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How Mammoths Lost The Extinction Lottery
Nature ^ | November 2, 2011 | Ewen Callaway

Posted on 11/04/2011 7:25:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Woolly mammoths, woolly rhinos and other large animals driven to extinction since the last ice age each succumbed to a different lethal mix of circumstances...

Researchers who studied the fate of six species of 'megafauna' over the past 50,000 years found that climate change and habitat loss were involved in many of the extinctions, with humans playing a part in some cases but not others. But there was no clear pattern to explain why the animals died off, and it proved impossible to predict from habitat or genetic diversity which species would go extinct and which would survive.

"It almost seems like it's a random process," says Eske Willerslev, a palaeo-geneticist at the University of Copenhagen who led the study published online today in Nature1. "If you ran the whole experiment again, we would have woolly mammoths and no reindeer, so Santa would drag his sleigh with woolly mammoths."

...Some scientists, noting that modern humans were spreading throughout the world around this time, envisaged a blitzkrieg in which technologically savvy people hunted these animals to extinction. The end of an ice age and the habitat changes it wrought led other researchers to lay the blame on climate...

The researchers created a series of snapshots of the European, Asian and North American ranges of these animals (drawn from climate records and hundreds of fossils) and a rough approximation of their population size (based on ancient mitochondrial DNA sequences) between 42,000 and 6,000 thousand years ago...

The team found no way to predict the future extinction of a species, based on either an animal's genetic diversity or the size of its range.

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; mammoths
During the last ice age, 150 genera of large animals roamed the planet. [George Teichmann]

How Mammoths Lost The Extinction Lottery

1 posted on 11/04/2011 7:25:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: Flood, Fire, and Famine in the History of Civilization The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes:
Flood, Fire, and Famine
in the History of Civilization

by Richard Firestone,
Allen West, and
Simon Warwick-Smith


2 posted on 11/04/2011 7:27:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Renfield; wildbill; decimon; gleeaikin; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; ..

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Renfield.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


3 posted on 11/04/2011 7:27:35 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv
"If you ran the whole experiment again, we would have woolly mammoths and no reindeer, so Santa would drag his sleigh with woolly mammoths."

Paleo-geneticists are always obsessing on the old man in the sky who makes miracles happen. And they call it science.

4 posted on 11/04/2011 7:29:22 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (I won't vote for Romney. I won't vote for Perry.)
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5 posted on 11/04/2011 7:29:39 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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Looking For Donors


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Are You One?

6 posted on 11/04/2011 7:30:57 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: SunkenCiv
. But there was no clear pattern to explain why the animals died off, and it proved impossible to predict from habitat or genetic diversity which species would go extinct and which would survive.

Maybe "Wooly" had something to do with it.

7 posted on 11/04/2011 7:31:15 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (999er for Cain.)
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To: Mike Darancette
Maybe "Wooly" had something to do with it.

My thought exactly! Uncanny, eh?

8 posted on 11/04/2011 7:37:41 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: SunkenCiv
"If you ran the whole experiment again, we would have woolly mammoths and no reindeer, so Santa would drag his sleigh with woolly mammoths."

And ~flying~ wooly mammoths, at that. Yeesh... And you thought that ~birds~ pooping on your freshly washed car was annoying...

9 posted on 11/04/2011 7:40:38 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Mike Darancette

We find frozen woolies left and right up North. I’m sure there are a few running around labs worldwide.


10 posted on 11/04/2011 7:41:59 PM PDT by txhurl (Did you want to talk or fish? Or feed the fish?)
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To: SunkenCiv

One of my favorite pieces in my knife collection is a Benchmade Gold class folder, with a Damascus blade and a pure white mammoth ivory handle. Hand made, limited edition of 100.

There’s lots of mammoth ivory out there, but most is yellowish, with heavy graining and striping. This stuff is white and smooth. It’s simply breathtaking. And to think how old that ivory is... Staggering.


11 posted on 11/04/2011 7:55:41 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: SunkenCiv
Researchers who studied the fate of six species of 'megafauna' over the past 50,000 years found that climate change and habitat loss were involved in many of the extinctions, with humans playing a part in some cases but not others.

I was watching a show about this the other day and they were saying that climate change was unlikely to have killed the giant armadillo. It survived for more than a million years through multiple ice ages and the wide climatic swings between the. I turn around the next day and I see a "climatologist" declaring that animals are all going to become extinct because of global warming.
12 posted on 11/04/2011 7:57:15 PM PDT by cripplecreek (A vote for Amnesty is a vote for a permanent Democrat majority. ..Choose well.)
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To: cripplecreek

Whst do we call it when an existing scientific theory is unable to explain phenemna that we know exists?

It means that the present theory is wrong.


13 posted on 11/04/2011 8:05:15 PM PDT by BenKenobi (Honkeys for Herman! 10 percent is enough for God; 9 percent is enough for government)
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To: Ramius

What is the value(monetary) of a knife like that?


14 posted on 11/04/2011 8:09:27 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: Ramius

A great many 19th c billiard balls were manufactured out of mammoth ivory. And no, I don’t have a citation for that. :’)


15 posted on 11/04/2011 8:14:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: cripplecreek

They went extinct because of the Occupy Ice Age jokers.


16 posted on 11/04/2011 8:14:41 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

I gather that wooly mammoth were also very limited in genetic diversity.

A biological theory, the “island theory”, is that when a species are broken up on different isolated islands, they first diversify and become specialized to their individual islands, eventually becoming unique species, but are condemned to dying out because they become both over-specialized and inbred.

The same basic thing may have happened to wooly mammoths, by distance between herds.


17 posted on 11/04/2011 8:17:02 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: dr_lew; Mike Darancette; SunkenCiv

I disagree. I think it is purely the large size. When primitive man invented the bow and arrow, all super sized meat on the hoof became easy pickins. Only in africa and india did supersized meat survive...which makes us wonder what was wrong with the humans in those two locations. In india they learned to tame the supersized animals. But in africa, it seems they just didn’t learn.


18 posted on 11/04/2011 8:20:23 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: SunkenCiv
There is no clear pattern because the basic premise is wrong. When you figure out the question, then the pattern emerges. But if by pre-determination you have eliminated some questions, I would start there where there is no pattern.

Clues, Polar ice is thickest at the magnetic poles rather than the solar poles...

What causes water to react to magnetic fields...

How did Woolly mammoths die with flowers preserved in their stomachs... How, without digesting? Did the earths magnetic poles ever reverse... How, what could cause that?... Connect the dots.

19 posted on 11/04/2011 8:23:16 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: EEGator
What is the value(monetary) of a knife like that?

Oh... of course it depends on the collector, but I figure it is in the vicinity of $1,500 or so.

20 posted on 11/04/2011 9:23:24 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: SunkenCiv
Another complex and sophisticated, but nevertheless spurious GIGO exercise.
Garbage In, Garbage Out...
21 posted on 11/04/2011 9:25:59 PM PDT by Publius6961 (My world was lovely, until it was taken over by parasites.)
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To: Ramius

Try the flooding of Lake Missoula and creation of the Columbia Gorge as one reason the Columbia wooly mamoth may have been wiped out. That was one epic (actually several) flood. Sixty MPH, and 200+ feet above current river levels. Boulders so large they were carried to the Oregon Coast Range.


22 posted on 11/04/2011 9:29:59 PM PDT by CT
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To: SunkenCiv

I wouldn’t be surprised. There’s an astonishing amount of mammoth ivory raw material available. Especially now that other forms of ivory are largely illegal, and mammoth tusks keep being found all over the artic in the U.S., Canada and Russia... It may not be exactly plentiful, but it is available. If you want a set of mammoth ivory grips for your Colt 1911... They can be found without much trouble.

The big difference is the quality of the ivory. Most of the mammoth ivory is yellowed, or has harsh grain, stains, and lots of marking in it. Dark stripes from cracks are common. What attracted me to the knife was the pure white ivory. In mammoth ivory I’ve seen, that’s fairly uncommon. That tells me they had a pretty special sample from which to make their handles.


23 posted on 11/04/2011 9:42:49 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: CT

Are you talking about the flood from the break of the ice dam? If you’ve ever been to “dry falls” in WA, they figure that the canyon downstream of dry falls was formed all at once... Maybe a period of three or so DAYS, after the ice dam finally broke.

Amazing stuff.


24 posted on 11/04/2011 9:49:32 PM PDT by Ramius (personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: SunkenCiv

Chunky Soup indeed.

25 posted on 11/05/2011 4:08:27 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Ramius

It sounds like a pretty sweet knife.


26 posted on 11/05/2011 5:59:21 AM PDT by EEGator
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To: American in Israel
There are two theoretical possibilities for flash freezing 6-10 ton beasties:

Velokovski's close approach of the protoplanet Venus (He correctly predicted both the temperature and composition of Venus’ atmosphere before any probes were sent. The prevailing view at that time was that Venus was a warmer version of Earth).

and;

The Northern Ice Cap had massive freshwater lakes - think the Great Lakes super sized - which collapsed into the warmer oceans sending water vapor into the stratosphere, which then fell back to Earth supercooled, flash freezing the beasts.

Theories abound, but none can be verified, currently.

27 posted on 11/05/2011 6:13:00 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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28 posted on 11/05/2011 6:16:31 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: martin_fierro

That didn’t work, but I love that page already.


29 posted on 11/05/2011 6:20:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: PIF; Fred Nerks

from “Earth in Upheaval” (p 3)

High in the north above Siberia, six hundred miles inside the Polar Circle, in the Arctic Ocean, lie the Liakhov Islands. Liakhov was a hunter who, in the days of Catherine II, ventured to these islands and brought back the report that they abounded in mammoths’ bones. “Such was the enormous quantity of mammoths’ remains that it seemed . . . that the island was actually composed of the bones and tusks of elephants, cemented together by icy sand.” 3

The New Siberian Islands, discovered in 1805 and 1806, as well as the islands of Stolbovoi and Belkov to the west, present the same picture. “The soil of these desolate islands is absolutely packed full of the bones of elephants and rhinoceroses in astonishing numbers.” 4


30 posted on 11/05/2011 6:24:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Yeah, read most everything Velokovski wrote, but thanks.


31 posted on 11/05/2011 8:22:28 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: SunkenCiv

How you like me NOW.

32 posted on 11/05/2011 8:30:59 AM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: PIF

This could be a good Catastrophism list ping as well, so, thanks. :’)


33 posted on 11/05/2011 9:01:36 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: martin_fierro

$10 a can, not bad.


34 posted on 11/05/2011 9:01:57 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping me for both, and you are welcome!


35 posted on 11/05/2011 10:13:03 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: SunkenCiv

saw a show on cable the other day that posited a theory I hadn’t heard before.

The climte change enabled many different species and related members of similar species to wander onto territories where they had not previously existed.

This intermingling esposed them to germs to which they had not previously been exposed, killing whole populations of larger species from disease.


36 posted on 11/05/2011 1:58:42 PM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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To: wildbill

That’s a nice story, but there’s no discernable evidence of a disease in the last mammoths. There is however evidence for sudden extinction. Yes, there were some isolated populations (dwarfed) which persisted until perhaps 2000 years ago, and the Earth can only show one face to the incoming space crud which was found embedded in the tusks of the last North American mammoths. :’)


37 posted on 11/05/2011 5:25:34 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv
My folks just gave my son a book called "Dinosaurs for Kids," a creationist theory about how dinosaurs lived and eventually died out. My boy is five and I don't want to have to explain to him the mental gymnastics this author has to do to come up with his theories. There is even a picture of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden with an apple and surrounded by dinosaurs.
38 posted on 11/05/2011 8:22:55 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: Sawdring

There are other dino books he could also enjoy. :’)


39 posted on 11/05/2011 8:26:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: wildbill

This is Robert Bakker’s theory in his 1985 book “The Dinosaur Heresies”. Bakker notes that the mass extinctions at the end of the Cretaceous period did not occur at once but over a period of several million years.

Bakker speculated that because of continental drift historically isolated populations came into contact and thus succumbed to new diseases.

It’s not surprising that the climate change doomsayers borrowed his theory.


40 posted on 11/05/2011 8:46:22 PM PDT by KamperKen
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To: SunkenCiv

Space crud embedded in the tusks of mammoths?

That’s my boys! Fighting to the end against the alien crud from outer space while all the little wussies were hiding in caves and under rocks.


41 posted on 11/06/2011 4:33:05 PM PST by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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To: wildbill

;’) If the remains had been a little more durable, we’d see the same thing with the Clovis folks. :’)


42 posted on 11/06/2011 4:41:27 PM PST by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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