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Hope, skepticism for cold fusion
Boston Globe ^ | November 27 , 2011 | D.C. Denison

Posted on 11/28/2011 9:18:01 PM PST by Kevmo

Rossi... visited the State House last week ...
Andrea Rossi made the trip at the invitation of the Senate’s minority leader, Bruce Tarr, a Republican from Gloucester, and met on Tuesday with representatives from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Northeastern University, and the University of Massachusetts.

....
At this point, however, the E-Cat is widely considered to be unproven. Tests have been scarce and secretive, perhaps because Rossi has said that his technology is still unpatented.


Andrea Rossi was invited to Massachusetts by the Senate’s minority leader, Bruce Tarr (left), a Republican from Gloucester. ‘‘If it works, I want this technology to be developed and manufactured in Massachusetts,’’ Tarr said of cold fusion.


... Last month, he conducted a test of a small cold fusion power plant in Bologna, Italy, for an unnamed customer, who he said was impressed enough to purchase the unit.

Rossi said he has received orders from 12 more customers.


Tarr, who is active in alternative energy legislation, said he invited Rossi to put the state in line for hosting any prospective development of cold fusion.

“Knowing the reputation of cold fusion, I went in with a very healthy level of skepticism,’’ he said.

....
Tamarin said the meeting was mostly used to discuss the possibility of setting up manufacturing, rather than the validity of the science.

“Rossi said he was not ready for a full academic investigation of his technology because he doesn’t yet have full patent protection,’’ Tamarin said. “That’s consistent with it not working, but it’s also consistent with it working very well.’’

(Excerpt) Read more at bostonglobe.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: cmns; coldfusion; ecat; lenr
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To: Secret Agent Man; Jim Robinson
Wanting the thing to run for 5-6 hours free from outside generators supplying more power than the e-cat is outputting is not asking for perfection.

Concur -- That it ain't! The herd of e-Cats did not do as well as would have been projected from the best single e-Cat run.

If each e-Cat has its own will like this, and it looks like e-Cats can't be reused so it's not just a matter of finding "good" ones, then herds of e-Cats will continue to disappoint, as will most individual e-Cats.

I do not want to see this made a Federal project, and it is beginning to look to me like yes, kevmo is a shill for it, argufying even the most logical points I've made. That sort of advocacy would be beyond the pale for FR which is why I am flagging Jim Rob.

51 posted on 11/29/2011 3:00:46 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: Titus-Maximus
"What is so strange about this is that this machine is so damn simple it can be examined in a day. What are we talking about here? Stop with the patent nonsense.

Have you ever had IP stolen?? I have....it's damned frustrating. So the issue is not "nonsense", but very real.

52 posted on 11/29/2011 3:56:01 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Kevmo; Johnny B.
Then why do you insist on perfection from the LENR crowd but give tons of leeway to the hot fusion crowd? It is raising the bar for one side while lowering it for the other.

(Note: I addressed JohnnyB because I mention links he has provided in previous posts.)

Let's see.

1. Hot fusion is known to work. Every day, everyone who is not visually impaired can see a huge hot fusion reactor up in the sky. The challenge is not to "prove" a well-known physical process, but to contain it so that it can be used as a viable energy source on earth.

2. Cold fusion has not been convincingly demonstrated, not by bona fide scientists, and certainly not by Rossi. If we are to believe that Rossi somehow stumbled upon cold fusion in his garage (and was able to recognize the process despite his lack of any scientific training), the process would be simple enough that we'd see it spontaneously occurring. A lightning strike would be sufficient to initiate the process. We have yet to see cold fusion occur under natural conditions.

3. If Rossi had a genuine process, it would be a simple matter to allow independent investigators demonstrate it without Rossi being anywhere near the demonstration. There are really only a few measurements that need to be made to demonstrate actual cold fusion. Independent investigators put a measured amount of defined (with regard to isotopic composition, etc.) starting material in. They initiate the reaction, carefully measuring all inputs/outputs of the device. They analyze the ending material and show that its isotopic composition is consistent with that expected if cold fusion were taking place. The compositions of the input and output materials should closely match the theoretical equations that anyone with a basic knowledge of chemistry and a paper and pencil can generate.

The failure of Rossi to perform any such analysis, much less to allow his eCat out of his sight in order for such tests to be done independently, is convincing evidence that such tests cannot be made. And the only reason for such tests to be impossible is that the eCat consists of nothing more than shipping containers and some other supplies picked up in various places and cobbled together to look impressive. And, even at that, Rossi doesn't do such a great job. At least some of the conmen in the past (thanks to JohnnyB for linking their stories) showed a bit of artistic flair when constructive their sham devices.

53 posted on 11/29/2011 3:56:52 AM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck; Secret Agent Man; Jim Robinson; Kevmo
Powder..patch..ball FIRE!

I do not want to see this made a Federal project, and it is beginning to look to me like yes, kevmo is a shill for it, argufying even the most logical points I've made. That sort of advocacy would be beyond the pale for FR which is why I am flagging Jim Rob.

You are making accusations against another member for posting on a PING list. Your obnoxious squatting on every thread should be more of an issue than Kevno posting information that some people ARE interested in following.

54 posted on 11/29/2011 4:01:28 AM PST by BallandPowder
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To: Secret Agent Man
"Wanting the thing to run for 5-6 hours free from outside generators supplying more power than the e-cat is outputting is not asking for perfection."

Not true. There is ZERO evidence that the generator was supplying more than the power needed to run pumps and auxiliary devices during the self-sustain mode period. This is TOTALLY speculation from the skeptic crowd.

"The thing was supposed to run 1 MW but Rossi said there was a problem and it could only do about half that. The generators were connected to it all the time outputting 500 KW and the e-cat put out about 480 KW."

Also incorrect. The unit "did" run at 1 MW in "power modulated mode" exactly as specified. When switched to "self-sustained mode", instabilities in the system required reduction to the stated 480KW.

"And keep in mind I would love to see something like an e-cat work. To date according to the descriptions of the tests conducted and released, I don’t believe this has been proven."

If you only read the speculations of the skeptics, you'll end up with that picture.

55 posted on 11/29/2011 4:12:07 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

You can sign advisors up to non-disclosure agreements, for 20 years, and prevent them from using the technology for their own commercial gain. This is done all the time. Many new technologies are analyzed prior to receiving a patent. So this is a red herring, and the fact that the patent office does not issue cold fusion patents means these ECAT Cats will have to do something a little more creative.

This is an easy problem to get around. The IP argument is a joke. It is making energy from nothing which is their biggest hurdle.


56 posted on 11/29/2011 6:25:14 AM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: exDemMom

I am not so sure to say “cold fusion” is not occurring anywhere. The Pons Fleischmann experiment has been duplicated over 14,000 times, yet it is not understood, nor is it predictable and commercial. There is something happening and people are working on it. Sixty Minutes did the a show on an Israeli company that has made strides in the field.

It may come to nothing, but there needs to be more scientific work done to explain it.


57 posted on 11/29/2011 6:33:17 AM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: Titus-Maximus
"You can sign advisors up to non-disclosure agreements, for 20 years, and prevent them from using the technology for their own commercial gain. This is done all the time. Many new technologies are analyzed prior to receiving a patent.

Unless, of course, the "non-disclosure/non-use" party's lawyer finds a loophole. If you believe that such agreements are "air-tight", then more fool you. We had a VERY good lawyer write it. The opposing attorney STILL found a way around.

So this is a red herring, and the fact that the patent office does not issue cold fusion patents means these ECAT Cats will have to do something a little more creative.

Which is precisely what Rossi is doing. It's called "trade secret".

"This is an easy problem to get around. The IP argument is a joke.

Still can't agree with that. My direct experience says otherwise. We HAD an issued patent, and non-disclosure/non-use, and our "partner" STILL managed to weasel around both.

"It is making energy from nothing which is their biggest hurdle."

Bit of prejudice there??? I don't think any of the CF/LENR/LANR researchers consider their work "making energy from nothing".

58 posted on 11/29/2011 7:02:56 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog; All
Nytek is being quoted as saying last August that they know exactly what is in the reactor powder Rossi is using and why he has only short operating times.(Free Energy Truth)

There is even a DIY site that says they use copper, iron, nickel, some metal hydrides plus a frequency generator and have a working device.

Rossi better hurry those sales along, that heat he feels ain't no e-cat.

59 posted on 11/29/2011 7:14:06 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Kevmo
http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/.../nasa-confirms-widom-larsen-theory.html - Cached - Similar

"Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Next Big Future does not exist."

ROTFLMAO!

60 posted on 11/29/2011 7:35:03 AM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: Kevmo
***No, but in the meantime Tokomak hot-fusion boys take money from your pocket while the LENR boys don’t, and yet you’re all over these LENR threads squawking about how things oughtta be. Maybe I can’t hear you over all that SQUAWKING.

You are such a putz. So, what is it like to look into the mirror in the morning and see a coward looking back, what is that like?

Are the nightmares getting better or do you still dream of being picked on in school?

Then you come here, an anonymous place and strut around and posture like the keyboard commando you are even to the point that you think you can tell who can and cannot post on these threads.

At least the Tokomak has produced something and it's used for more than fusion production. Your logic makes no sense. The Tokomak hasn't broken even so let's see if we can get gas from water??

61 posted on 11/29/2011 8:16:02 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: count-your-change
"Nytek is being quoted as saying last August that they know exactly what is in the reactor powder Rossi is using and why he has only short operating times.(Free Energy Truth)"

Nytek?? A player I'm not familiar with. I know there is an on-line Swedish science magazine with similar name. I know Brillouin Energy made similar comments, but this is a new one on me.

"There is even a DIY site that says they use copper, iron, nickel, some metal hydrides plus a frequency generator and have a working device."

Again, one I've not heard of. I know a guy calling himself "Chan" has claimed replication on Vortex-L. I'd be interested in more info.

"Rossi better hurry those sales along, that heat he feels ain't no e-cat.

Well, Defkalion is supposed to make their big announcement tomorrow. If it turns out to be true that there is a formula that will let anybody with a couple of pieces of pipe and a cartridge heater replicate the results, the "hot physics" types and the Vortex-L naysayers are going to look REALLY BAD.

62 posted on 11/29/2011 8:17:56 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Kevmo

That’s a pretty cowardly response to moonman62, but you should be used to that.


63 posted on 11/29/2011 8:19:34 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Kevmo
LENR is contributing to particle physics research also. But not on your dime. LENR is better than Tokomak in that respect. It’s also better in the respect that it has generated only a max 6MJ per run while LENR experiments generate an AVERAGe of 100MJ per run.

Isn't 100MJ equal to less than a barrel of oil? 1GJ is equal to the energy in one barrel of oil.1

Where do you get these numbers?

1: Thanks to Wiki...

64 posted on 11/29/2011 9:08:54 AM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

I think Ny Teknik was quoting Defkalion. From Free Energy Truth:

“Excerpt of Ny Teknik’s conversation with Alexandros Xanthoulis (Defkalion Spokesman) August 5, 2011

“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months, but I’m not going to play game behind Rossi. I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will. But his problem is scientifically solved by us.”

My comment wasn’t clear on that.

The DIY site is the Chan site, Buildthecat or buildcat.com something like that.


65 posted on 11/29/2011 9:12:10 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Ah! That makes much more sense! Thanks for the clarification.


66 posted on 11/29/2011 9:20:28 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog
Earlier I tried to post a thread on it but it was shot down , seems the blogsite didn't work or exist or something and I didn't feel like correcting it.

Anyway the gist of Defkalion’s comments were that they had solved Rossi’s short run time problem, knew exactly what formula he was using but wouldn't say.
Defkalion spokesman jabbed at Rossi by saying, ‘I'm no cheater’.

The Word War continues.

67 posted on 11/29/2011 9:30:03 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Titus-Maximus
I am not so sure to say “cold fusion” is not occurring anywhere. The Pons Fleischmann experiment has been duplicated over 14,000 times, yet it is not understood, nor is it predictable and commercial. There is something happening and people are working on it. Sixty Minutes did the a show on an Israeli company that has made strides in the field.

I see that "replicated over 14,000 times" claim a lot, but cannot find any reliable documentation of successful replication claims. Surely, if cold fusion occurred and was replicatable, there would be publications in peer-reviewed journals reporting these replications. Instead, cold fusion seems to fall into the "pathological science" category--where a handful of scientists/aficionados just cannot bear to let go of a hypothesis, no matter how little evidence there is in support of the hypothesis.

Physical law indicates that there is a very high energy barrier to fusion, which is why it must take place at such high temperatures. Cold fusion would be a godsend--a way to achieve energy-producing fusion, while having only to worry about the radioactive emissions (which we have a lot of collective experience in shielding), and not about attempting to contain a reaction occurring at thousands of degrees would be great.

68 posted on 11/29/2011 10:13:33 AM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

You are wrong - NDA’s are signed all the time in Venture Capital deals. Else the business could not be done. There are tons of scientific consultants and laboratories, and they sign NDA agreements all the time and they evaluate thousands of products, processes and catalysts - pre-patent!

The IP is still a red herring for evaluation. Get over it.


69 posted on 11/29/2011 10:33:27 AM PST by Titus-Maximus (Light from Light)
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To: exDemMom

“Surely, if cold fusion occurred and was replicatable, there would be publications in peer-reviewed journals reporting these replications. Instead, cold fusion seems to fall into the “pathological science” category—where a handful of scientists/aficionados just cannot bear to let go of a hypothesis, no matter how little evidence there is in support of the hypothesis.”

Go here:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/LibFrame1.html

“Physical law indicates that there is a very high energy barrier to fusion, which is why it must take place at such high temperatures. Cold fusion would be a godsend—a way to achieve energy-producing fusion, while having only to worry about the radioactive emissions (which we have a lot of collective experience in shielding), and not about attempting to contain a reaction occurring at thousands of degrees would be great.”

Don’t look now, but it’s been done. Latest indications are that the theory is finally falling into place as to how the Coulomb barrier is circumvented.

There’s a PDF about the ICCF-16 proceedings that has much detail. Also see stuff on the net by George Miley, and Brian Ahern’s patent.


70 posted on 11/29/2011 10:35:18 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: count-your-change
Nytek is being quoted as saying last August that they know exactly what is in the reactor powder Rossi is using and why he has only short operating times.(Free Energy Truth)

Does that also explain why it needs to warm up for four or five hours? I guess we can forget about the six month refueling cycle too.

71 posted on 11/29/2011 10:36:35 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Moonman62

I suspect the warm up period is to see what’s going to happen to the reactor. Will it go unstable? Will it work at all? Or should everyone run for the nearest exit?

Six month’s fuel? Hmmm....With how much use?


72 posted on 11/29/2011 12:21:01 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

I repeat, it is not asking for perfection to have the unit running free of 500 kw generators. You say “not true” to this. That’s not even a proper answer to that statement. It either IS asking for perfection or it IS NOT asking for perfection. I believe it’s not. I’m coming out right now and saying I don’t think that is too much to ask for. If these units cannot work without 500 KW generators always present, running at whatever load, even for safety concerns, that’s something that has to be considered as a real cost, and factored into the efficiency of these units.

The article I read about the test never made any mention that the unit was able to generate 1 MW of power at any time. If you have an article that shows it ran at 1 MW for awhile, I’ll certainly read it.

What I did gather from what I have read about the test was that the generators connected all during the test had the capacity to generate 500 KW of power, and the e-cat generated 480 KW of power during the 5 1/2-6 hr test run.

If you want to give me other sources that are independent I’d be happy to read them.

All I am saying is the test would appear to be more convincing if he could run the e-cat unit in all its modes for a good number of hours, without a power source potentially larger than the output of the e-cat itself. You may believe that such a test would not more convincing, but I believe most people - and particularly this group you refer to as skeptics - would see that as very good evidence it works.


73 posted on 11/29/2011 1:10:33 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: BallandPowder; All; Jim Robinson

IIRC the Kevmo moniker has been tied to a California LENR advocacy group, which at one point had whimsical “cats” in a group of persons forming a headline in a paper.

This is way more than “information” to a “ping list.” If the advocacy stopped at the lead article it would be one matter. But! This Kevmo is argufying for more US governmental largesse (basically, making the argument that since America has long subsidized Tokamak research, it has an obligation to subsidize Rossi e-Cats too, just because they claim to sometimes put out more power than Tokamaks do). It falls on deaf ears that many would want to see Tokamaks go private too.

I was a mere skeptic about what Rossi has supposedly found, but this kicks the action into a whole nother plane, a US subsidy one. If this is not grounds for Freepers to say Enough, what is?


74 posted on 11/29/2011 1:34:55 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: Wonder Warthog
You linked to a list of conference proceedings. Granted, I didn't look at every reference in the list, but I did not see any that referred to articles published in peer-reviewed journals.

I already knew that there have been several cold fusion conferences, especially in the first few years after (the now discredited) Fleischmann–Pons report.

I wasn't very convinced when I downloaded JOURNAL OF CONDENSED MATTER NUCLEAR SCIENCE, Vol. 4, Feb 2011 from that LENR website, started skimming through it, and quickly found "In the recent past, Focardi and Rossi have reported spectacular energy gains in the range from 80 to somewhat over 400 from Ni–H experiments [30]" (p. 13, para. 1).

Scammers aside, this topic has all the appearance of a pathological science.

If you want to convince me and the other skeptics, you need to show the evidence. A good bit of evidence would be articles in a variety of peer-reviewed physics/chemistry journals, describing replicable experiments.

75 posted on 11/29/2011 2:20:18 PM PST by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: Secret Agent Man
"I repeat, it is not asking for perfection to have the unit running free of 500 kw generators. You say “not true” to this. That’s not even a proper answer to that statement. It either IS asking for perfection or it IS NOT asking for perfection. I believe it’s not. I’m coming out right now and saying I don’t think that is too much to ask for. If these units cannot work without 500 KW generators always present, running at whatever load, even for safety concerns, that’s something that has to be considered as a real cost, and factored into the efficiency of these units.

You will NEVER see the E-cat running without being hooked up to a rather substantial source of electric power, whether that be "mains power" from a dedicated hookup, or generator power as used in the 28 Oct. test. Reason....the E-cat requires a significant "startup energy". Why did Rossi use a genset. More than likely because he didn't want to pay for the installation of a dedicated power circuit in a rented facility. Understand...the 1MW E-cat is designed to be "field installed" to a single dedicated starting circuit, and is undoubtedly wired up that way in the shipping container. So, Rossi did what any GOOD engineer would have done....he rented a generator for the one-use demo. It would have taken a significant effort (wasted) to separate the "startup circuit" wiring from the "parasitic power" circuit (pumps, instrumentation, etc.).

This is PRECISELY the situation you have in your car. A serious (but short term) current is needed to "get cranked up", and you also still need to generate a lesser current to run your cars "parasitic loads" (and to re-charge the source of your startup energy).

"The article I read about the test never made any mention that the unit was able to generate 1 MW of power at any time. If you have an article that shows it ran at 1 MW for awhile, I’ll certainly read it."

I suggest you read more articles. No single article will ever have all the details available. As to my leading you around by the nose to the data...not gonna happen. I research subjects to educate myself, and don't keep a "stock" of links to argue points. Life is too short and I've got better things to do. Believe me or don't. I neither lie nor exaggerate. The data is there as I have stated.

"What I did gather from what I have read about the test was that the generators connected all during the test had the capacity to generate 500 KW of power, and the e-cat generated 480 KW of power during the 5 1/2-6 hr test run.

Which is the SPECULATION of the skeptics. They have no evidence that the power output was that low OR that the input power was coming from the genset. They are ASSUMING, with no justification other than their "it's a scam" viewpoint, that the genset was providing all the power.

"If you want to give me other sources that are independent I’d be happy to read them."

See above about not chasing down data I've already looked at.

"All I am saying is the test would appear to be more convincing if he could run the e-cat unit in all its modes for a good number of hours, without a power source potentially larger than the output of the e-cat itself. You may believe that such a test would not more convincing, but I believe most people - and particularly this group you refer to as skeptics - would see that as very good evidence it works."

If that's all you want, go look up the 18-hour no-steam "single E-Cat" test results. You can find them summarized at the LENR-CANR.org website. There's plenty of evidence. The naysayers either find an imaginary reason that it has to be wrong, or they simply ignore it.

76 posted on 11/29/2011 2:44:31 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

Since your last post I looked around at about a dozen other articles and none of them ever reported the unit ever ran at 1 MW.

They reported that a “glitch” was found (none explaining what the glitch was), and that the customer had to make a decision to run it either 1 MW in powered mode or half-power in self-sustain mode. They had to make the choice before it started up, and they chose to do the self-sustain at half power.

As far as I can find it never ran 1 MW at all. they had to pick either 1 MW/powered or half power/self-sustain.


77 posted on 11/29/2011 3:24:44 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

So, Madoff was instrumental in creating NASDAQ ~ Hmm.


78 posted on 11/29/2011 3:29:29 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Wonder Warthog

Also if it was you running the test, and your half-power output is about 500 kw, if you had to have outside generator power powering a cooling system, wouldn’t you do your best to pick a generator not capable of producing equal or greater power than your supposed output power of what you’re testing is? So that nobody could ever raise the spectre of the generator possibly being wired in to produce the output results?

In the articles I found it was mentione that the cooling pumps were not running at full capacity, maybe a third of their capacity. Sounds like he might have gotten by using a smaller ‘genset’ as you called it. If a 150 kw or 200 kw genset could have supplied the necessary power to the pumps but the output of the e-cat was still 480 kw, that would be a lot harder to argue with.


79 posted on 11/29/2011 3:32:12 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
The Tokamaks failed ~ they are long overdue for consignment to the junkyard.
80 posted on 11/29/2011 3:32:40 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Kevmo
The Tokamak's get "hot" from stray ionizing radiation ~ which rapidly deteriorates their structural integrity and turns them into radioactive junk that has to be watched over for the next 10,000 years!

They never stop costing us taxpayers money.

I had to laugh at the idea we might put that sort of technology in private hands without government supervision of any kind.

81 posted on 11/29/2011 3:47:08 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

It really doesn’t matter what they are, except that they are equipment for the purpose of investigating hot fusion processes at the particle physics level. Nobody really expected a Tokamak to break even. The Federal government shouldn’t be asked to pick winners and losers, especially by means of subsidy.


82 posted on 11/29/2011 4:50:28 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: muawiyah

Now are you a contrarian troll too, with your own share of straw man arguments? Most nuclear reactors (they furnish about half the electric juice up here in Ill-noise) are in “private hands” and yet that doesn’t mean pieces of scrap get trucked out to landfills and other foolish things.


83 posted on 11/29/2011 4:53:39 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Those private reactors are subject to AEC commissioning and decommissioning. Nothing goes in or out, or off or on, without government approval.

The private part is about building the containment facility, the reactor facility, etc. The government part is about regulating every single step in the use of the fissile material.

Still radioactive CRP ends up in landfills.

84 posted on 11/29/2011 5:00:44 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Do a Google.com search for “nuclear waste in landfills” ~ kind of jarring!


85 posted on 11/29/2011 5:03:16 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

This has ceased to happen in the US precisely because there IS “government supervision” — which does not equate to government OWNERSHIP like you would have us believe it does. Would it were the EPA concentrated on issues like that rather than penalizing homeowners for doing things in perpetually dry “wetlands.”


86 posted on 11/29/2011 5:09:14 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: HiTech RedNeck
"I was a mere skeptic about what Rossi has supposedly found, but this kicks the action into a whole nother plane, a US subsidy one. If this is not grounds for Freepers to say Enough, what is?"

If you followed LENR at all, you would know that it has been developed to this point without signficant gov't funding at all, while the "hot fusion" effort has been sucking down billions upon billions of dollars with negligible results.

And it isn't just about LENR. There are several different approaches to "hot fusion" that have more promise than the Tokamak (Bussard Polywell, for one). But the tokamak crowd has managed to monopolize virtually all fusion funding.

"Putting all one's eggs in a single basket" has never been good policy.

"I was a mere skeptic about what Rossi has supposedly found, but this kicks the action into a whole nother plane, a US subsidy one. If this is not grounds for Freepers to say Enough, what is?"

Guess what. Your purist position that "government shouldn't fund research" has never existed in the history of the US. It started with the Lewis and Clark expedition, and has continued ever since. As an entirely practical matter, the US has found over and over again that funding research is essential to national survival.

87 posted on 11/29/2011 6:43:33 PM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

Looking for land to occupy isn’t the same as buying temperamental gadgets from a convicted con man. And everybody must be DEAF as I said the Tokomak should be private, yes with the disposal of its ultimate waste supervised by authorized public authorities. Anyhow, it is very easy to boondoggle something that the market would have quickly euthanized, like Solyndra. I do not share your view that largesse should be bestowed upon Rossi boxes.


88 posted on 11/29/2011 7:01:37 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: muawiyah

They never stop costing us taxpayers money.
***That sorta leaves me with a sickening feeling in the pit of my gut.


89 posted on 11/29/2011 8:05:15 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Lx

Where do you get these numbers?
***If it weren’t for the seagulls, FR could have a proper FAQ on LENR.

The bar that cold fusion should be compared to isn’t garage experiments, it’s $10B Tokomak reactors that produce less than 100th as many Joules as these LENR experiments.

That’s the thing about cold fusion — the bar keeps getting raised for it while the bar for plasma fusion gets lowered.
According to Jed Rothwell, the excess heat experiment has been repeated worldwide roughly 14,000 times successfully according to an estimate by J. He (Front. Phys. China, 2007). There are 4,700 authors in his database. He says at least 2,000 have authored or co-authored experimental papers. He has counted major journal peer-reviewed papers reporting excess heat — more than 150 papers with more than 300 authors and co-authors in 50 publications. There are about 150 other papers describing other nuclear effects such as tritium and neutrons. They far outnumber the negative reports. In 1989 there were 20 negative peer-reviewed papers with 135 authors and coauthors. The reasons these early efforts failed are now well understood. There are also roughly 2,500 non peer reviewed papers including some excellent papers published by the U.S. Navy, Mitsubishi, Amoco, the Japanese Nat. Synchrotron Lab., Los Alamos, BARC and others that are much better than most peer-reviewed papers, in his opinion. You can read ~500 papers at LENR-CANR.org or at a university or national laboratory library. Most of the papers at LENR-CANR.org are copied from conference proceedings and from the libraries at Los Alamos and Georgia Tech, with permission. Plus he has copies of an additional 1,100 peer-reviewed papers that he cannot get permission to upload, regrettably.
http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_rel...e_if_you_say_so

More papers:
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/S...tedPapers.shtml

A typical cold fusion experiment using Seebeck calorimeter
costs roughly $50,000 including all equipment. Some have produced 50 to 300 megajoules in one run. They have achieved the two goals hot fusion has failed to reach for 60 years: breakeven and full ignition.

The Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor (TFTR) at the Princeton University Plasma Physics Laboratory, U.S. Department of Energy cost “about a billion dollars” to construct and $70 million a year to operate. It produced 6 megajoules in one experiment, the world record run for hot fusion.

40 posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:29:59 PM by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)


90 posted on 11/29/2011 8:13:36 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Lx

You are such a putz. So, what is it like to look into the mirror in the morning and see a coward looking back, what is that like?

***You know what, I’m giving up on you. This is the 3rd thread in a row, so that’s that. I’ll generate a standard ‘ignore me’ post.


91 posted on 11/29/2011 8:18:35 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Lx

This will be my standard post to you that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. Maybe you should sign up for a few more years of therapy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2813439/posts?page=91#91

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2811976/posts?page=165#165

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2811976/posts?page=164#164

• Sven Kullander On Rossi And eCat
Saturday, November 26, 2011 1:55:59 PM • 164 of 169
Lx to Kevmo
Again with the I know you are but what am I.
Is it possible for you to post something original instead of cribbing my posts?
I see...years of therapy on your horizon, better start now.
It’s really helped me be nicer, more sympathetic and understanding.
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92 posted on 11/29/2011 8:29:18 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Moonman62

This will be my standard post to you that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. But if it offends you to the point that you get it removed like my prior innocuous citation then I’ll have to come up with some other ‘ignore button’ post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62

This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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93 posted on 11/29/2011 8:34:02 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: exDemMom

1. Hot fusion is known to work.
***Then where is our hot fusion cars & jet packs?

2. Cold fusion has not been convincingly demonstrated, not by bona fide scientists, and certainly not by Rossi.
***Uh huh. So when his customer laid down €2M and put in an order for 12 more, it was not convincingly demonstrated.

3. If Rossi had a genuine process, it would be a simple matter to allow independent investigators demonstrate it without Rossi being anywhere near the demonstration.
***Sure it would be simple, if he had international patent protection. But he doesn’t, so it isn’t.


94 posted on 11/29/2011 8:39:06 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
"Looking for land to occupy isn’t the same as buying temperamental gadgets from a convicted con man.

If you think that the Lewis and Clark expedition was only about "looking for land to occupy", you're as ignorant of history as you are of LENR. There have been any number of very valid researchers looking into "cold fusion" since Pons and Fleischmann who were most definitely NOT "con men", and could have been legitimately funded. Unfortunately, the "hot physicists" have pretty much had a monopoly on the reins of "who gets funded" and have frozen out pretty much ALL research funding for CF, except for a very few tiny efforts within DARPA.

"And everybody must be DEAF as I said the Tokomak should be private, yes with the disposal of its ultimate waste supervised by authorized public authorities."

I heard you and I disagree with your position that it should "be private". Like it or not, there are times in the development of technologies when the "private market" simply will NOT fund research. "Seed Money" from the gov't has proven, as a pragmatic fact, to benefit society in very practical terms, as witness this conversation we are having and the means by which we are having it.

"Anyhow, it is very easy to boondoggle something that the market would have quickly euthanized, like Solyndra.

"Crony capitalism" like Solyndar is indeed bad, and should be rooted out. OTOH, fostering competition is good, and most well-managed federal R&D funding does precisely that.

To give you a very personal example. My company has been working with the gov't to develop technology to detect biowarfare agents. At the earliest stage, quite a few companies had small "seed funding" contracts. As the different technological approaches were tested, various different technologies proved "non-viable". One of our competitors was from California, and had an "in" with some powerful folks in Washington. Despite the fact that their approach had failed to deliver not just once, but several times, they managed to get themselves back into the process through their "crony capitalism" contacts. In the last stages of the project, it came down the my firm and them. Fortunately for us, they "flopped" again, and our technology is now being implemented (by a private company under federal contract) with us as a subcontractor.

"I do not share your view that largesse should be bestowed upon Rossi boxes."

"Assume"....ASS-U-ME....the "Rossi boxes" at this point don't NEED federal funding. But the overall field of LENR has probably been set back 10 or 15 years due to the lack of "seed funding" during early stages. As I said above...monopolies OF ANY SORT are bad.

95 posted on 11/30/2011 6:58:13 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Secret Agent Man
"Since your last post I looked around at about a dozen other articles and none of them ever reported the unit ever ran at 1 MW."

Here's the gist of what I read. The 1MW E-Cat was started and stabilized in "power modulated mode" (i.e. some power provided to heat the reactors). After stabilization, it ran in "power modulated mode" for some period of time (length of which I don't recall), during which its output was measured at 1MW with a COP of 6:1 (exactly on spec). At that point in time, the customer was asked whether he wanted to continue for the rest of the run in "power modulated mode" at the 1MW level, or in "self sustaining mode". The customer chose the latter option. Due to the "finickiness" of the "self sustaining mode" it was found necessary to decrease the run power to ~480KW. NO HEATING POWER WAS DRAWN FROM THE GENSET during that period....only parasitic loads. The "pathological skeptics" are ASSUMING that the generator provided all the power and the whole thing was a fake. There was certainly a means of measuring the applied power...this is fundamental to the whole test.

"They had to make the choice before it started up, and they chose to do the self-sustain at half power.As far as I can find it never ran 1 MW at all. they had to pick either 1 MW/powered or half power/self-sustain.

I have read NO articles even hinting at the above, and it contradicts a lot of the other tests (in particular the 8 October test, which was a virtual duplicate in methodology to the 28 October test.....just with a single E-Cat instead of many).

96 posted on 11/30/2011 7:12:42 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Secret Agent Man
"Also if it was you running the test, and your half-power output is about 500 kw, if you had to have outside generator power powering a cooling system, wouldn’t you do your best to pick a generator not capable of producing equal or greater power than your supposed output power of what you’re testing is? So that nobody could ever raise the spectre of the generator possibly being wired in to produce the output results?"

The genset had to provide not just "cooling"(and other parasitic loads) but STARTUP power, so it had to be as big as it was. See my earlier point about splitting the "parasitic loads" from the "startup load". Rossi simply chose not to do that. You or I might have chose otherwise.

But your fundamental flawed assumption is that no measurements of power from the genset were made. It is ridiculous to assume that, as that is the key to what the "validation engineer" was looking for. Do you "really" think that he didn't make measurements to determine that the supplied load was reduced??

97 posted on 11/30/2011 7:18:01 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: Kevmo

.....bet Kevmo, just a few threads back you said it was fully patented ..... “perhaps because Rossi has said that his technology is still unpatented.”


98 posted on 11/30/2011 7:21:06 AM PST by dila813
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To: exDemMom
Really? Look in the sky and see what? Do you think that's ALL hot fusion?

Look, hot fusion goes on INSIDE THE SUN. What you actually see for the most part is the corona. According to Widom and Larsen the process that takes place there is actually the same as what you call Cold Fusion (but it's not quite cold. In fact, it's intensely hot. Still, the way it progresses follows the same pathways they propose for LENR processes that've successfully shown the production of excess heat).

This is why you have to read the Widom-Larson paper. Also, there's a physicist at Purdue University who is looking at the exact same process from a slightly different view point and he's found he can tackle it with reference to Bose-Einstein condensate theory.

BTW, that's what the guys DOING THE WORK say is going on.

Now I'm ot a physicist and don't pretend to be one, but if you want to claim you see HOT FUSION on the Sun you gots' to show us the paper that puts forth the theory behind that process. And that's because I just named three fellows who say what you see on the Sun is NOT Hot Fusion.

99 posted on 11/30/2011 9:43:02 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Wonder Warthog

I made no such assumption. I never said that. But the articles did not report this and apparently if this was done, this technical info was either not shared and reported, or was shared and not reported. I tend to believe from so many different reports on the test at least one article would have included this information if it was given out.

Given Rossi’s background, a ‘reasonable person’ would have a higher degree of skepticism about what he’s doing. Again, I’d love it if it works, but given his past, he’s really his own worst advocate.

It might be a good idea for him to split required startup power from the cooling power. Then turn off the power for startup, and let the unit run for 3-4 weeks in standalone mode.


100 posted on 11/30/2011 9:58:13 AM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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