 PM PDT by archaicoldschool (.)
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To: decimon; SunkenCiv; neverdem; DvdMom; grey_whiskers; Ladysmith; Roos_Girl; Silentgypsy; ...

CCR5-delta32 allele

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCR5-D32#CCR5-.CE.9432


27 posted on 10/12/2011 8:19:40 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: archaicoldschool

Yee—aahh, pretty much what I said. And somehow different conclusions. Mmkay.

You see it as proof that something evolved. I see it as proof that something already existed and had no need to evolve.

Like, I dunno, People. Or tigers.


28 posted on 10/12/2011 11:33:17 PM PDT by ExGeeEye (I have been called intolerant. It's true. I refuse to tolerate the intolerable.)
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To: LucyT; SunkenCiv
I didn't know this about Baillie, he's been a favorite of my for many years:

Tree-ring patterns are intellectual property, not climate data

29 posted on 10/13/2011 1:06:28 AM PDT by blam
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To: ExGeeEye
"Apparently about 2/3 of the population already had the resistant traits. "

Apparently thinning the herd for hundreds, maybe thousands of years.

A number of things like that is likely going on with us presently.

Who would have guessed that cancer is contagious...wouldn't that be something, eh?

30 posted on 10/13/2011 1:11:55 AM PDT by blam
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To: ExGeeEye
In Stalin's Russia, your denial of Lysenkoism could get you sent to Siberia.

Today you get a

31 posted on 10/13/2011 3:00:56 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (New gets old. Steampunk is always cool)
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To: decimon; thecodont; blam; martin_fierro; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks decimon, and thecodont and blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


32 posted on 10/13/2011 3:31:05 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: bigheadfred
Read the Bible much? Probably not so much GOVERNMENT FUNDED research there. But seek for the answer where the answer lies.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how the Bible will give me any insights as to the particular genetic makeup of the survivors as compared to the non-survivors. But give me a good selection of samples from each group, a well-stocked lab, and a hundred thousand dollar or so grant, and I'll figure it out.

33 posted on 10/13/2011 4:38:50 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: ExGeeEye
Apparently about 2/3 of the population already had the resistant traits.

If they had had to wait for the resistant traits to "evolve", then mortality in the exposed population would have been nearer 3/3.

They had the particular mutations because evolution is going on constantly. In the absence of selective pressures, the mutations tend to remain at fairly constant levels throughout the population. (That is, if 5% have the mutation in an initial population, about 5% of each subsequent generation will also have the mutation.) When selective pressures are added, giving those with the mutation a survival advantage, the incidence of the mutation throughout the population increases.

In this case, there were already selective pressures on the population to spread this particular mutation (there were lots of infectious diseases in Europe), which is why 2/3 of the population already had it when the Black Plague hit.

In other words, what is described in the article is exactly what we expect to see happen in an evolutionary scenario.

34 posted on 10/13/2011 4:45:53 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: exDemMom

Grr, I should have pointed out that mutations don’t happen in response to evolutionary pressures. They happen randomly as a result of the chemistry of DNA, for the most part. Technically speaking, evolution occurs when the mutation confers a survival advantage to an environmental challenge.


35 posted on 10/13/2011 4:48:37 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: bigheadfred

Maybe we just have less rats.


36 posted on 10/13/2011 7:13:52 AM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: Winstons Julia

In another moment I had scrambled up the earthen ram-
part and stood upon its crest, and the interior of the redoubt
was below me. A mighty space it was, with gigantic machines
here and there within it, huge mounds of material and strange
shelter places. And scattered about it, some in their over-
turned war-machines, some in the now rigid handling-
machines, and a dozen of them stark and silent and laid in
a row, were the Martians—DEAD!—slain by the putrefactive
and disease bacteria against which their systems were unpre-
pared; slain as the red weed was being slain; slain, after all
man’s devices had failed, by the humblest things that God,
in his wisdom, has put upon this earth.

For so it had come about, as indeed I and many men
might have foreseen had not terror and disaster blinded our
minds. These germs of disease have taken toll of humanity
since the beginning of things—taken toll of our prehuman
ancestors since life began here. But by virtue of this natural
selection of our kind we have developed resisting power; to
no germs do we succumb without a struggle, and to many—
those that cause putrefaction in dead matter, for instance
—our living frames are altogether immune. But there are no
bacteria in Mars, and directly these invaders arrived, directly
they drank and fed, our microscopic allies began to work
their overthrow. Already when I watched them they were
irrevocably doomed, dying and rotting even as they went to
and fro. It was inevitable. By the toll of a billion deaths
man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against
all comers; it would still be his were the Martians ten
times as mighty as they are. For neither do men live nor die in
vain.


37 posted on 10/13/2011 7:26:18 AM PDT by null and void (Day 995 of America's holiday from reality...)
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To: null and void

I heard it’s unwise to play that on the radio without a warning that it’s fiction.

“Until now I always felt a stranger in this town, and that I’d no concern with you people. But now that I’ve seen what I have seen, I know that I belong here whether I want it or not. This business is everybody’s business.”

“... once the faintest stirring of hope became possible, the dominion of the plague was ended.”


38 posted on 10/13/2011 7:46:21 AM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: decimon

About ten percent of Europeans are totally immune to it, they could go swimming in a pool full of the stuff and walk away without even a sniffle.

They have a mutation called Delta-32 that does something to the cell membranes around their immune system cells, and the bacteria can’t get past it.

And this same mutation makes them totally immune to another killer - HIV.

Thing is, you have to have two copies of the gene, one from your mom and one from your dad. If you only have one copy, you have a much, much better chance and higher resistance to both diseases, but you are not 100% immune.


39 posted on 10/13/2011 7:59:14 AM PDT by djf (Soon you will need a prescription for EVERY SINGLE VITAMIN.)
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To: exDemMom

Uh-huh; mmkay.


40 posted on 10/13/2011 9:59:23 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (I have been called intolerant. It's true. I refuse to tolerate the intolerable.)
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To: archaicoldschool; decimon; SunkenCiv; blam; ExGeeEye; thecodont; exDemMom; Winstons Julia; ...

A number of important factors are not mentioned. One is the rat—the Black Rat which carried the Plague was an upstairs rat living intimately in homes, the Norway gray rat is a basement and sewer rat. I think the Black Rat was killed off by the Plague. Plague is endemic among wild rodents in 17 western US states. Our nutrition is much better. I seem to recall that someone famous (Nostradomus?) encouraged people to use Vitamin C rich rose hips tea. Vitamin C is vital in the production of white blood cells and in strengthening the adrenal glands. Many cats were killed as familiars of witches who were also killed in the many thousands in that period. Accused witches were also often the herb women, who were actually probably better at healing than the barber surgeons of the time. Professional jealosy?? There are 3 forms of the Plague—bubonic, pneumonic, and septisemic. The first, spread by flea bites, shows up as swellings in the lymph glands which means that the system is fighting back, and has a fairly high survival rate with proper treatment. The second is spread through the air, kills rapidly and is the greatest public health danger. The third is almost totally fatal and is a sign of a severely damaged immune system.

The discovery of the Delta 32 gene with it’s concurrent protection against HIV is fascinating. The probability is that two people with one gene have a 25% chance of having a child with both genes. If 10% of Europeans have this gene, then how much of that population has one gene? Don’t forget to subtract the 10% that have both. Someone, please help me with the math (not my strong point). Thanks.


41 posted on 10/13/2011 1:15:55 PM PDT by gleeaikin
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To: gleeaikin
The discovery of the Delta 32 gene with it’s concurrent protection against HIV is fascinating. The probability is that two people with one gene have a 25% chance of having a child with both genes. If 10% of Europeans have this gene, then how much of that population has one gene? Don’t forget to subtract the 10% that have both. Someone, please help me with the math (not my strong point). Thanks.

There is not quite enough information to answer this question. Is that 10% of Europeans just the homozygotes, or does that 10% consist of both hetero- and homozygotes?

42 posted on 10/13/2011 4:53:42 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: decimon; Mother Abigail; EBH; vetvetdoug; Smokin' Joe; Global2010; Battle Axe; null and void; ...
micro ping

A draft genome of Yersinia pestis from victims of the Black Death It's FReebie!

Secrets of the Black Death - video

43 posted on 10/13/2011 5:41:33 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: decimon

Delta 32 bookmark....


44 posted on 10/13/2011 10:33:05 PM PDT by Hetty_Fauxvert ("And I'm actually happy to be, for us to be the moat with alligators party." -- Mark Steyn)
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To: archaicoldschool
It is necessary to recall that the resistance was not uniformly found in the populations affected by the disease. However, records in Norway and Sweden indicate NO Sa'ami were affected. Records in the Mediterranean indicate an enormous percentage were affected.

The earlier theory was that the disease mutated as it moved North and West and eventually became non-infectious.

45 posted on 10/14/2011 4:47:30 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: exDemMom
maybe ~ maybe not. The resistance to Black Plague is also resistance to cholera, typhoid, diphtheria and quite possibly AIDs.

In the future all the homosexuals will be blue eyed blonds (if that's also an inheritable trait).

46 posted on 10/14/2011 4:50:39 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Winstons Julia
That too ~ else we'd continue to have black plague outbreaks that would gradually whittle back the numbers without resistance.

We have since discovered ways to control that vector so the outbreaks are fewer and far between and the deadly gene that gives you no resistance continues to spread in the population.

47 posted on 10/14/2011 4:53:13 AM PDT by muawiyah
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