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Self-defense Devices Other Than Guns
self ^ | 11/ | A Navy Vet

Posted on 11/10/2011 9:07:50 PM PST by A Navy Vet

Things are getting dicey. While some States allow gun open carry and others allow concealed or both, many good folks just don't want to have to carry all the time.

While I wish all good citizens would carry, here is an alternative for those who still would defend themselves and those innocents around them.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; protection; selfdefense; stun; stungun
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Ditter
That was my deciding factor in going with the gel. I kept picturing her in a dangerous situation and not being able to flee after the fact or even see what was going on.

The gel coated the melon I sprayed at about 10 feet with no "mist" in the air.

51 posted on 11/10/2011 10:52:37 PM PST by voteNRA (A citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized)
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To: A Navy Vet
"Does it shoot out in a stream like wasp spray? If so, that could be really nasty."

Kind of, it sprays out directly and splats over its target. For lack of a better description, I would almost compare it to "silly string" but with much more force behind it.

52 posted on 11/10/2011 10:57:11 PM PST by voteNRA (A citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized)
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To: A Navy Vet

How To: Build a Mini Flame Thrower (Modify a Lighter)
Feb 1, 2011 ... Here is How to Make a Mini Flame Thrower: SUPPLIES: any disposable cigarette
lighter small flat-head screwdriver. PROCEDURE: 1. Use the ...

www.doityourselfplanet.com/.../how-to-build-a-mini-flame-thrower-modify-a-lighter- -


53 posted on 11/10/2011 11:04:16 PM PST by bunkerhill7
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To: Jonty30

“He means, you are mentally-trained to take out your opponent, without hesitation or concer for his well being.”

Got it, thanks. Having grown up on the streets of LA and living in cars and garages and 11 years Navy and biker before and after, I have no problem with hesitation. Guess that’s why I’m still around at 61.

Had my confrontations (think Satan’s Slaves 1%) and my lumps. Got my ass kicked a couple times but did well with throat pressure a couple other times. Like an earlier poster mentioned about the benefits of Krav maga, it came naturally to me since I’m not a big guy.

Now too old for that...they get zapped.


54 posted on 11/10/2011 11:06:21 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: A Navy Vet
Bear Spray.
There has not been a case of it failing to stop ANY bear... it is amazingly effective. Breathing hurts, your eyes hurt, it can make you sick (probably from the heavy runny mucus that occurs immediately after getting sprayed with it)
Good up to 30 or so feet, but don't spray it in an enclosed room unless you have an exit pre-planned.
Works on nearly all animals, including I have heard, alligators.

Oh, and it is a nearly completely harmless chemical wise, it is made of the active ingredient in peppers. Water gets rid of it and it is gone.

Trust me though, you (or your adversary) will need a lot water.. a shower is best.
But figure anyone sprayed directly with it for about an hour is effectively out of action.
55 posted on 11/10/2011 11:11:18 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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To: A Navy Vet

For alternatives to fire-arms, consider:
#1: cable belt. Steel cable is purchased at Home Depot. Attach hooks or buckle+clasp. Wear in place of leather belt around your waist. Unhook and swing to use. Holds up your pants when not in combat use.
#2: kevlar. Used police body armor sells for as little as $50 per panel online. Don’t forget your defense!
#3: deer urine. Purchased at any hunting store. Break the glass and no one will be able to breath within 20 feet.
#4: sling shot. Every rock or piece of broken concrete/brick is your ammo. Never run out of “bullets.”
#5: pepper spray. Doesn’t have a problem with battery life as do stun guns. Doesn’t have a problem with being recovered after dropped into water as do stun guns.
#6: ice pick. Cheap. Easy to conceal. Utterly deadly.
#7: Walking stick. Alternative: umbrella.
#8: horse whip.
#9: caltrops. Alternatives: throwing stars, throwing knives, and boomerangs.
10: box cutter.

Honorable mention: large attack dogs


56 posted on 11/10/2011 11:13:33 PM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Southack

A Pocket Tribuchet????

57 posted on 11/10/2011 11:19:14 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: All

Bump for later


58 posted on 11/10/2011 11:23:38 PM PST by NoLibZone (Occupy is the DNC's use of children,indigent & infirm to push back TeaParty calls for smaller gov't)
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To: A Navy Vet
Does it shoot out in a stream like wasp spray? If so, that could be really nasty.

Yes, if it was a harmful chemical like what is in Wasp spray it would be something to be worried about.
But it is only the active ingredient in well, peppers.
It can be washed off with water and have no long term effects.

But for about an hour those sprayed directly will not be doing anything to harm you or yours.. even polar bears.

The rules for spraying it are pretty much like spitting or peeing... never into the wind or a small enclosed space. I seen the effects and sort of gotten sprayed with it (by accident). My wife tried it out in the house one night while I was not there...
The amount in the air was crippling. So I opened the doors and windows and when around with a water sprayer and "misted" the stuff in the air. Took about 15 minutes but was cleared out.. lots of red droplets every where though.
So the other rule is like using a gun, don't spray it at anything you don't want to neutralize. Short directed bursts, aimed at the face and upper body of those you want to neutralize.
59 posted on 11/10/2011 11:26:54 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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To: Southack
Holds up your pants when not in combat use.

And when it is in use yo' britches is around yo' ankles.

60 posted on 11/10/2011 11:27:01 PM PST by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: real saxophonist; A Navy Vet
Mindset.

In my opinion, the answer by Real Saxophonist is probably the best one I have seen so far. Mindset is the most effective self-defense 'device' because, with it, anything becomes a weapon. Many people are saying knives, but if you check the legality of knives (and more importantly, the possible legal ramifications of using one even in a self defense situation) they can actually be far more problematic than a gun. I have done martial arts since 3rd grade, and by my first year of university I had progressed from martial arts to reality-based self defense systems. My first martial art was Shotokan (where I achieved ni-dan - 2nd degree black belt), and then I moved to more realistic stuff like Krav Maga and Arnis (I still do one traditional system - Xingyi - but everything else is reality-based self defense). I have thus had some good knife training (primarily based on the Arnis systems, aka Eskrima, which has some very good filipino knife systems that are kissing cousins of Kali knife work). One of the important things taught is what a knife can do (in the proper hands, and within close range, a knife can do more damage to you than any bullet from a handgun), as well as the legal ramifications. A jury can easily buy into you saying you had to shoot the perp to save your life. It is much harder if the jury is told you are a 'knife experty,' and is shown how you 'defanged' the perp by slitting the muscles in his wrist and forearms, moved in for a strike to his clavicle, sliced upwards into his carotid, and as he collapsed down you stepped to the side and hit a major blood vessel in his thigh. In real cases knife users (especially once the pictures of the perp are shown - and compared to guns a knife is far likelier to leave the person dead. I don't have the statistics at the tip of my tongue, but I remember that the difference being huge) - anyways, in real life legal cases a knife user usually gets it much rougher than a gun user. Some juries seem to think that by carrying a knife you were looking for trouble (which is silly thinking considering they don't apply the same metric to someone carrying a gun).

As for pepper sprays and the other stuff people are recommending - e.g. mace - those will work for most people. However, chances are that the person attacking you may be on drugs, may be in a highly aggressive state (making him more tolerant to pain/irritants) - in essence a pain-resistant attacker. There is an interesting book called 'Fighting the Pain Resistant Attacker' (or something like that - its on Amazon) written by a former police officer who teaches reality-based self defense training where he states how a perp that is sufficiently pumped up on adrenalin is not fazed at all by things like pepper spray. For that matter, even a bullet may not stop - immediately - someone who is sufficiently pumped up. A small caliber bullet with improper shot placement can still leave someone very able to kill you (and even with a fatal shot the person still has some seconds, maybe 10, where he can still kill you - I believe it is called the dead man's ten or something like that. Interestingly, knives in the proper hands do not have that problem. Get tagged by a trained knife user and it is lights off).

As for stun guns/tasers - they do work, however they need the proper mindset. Many people just own stuff - never train, never practice, and even when they do they never do so under pressure. There is a guy in Zambia who got car jacked, and the thieves eventually pulled over and threw him out of the car. The man was carrying a concealed weapon, drew his gun at the thieves and pulled the trigger. Click! He had forgotten to engage the safety. That split second allowed the robbers to draw their guns on him and kill him. The man was a good shot, he practiced a lot and knew how to handle his weapon. He had just never done so under a stressful situation, and when under stress people do stupid things. It is why, for example, in reality-based self defense (e.g. Krav Maga) many of the movements are VERY simple, easy to do and 'large' movements due to the fact that during stressful situations it is difficult to do highly intricate movements. Under stress, or when one is going through an adrenalin dump, people forget things. Like taking the safety off. People have died due to stuff like that. Which is why one has two alternatives - either learn or buy something that is simple to use even under a stressful situation, or else practice like crazy under all sorts of high-pressure situations. For instance Krav Maga - good teachers will have you fight an opponent in a darkened room, where you get 'attacked' from behind, thrown down and you have to fend for yourself (obviously you are wearing a padded suit since the blows are real). Or for instance knife attack training - it is shown that in most knife attacks most victims (who survive since many don't) do not even see the knife. It is only in the movies where a guy will take out a knife and wave it in front of you. In real life that doesn't happen (unless someone is only trying to scare you). What happens is a person walks up to you, and the time you know you are in a knife 'fight' (there are no such things as knife fights, simply knife attacks) is when you feel some pain and look down to see blood after the guy has stabbed you 7 to 8 times in the abdomen. Thus, the training has to be as realistic as possible.

What is the thread that ties all of this together?

Simple - mindset. You have to be a mindset that instantly goes in the 'on' position when needed. You need to be prepared to do anything you need to do to survive. If it means bursting someone's eyeballs with your thumbs, biting someone in the neck, tearing off an ear (at certain angles it is quite easy to do that), shooting someone, stabbing someone in the throat, etc. You have to have a mindset that is situationally aware, since many people never even recognize they are in a dangerous situation. Having situational awareness will save you better than any gun or knife. A mindset that will not make you panic or fumble or forget about safeties. Many people do not have that mindset, and the only reason they survive an attack is because the other guy was a fool. If I came to rob the typical homeowner I guarantee I would probably be able to kill most of them, even if they had their gun on them, since I would not be mucking up things. Most people simply do not have the mindset. They train, but they do not train realistically. (By the way there are some very good reality-based gun courses in the US that are far better than simply going to the range and shooting at a paper target).

However, with the proper mindset, even a simple plastic credit card is a weapon. A pencil to the eye. A phone in your fist to his throat. Anything is a weapon if one has the proper mindset. However, without the mindset that gives you capability to have situational awareness, the capability to act, and the capability to do so without fumbling in panic - without those aspects even a gun may not be enough (and it would depend on the other guy making a mistake). Fortunately most robbers/perps tend to make mistakes, but not all of them.

There is a lady who bit off the attackers scrotum, before choking him out. One of my friends was attacked by two thugs in Nairobi and ended up killing one of them by digging his fingers into the man's throat (note: into the flesh). Mentality and mindset. Otherwise a person can have a fully functioning weapon and forget to release the safety.

61 posted on 11/10/2011 11:32:03 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: JSteff
I have to disagree with one thing you said. Water is not effective in removing capsaicin. It is an oleo resin and is not water soluble. I have heard milk might be good because the proteins may bind with it but that didn't work for me one time when I had peeled hot chiles bare handed and they were burning up with pain. I tried everything in the house; cucumber lotion, milk, water and dish soap and other things that might remove it or cool it.

Finally I gave up and went out to the garden and pulled weeds for something to do. About twenty minutes later I realized the pepper pain was gone. Something about the soil removed the capsaicin or neutralized it because it didn't reactivate when I washed my hands which is quite typical. I don't know how you could apply that remedy to the eyes, nose or throat though.

62 posted on 11/10/2011 11:32:36 PM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: heartwood

“Krav Maga is actually a very good art for people who aren’t strong. I’m a small woman, only took a few KM classes because it was too far away, but in terms of self defense it’s a lot more practical than most karate classes. And the instructors take your size and strength into account and teach you techniques you can actually carry off.”

You’re correct, it is MUCH more effective than taking years of karate or kung fu or all that nonsense. From the little I know of Krav Maga, it’s about hitting pressure points...eyes, throat, underarms, groin, etc. The problem with Krav Maga is that it is a finality that can lead to death. Some times you need that, other times you don’t.

That is why I’m suggesting the stun gun approach. Feel you’re in jeapordy, pull it out and “zap” the potential assailant into oblivion. And what if the assailant is drunk or on PCP or other nervous system enhancing drugs? Pepper spray doesn’t always work because either the bad guy is beyond that effort or you don’t aim properly.

Electrical short-circuiting of the body always works. Have you ever seen the police training on History/Discovery channels where they get zapped by a taser? They all go down immediately. Stun guns work the same.

Use your Krav Maga training when you will, but if you had a stun gun you wouldn’t have to risk the assailant stabbing you while you’re attempting to attack his soft points.

http://www.beststungun.com/blast-knuckles.html


63 posted on 11/10/2011 11:34:09 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: CIBvet

Too close and unreliable for my comfort. That would work for a trained individual - not for us older folks nor the untrained. But thanks for the suggestion.


64 posted on 11/10/2011 11:38:55 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: A Navy Vet

Have fun with all these toys while some thug is firing a 9mm or sawed-off 12 gau at you from 10 yards away.

Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

Carry a gun. The bad guys have them. And they don’t worry about laws and life.


65 posted on 11/10/2011 11:44:35 PM PST by itzmygun (Obama will stop you.)
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To: TigersEye
Water is not effective in removing capsaicin.

You are right, but if you wash it off, as much as you can, it goes a long way to ending it's effects. Don't handle presonal body parts either and it will burn like crazy. Milk has worked for me as well as taking a shower and washing in dish detergent.
I was just misting around the house to get the suspended droplets out of the air... but they still stung if rubbed in your eyes. So everything you spray it on needs washed just to get it off.
Now all that being said, it is VERY effective at putting an attacker out of commission.
At least long enough to kick him or beat him with sticks or baseball bats before you call the cops.
66 posted on 11/10/2011 11:44:53 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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To: voteNRA
"Kind of, it sprays out directly and splats over its target. For lack of a better description, I would almost compare it to "silly string" but with much more force behind it."

That could work. As much as like the stun guns, the further away from the assailant, the better. With little wind factor because of the heavy stream and being able to point the stream, sounds like a credible deterrent, unlike the problematic aerosols. Thanks, actually may buy some to test. If works as promoted, I will buy more for the loved ones.

67 posted on 11/10/2011 11:55:17 PM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: spetznaz
I like you. If it weren't for this, yours would be the post of the day. 8~)
68 posted on 11/11/2011 12:07:45 AM PST by real saxophonist (The fact that you play tuba doesn't make you any less lethal. -USMC bandsman in Iraq)
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To: spetznaz

All good points. But my article is about not having to deal with personal combat but about the quickest way to bring an assailant down if you just reach into your pocket or purse. That’s why I suggested stun guns/tasers. Touch them and they go down. Really doesn’t need much training. My “Blaster Knuckle” can easily be pulled out of my pocket and turn on and ZAP the prick. Just gotta know when to reach for it, and that’s a judgment call no matter what defense mechanism you hav.e

Okay, so you don’t have time to reach towards your stun gun, how many people are going to spend all that time to learn hand-to-hand combat? Not many. So, it’s up to them to recognize the threat and pull their deterrent, whatever it may be, including a gun.

Absolutely agree that pepper spray (mace) can be worthless depending on the size and determination of the attacker, not to mention wind factors. However, if you read above, there is now a pepper spray formula in gel form that shoots out like wasp deterrent. I like that.

Seems there are a number of deterrents, but for the average citizen, martial arts are not the answer due to life time constraints. Just trying to give good citizens some options.


69 posted on 11/11/2011 12:22:12 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: spetznaz
Wow, great mindset post.

And I might add that mindset should be as natural to you as blinking or breathing with no time needed to *ramp* it up. Time is your enemy up close.

70 posted on 11/11/2011 12:30:05 AM PST by The Cajun (Palin, Free Republic, Mark Levin, Rush, Hannity......Nuff said.)
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To: JSteff
Don't handle presonal body parts either and it will burn like crazy.

Tell me about it! lol

I learned that lesson and another one or two when I had a batch of extra hot chiles from Deming NM. A different time than the previous account. These were the hottest green chiles I have ever had bar none. I peeled those without gloves too and my hands throbbed for two days. Every time I got them wet it reactivated the heat somewhat.

What really got me was when I was removing the dried chiles from the wires on the porch. As one snapped free of the wire a seed, a single seed, flew into my eye. The pain was instantaneous and the most outrageous pain I have ever felt. Luckily I lived a mile or more from the nearest neighbor because I bellowed like I was being gored by a bull.

I had just bought some saline solution the day before and stumbled to my truck blind to get it. Then I needed to find the eye cup in my first aid kit. Got my eyes open for a half-second each time to determine where the compartment latches were on my truck.

What you said about getting sick on the mucous makes sense. I didn't get sick but I must have drained a gallon of fluid from my eyes, nose and mouth and breathing was a challenge due to it all. Flushed my eyes with the saline solution over and over to no avail. And thirty minutes later I was fine. A little warm around the eyes and feeling drained like I had just taken a sauna but otherwise unharmed. Time fixed it not the saline.

From that what I think I learned is that capsaicin is powerfully incapacitating. But someone who is determined and knows how to fight could continue to attack although they would have to do it nearly blind. If I used pepper spray on someone I would look at using their initial reaction as an opportunity to flee or to use other measures to more effectively incapacitate them. Like knock them out flat cold with the nearest suitable object.

I also think, given the potential of dosing yourself with it, I would prefer to use the pepper spray up close and as a surprise. Keeping it hidden in my hand until the last moment and then jamming it up the assailants nose (or in the mouth) and just opening up for a sustained spray as long as I could keep it jammed up there.

Imagine the effect of a large forceful burst of it directly into the sinuses and lungs. The next few moments would be yours to control as long as you didn't take it for granted that he was totally harmless.

71 posted on 11/11/2011 12:30:05 AM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: itzmygun

“Have fun with all these toys while some thug is firing a 9mm or sawed-off 12 gau at you from 10 yards away.”

I’ve been waiting for someone to miss-read this article. Thanks for doing so. Guess you missed the sentence about me wishing everyone could carry. I was simply suggesting another means of up close self-defense when folks can’t or won’t carry. If I had my way, everyone in the entire USA would be allowed to open carry while loaded. You’re giving shit to the wrong person.


72 posted on 11/11/2011 12:32:12 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: spetznaz

Great post! Thank you!


73 posted on 11/11/2011 12:44:04 AM PST by Brad’s Gramma (I stand with Mr. Cain!)
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To: A Navy Vet

It seems to me that you all are concerned with protecting your own asses. What about our loved ones?

When my wife wants to take a walk with our little one, they take Jack, an asshole Jack Russel that wants to kill everything but has no stature to stand behind, and they take Daniels, a bloodhound, now she can do some damage.

But most importantly, they have my Cel phone number.

I will take a second look at what is available, but my gut tells me that the most appropriate weapon will be a Cane. I’ll just have to show her what are the best methods to us it.


74 posted on 11/11/2011 12:52:20 AM PST by Haddit (Heartless)
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To: Haddit

Gimme your address and I’ll take lessons too.

:)


75 posted on 11/11/2011 12:56:10 AM PST by Brad’s Gramma (I stand with Mr. Cain!)
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To: spetznaz
> For that matter, even a bullet may not stop - immediately - someone who is sufficiently pumped up. A small caliber bullet with improper shot placement can still leave someone very able to kill you (and even with a fatal shot the person still has some seconds, maybe 10, where he can still kill you...

I found this in an old thread, posted by a now unknown Freeper and repost it occasionally when it fits a topic.

The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-center-mass-myth-and-ending-a-gunfight-triggernometry/

“Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it... One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will...”

The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

As a civilian, I found this article to be a real eye opener, and while it may be old news to those of you in law enforcement or the military (thank you all for your service), I hope you will take the time to read this article. God forbid any of us should get into a gunfight, but this article could be a lifesaver someday.

76 posted on 11/11/2011 1:00:01 AM PST by ADemocratNoMore (Jeepers, Freepers, where'd 'ya get those sleepers?. Pj people, exposing old media's lies.)
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To: real saxophonist

Im been tazed and sprayed. Id rather be tazed any day. OC sucks..


77 posted on 11/11/2011 1:10:17 AM PST by goseminoles
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To: TigersEye

I tried baby shampoo to get the pepper spray out. It worked. But not much.


78 posted on 11/11/2011 1:16:25 AM PST by goseminoles
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To: A Navy Vet; ADemocratNoMore; Brad's Gramma; The Cajun; real saxophonist
Thanks A-N-Vet. I get it now - you are telling FReepers about viable alternatives to guns. That's good and commendable. I also agree that stun guns can be quite effective, and that martial arts (to be more specific, reality-based self-defense systems like Krav Maga, Hagganah and Kapap) are not for everyone. Agree 100% with your points, and I also see how they can save someone's life.

I do however wish people would spend time honing their level of situational awareness. It is sad just how unaware most people are. Simple awareness can save someone from the vast majority of problems - especially when mixed with simple common sense. Don't drive to certain places at certain times. Don't leave the bar late at night by yourself when you are totally wasted. Don't invite the guy you just met (for ladies) a week ago to your house to watch a movie with you. Walk with confidence and project an air of assertiveness (most predators tend to attack those they think make good victims - whether it is a lion attacking the sick old wildebeest, or some mugger looking at the person walking down the street with earphones on totally unaware of the environment). Don't be too predictable. Ensure the locks are not only safe but the door is sturdy too (I was always amazed when I was in the US how the doors were flimsy).

Now, to that add mindset. Even with the stun guns it is important for someone to train using them under stressful conditions. One cannot just buy a taser or some pepper spray and put them in their pocket or handbag. Buy an extra one (or two) and use them. Maybe have a friend wear one of those padded suits they use for paintball and have them rush you. In many cases it will be revealed that the person will not be able to reach in time to the attack. What will that do? It will make the person mentally adjust their reaction protocols, and when it happens again they will be better prepared. Do that 5 to 10 times and I guarantee you that if/when a perp does try to attack you that your use of the stun gun/pepperspray/etc will work! However, most people will just buy the taser or the can of pepper spray, put it in their vehicle or handbag, and that's that. An event occurs, and they are not even able to use it.

Case in point: I was watching one of my favorite guilty-pleasures (a show called Cheaters where a camera crew busts cheating spouses), and the camera crew creeped up to this couple (both older citizens), whereby the lady started screaming (probably thinking it was muggers), took out her mace, and started spraying all around her. Everywhere but towards the camera men. It was actually quite hilarious ...she was spraying herself and her male friend, and even then it did not affect them (I think the shock was so much that the pepper spray did not even affect the lady who seemed around 50 or so). If she had a taser she would probably have fired it at a tree or the ground or her foot! She had bought a weapon, put it in her bag, never practiced with it (at least not under stressful situations), and thus all she managed to do was spray some mist around and get most of it on herself before the camera crew disarmed her. She then started saying that if she had her gun she could have shot someone - no, she wouldn't have! She would have reacted the same. It reminds me of that YouTube video where some guy with a revolver tries to shoot a lawyer for some reason. The lawyer is hiding behind a tree, the shooter is 3 feet away, and the shooter doesn't score a real hit - runs out of bullets - and then walks away before he is tackled! In his mind, before the shooting, the shooter had seen how it would progress. Walk up, shoot the lawyer, end of story. However, what happened is he went through an adrenalin surge/dump, his fine motor skills disappeared (he was not using only gross motor skills), and he couldn't even hit a lawyer standing 3 feet away with 6 shots!

Training under stressful conditions is imperative. Whether or not it is your fists, your gun, your knife, a can of pepper spray, or a taser system. Without that training, which most people do NOT do, all they are doing is deluding themselves. Acquiring a false sense of security when the fact is that they are still vulnerable.

People also do not consider what happens if your defense fails. For instance, let's say I attack someone. The person pulls out a contact stun gun. To use it they have to make contact with me - however if they can make contact with me I can make contact with them. Now, I am not the baddest person on the planet (not even close - there are some baaaad folk out there), but you probably wouldn't want me to get too close to you. Others haven't. However, most people always focus on what they are going to do to the other person (e.g. I will take my gun out and shoot them, I will take the pepper spray out and blast them, I will take out my taser and shoot the electrified barbs into their chest on a dark wet night when the guy just popped out from behind unannounced and rushed me), BUT they do not consider what the other person is doing. By the time a perp attacks you he has already marked you as a victim. That is for a reason. Maybe you look weak, maybe you look vulnerable, maybe you are so intent on something you are experiencing tunnel vision, maybe you are listening to headphones. In most cases you are a victim due to something you are doing or not doing. In most cases the perp, like any predator, will not announce themselves. It will happen suddenly, unexpectedly, and quickly. It will be a shock. Unless the person has trained (and trained under a high pressure environment) I will bet you that most people will not even be able to clear the pepper spray, taser, knife, handgun from its holster, let alone aim it accurately and use it. Hence the rule of 21 feet when a person with a gun is facing a person with a knife. Within 21 feet the person with a knife has a chance if the gun is holstered. 21 feet is quite some distance.

Personally, if I was asked to choose between a) my years of training or b) my situational awareness, the answer would be 100% situational awareness. Every single time. With situational awareness/mindset I have a chance. Without it I am just a victim who happens to have training/a knife/a taser.

There is a website called http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com that tries to dispel a lot of the myths of self defense (self defense with fists, a gun, a knife, tasers, sprays, etc), as well as to show what is proper. First class website unlike many that just pump out cr@p. They have an article on what is the best weapon for self defense. The link is shown below:

Best Weapon for Self-Defense?

A very nice article (that website is filled with very nice articles). Anyways, here is a brief excerpt but I would recommend for FReepers to check out the full article:

My prallel of 'the greater the distance the less you have to worry about defense' has a subclause. That is 'the closer the distance, the MORE you have to worry about defense."

And by defense, I do mean defense.

Distance weapons rely on distance for your safety. If you shoot someone across the room, there is absolutely nothing to prevent him from shooting back. Your safety is dependant on your bullets, his excitement, etc., screwing up his aim. If it hasn't then you are going to eat lead too.

What's more, is 'distance equals time.' If the guy has a knife and you've shot him from a distance, you're relying on the time that it take for him to cover the distance to you for that bullet to take effect. In both cases your safety is entirely dependant in what you did effecting your attacker BEFORE he can effectively counter attack. That whether it is shoot back with accuracy or close the distance to injure you.

I cannot stress the importance of this enough. Simply stated, most so-called self-defense items have NO defensive capabilities at all. By this I mean while they may stop an attacker from continuing with more attacks, they can NOT protect you from an attack in progress. If a guy is charging you, a taser, spray or a bullet will NOT stop his forward momentum. He will still reach you and proceed to do damage to you (e.g. if you taser someone and he slams into you, there's a good chance you'll lose your triggering.) Now you have a guy up close and eating your face.

That's the fundamental weakness of ANY distance weapon. If the guy gets close enough to negate the advantage of range, they are useless to prevent damage to you. From a defensive standpoint, you cannot block an incoming attack with these items. Your only hope is to create enough pain and damage to the individual that he is overcome BEFORE the damage he does to you overwhelms you.

The bottomline is the closer an attacker is the less you need to be worrying about what you are going to do to him and more about keeping him from doing to you. Don't fall for the old lie that the 'best defense is a good offense.' Because the closer you are to an attacker the more likely that attitude will turn it into trading damage contest. Actual defense against a closing attacker is THE most overlooked aspect of this entire business. People are too fixated on what they are going to do to their attacker to make him stop attacking rather than what they need to do to keep his attack from landing. Gee, you both go to the hospital or the morgue, that ain't what I call a win.

Take these three points and apply them to what you are asking. Because these elements are the realities surrounding this topic. To tell you the truth, it is really far less about what is the 'best' item than it is knowing when it is time to use each.

79 posted on 11/11/2011 1:19:27 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

“However, with the proper mindset, even a simple plastic credit card is a weapon. A pencil to the eye. A phone in your fist to his throat. Anything is a weapon if one has the proper mindset. However, without the mindset that gives you capability to have situational awareness, the capability to act, and the capability to do so without fumbling in panic - without those aspects even a gun may not be enough (and it would depend on the other guy making a mistake). Fortunately most robbers/perps tend to make mistakes, but not all of them.

You make my point. Most innocent unaware civilians have NO such “mindset”. We read about victims everyday, and rarely the few who fought back like you mention above, good for them.

My entire point is for those who don’t have automatic reactions (mindset) to gouge, bite, hit the soft spots in a close quarters encounter, nor the training or will to pull a gun (too bad there), they need something else for defense. Since we’re agreed that pepper spray may not always work (although I am interested in the new gel form), I do know that tasers and stun guns can get the job done so the victim can escape.

And isn’t that the objective of being attacked? Too escape unharmed? I’m not talking bar fist fights with young stud wannabes and their silly masochism as we’ve probably both encountered in our youth (I have). I’m talking about survival against a determined enemy/mugger/rapist/murderer.

Thanks for your input.

http://www.beststungun.com/


80 posted on 11/11/2011 1:20:24 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: goseminoles; JSteff
I don't know why I haven't thought of it before but it might have been the chlorophyll in the weeds I was pulling that removed or neutralized the capsaicin. My hands were getting dirt on them but I wasn't really putting them in the soil that much. Whatever it was it was a quick and total cure.

You would think that dish detergent would cut through the resin but it doesn't.

81 posted on 11/11/2011 1:26:21 AM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: A Navy Vet

82 posted on 11/11/2011 1:36:12 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: A Navy Vet

83 posted on 11/11/2011 1:43:06 AM PST by Daffynition (“There are no compacts between lions and men, and wolves and lambs have no concord.” ~ Homer)
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To: TigersEye
One of the great *chlorophyll* discussions. Evaah.
84 posted on 11/11/2011 1:57:10 AM PST by Daffynition (“There are no compacts between lions and men, and wolves and lambs have no concord.” ~ Homer)
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To: spetznaz

Wow! You are the first person I’ve ever heard use the term “situational awareness” in my talks on the Internet, except for maybe one Navy friend from VetsCoR. You couldn’t be more right.

I learned it as a teen growing up on the streets of Los Angeles; learned it in the Navy in the back streets of Olongapo, Hong Kong, Taiwan, et al.; learned when I got back into riding Harleys after Navy and hanging at biker joints again and have spent many times trying keep my current (naive) wife from going off the main streets of Cabo and other places we’ve traveled. She once walk away when I wasn’t looking and took some back streets to go back for her cigs at a club. Of course, I took off running to grab her and bring her back to the main drag. She didn’t get it, but I saw the scumsuckers eyeing her and got her out ASAP.

To this day, when we occasionally go to the local club, she may lose commonsense about what the “situation” is (different protected upbringing) and I have to take her home ASAP. She used to be really bad when we hung out at our local biker bar years back. Fortunately, now, we are more settled and she is learning that the side streets are not a good place to be, depending on the locale.

Yes, “situational awareness” has always been at the forefront of my mind. From the time I was 16 living in garages/cars to hanging out on Sunset Blvd. Hollywood to being early ‘70’s biker to Navy and on...I’ve always maintained (recognize that old term) my awareness of where I was and who was around me in case of potential problems, even after drinks.

You nailed it. That’s the first line of self-defense. Always be aware of your surroundings and any potential threats.

And yes, training with even stun guns or pepper spray is worth while. I have with the “Blaster Knuckle” (don’t have pepper spray). Practiced it pulling out my pocket and hitting the right buttons and positioning myself to bring it closest to the enemy, much like I used to practice pulling my button-opening knife out of its sheath when hanging at the biker joints.

My real problem is I don’t have a local firing range to practice. That’s a problem.

You make a lot of sense in your message, but too tired to address it all now...maybe later.

Take care.


85 posted on 11/11/2011 2:10:52 AM PST by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever.)
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To: A Navy Vet; TigersEye
Everything is a weapon.

That is so true.....
one of the most effective Martial Arts in the world today
try this link: http://www.ninjutsu.com/dojos-links_usa.shtml

not kidding...suitable for all over the age of 17, everything is taught.


86 posted on 11/11/2011 2:35:49 AM PST by skinkinthegrass (I can take tomorrow, spend it all today. Who can take your income, tax it all away. Obama Man can. :)
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To: Cvengr

Oh, that is what it is?

A Medieval Siege Engine.


87 posted on 11/11/2011 5:03:22 AM PST by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one)
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To: A Navy Vet
I'd recommend a good tire thumper. It looks like a short baseball bat with a lanyard. Running it's length is a steel rod. These are used by truckers to check the air pressure on their inner tires and can be picked up at any truck stop for under $20.

A friend of mine was having some trouble with a gang a few months back, but he has a felony record and thus cannot own a firearm. He asked the local PD for some recommendations and they told him to get a thumper and a can of wasp spray.

88 posted on 11/11/2011 5:14:05 AM PST by Stonewall Jackson (Democrats: "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.")
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To: A Navy Vet
figures...Illinois requires an FOID card.
89 posted on 11/11/2011 5:44:42 AM PST by stylin19a (obama - "FREDO" smart)
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To: A Navy Vet

Interesting discussion, marking for later read.


90 posted on 11/11/2011 5:51:08 AM PST by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: Daffynition
LOL Chlorophyll is amazing stuff!

No movie depiction of Hunter S. Thompson ever did him justice.

91 posted on 11/11/2011 11:54:58 AM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: TigersEye

Have you seen *Rum Diary* yet?

We’re going b/c of Johnny Depp...a fan of his work and all. :)


92 posted on 11/11/2011 1:07:16 PM PST by Daffynition
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To: Daffynition

I haven’t seen it or heard of it. I will keep my eyes peeled for it. I like Johnny Depp’s work too.


93 posted on 11/11/2011 1:12:50 PM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: TigersEye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YUx36yLLug

It opens here tonight...so may be in your local cinema soon.


94 posted on 11/11/2011 1:19:42 PM PST by Daffynition
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To: Daffynition

Looks very funny. Thanks for the heads up. :-)


95 posted on 11/11/2011 1:33:46 PM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: A Navy Vet
“Pepper spray is an option that could cause some of the least legal issues.”

In Louisiana, Pepper Spray might be considered an aphrodisiac.

'La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur.' - Auguste Escoffier
(Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness.)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

96 posted on 11/11/2011 2:05:17 PM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: A Navy Vet
Good for the car.
Giant maglite flashlight with batteries, cops tell me that it's the only innocuous necessity/tool they won't hassle you about.

But you knew that.

97 posted on 11/11/2011 2:28:06 PM PST by #1CTYankee (That's right, I have no proof. So what of it??)
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To: LonePalm
I talked to a firearms instructor/gun shop owner/ex-cop in VT who said he would bring a burrito to his talks on self defense then spray it down good with his pepper spray and commence to eating it to demonstrate the safety of the product.

He did admonish to make sure the only active ingredient in it was capsaicin before trying it yourself.

98 posted on 11/11/2011 3:30:28 PM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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To: TigersEye
I would recommend that you go easy on the spray.

The hottest pepper in the world is the Naga Viper (a variety of Habeñero) at about 1,800,000 Scoville units. A Jalapeño is about 2,500 - 8,000 SU.

Anti-inflammatory (arthritis) creams and pepper spray are generally about 5,000,000 Scoville units

Pure Capsaicin (15,000,000–16,000,000 SU)

'La bonne cuisine est la base du véritable bonheur.' - Auguste Escoffier
(Good food is the foundation of genuine happiness.)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

99 posted on 11/11/2011 6:07:11 PM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
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To: LonePalm

I would have to be very hard up to use pepper spray on my food. I put away four bushels of four varieties of chiles this fall. One medium for flavor and three kinds of hot chiles. But I do have a couple of pepper sprays that are way past their use-by date for defense. Probably still good for a culinary emergency. lol


100 posted on 11/11/2011 6:19:16 PM PST by TigersEye (Life is about choices. Your choices. Make good ones.)
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