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PEARL HARBOR: THE BACK STORY DICK MORRIS TV: HISTORY VIDEO!
Dick Morris.Com ^ | December 10,2011 | Dick Morris

Posted on 12/10/2011 12:59:40 PM PST by Hojczyk

In this video commentary, I discuss how FDR knew the Japanese would have to attack us and draw us into the war…and counted on it.

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/pearl-harbor-the-back-story-dick-morris-tv-history-video/

(Excerpt) Read more at dickmorris.com ...


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1 posted on 12/10/2011 12:59:45 PM PST by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

Soner or later the Japanese or the Germans would have done it. We knew we would be drawn in eventually, it was no secret. No one knew when or where any attack would happen, they didn’t think Japan even had the ability to project force all the way to Hawaii apparently.


2 posted on 12/10/2011 1:02:08 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Hojczyk

And Truman knew there were many communists in Roosevelts administration..
AND DID NOTHING ABOUT THEM...... NOTHING!... on purpose..


3 posted on 12/10/2011 1:10:56 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Hojczyk

Morris should stick to political punditry.


4 posted on 12/10/2011 1:15:05 PM PST by fso301
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To: GeronL
I can't agree with “no one knew where or when”. We knew that Japan had the carrier forces to attack Hawaii and had broken their code, The whereabouts of the Japanese carrier force was unknown, which should have put us on a heightened alert but FDR, Marshall, et al. were welcoming an attack. FDR was truly upset when he gave his “day of infamy” speech because he didn't think that the attack would cripple us so.
He was rarely double crossed and was pissed off! It was FDR's saying, “In politics, nothing happens by accident”.

Read “At Dawn We Slept”, the commission blamed the Army and the Navy (Admirals and Generals are expendable)but never even mentioned the White House. My guess is that it was a set up to put the blame in Hawaii.

5 posted on 12/10/2011 1:23:33 PM PST by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: BatGuano
Get a hold of “And I Was There” by Admiral Layton. He was the intelligence officer to Kimmel (and later Nimitz), and offers a great perspective of the state of codebreaking and intelligence before and after Dec. 7.

I don't believe we had broken the Naval operational code by then, only the diplomatic code. We could read the “East Wind Rain” message, but couldn't put a location of where the attack would be.

6 posted on 12/10/2011 1:40:00 PM PST by al44
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To: BatGuano; Hojczyk
I can't agree with “no one knew where or when”. We knew that Japan had the carrier forces to attack Hawaii and had broken their code,

Japan had a naval force that could strike pretty much anywhere in the Pacific and Indian Ocean. Hawaii is but one speck in that vast expanse of potential targets.

The whereabouts of the Japanese carrier force was unknown,

Incorrect. Through masterful radio deception, the Japanese main fleet was believed by U.S. intelligence to be in home waters.

which should have put us on a heightened alert

U.S. forces in Hawaii had recently been on high alert. U.S. forces in the Philippines were on high alert. MacArthur had all available aircraft in the air but the timing was a few hours off. The Japanese struck the airfields after the planes returned to base to refuel.

FDR, Marshall, et al. were welcoming an attack.

That FDR was seeking a way to join the war in Europe is no secret. The Japanese were of secondary concern to FDR.

FDR was truly upset when he gave his “day of infamy” speech because he didn't think that the attack would cripple us so. He was rarely double crossed and was pissed off! It was FDR's saying, “In politics, nothing happens by accident”.

If FDR was pissed, it was most likely because with ample indication of imminent hostilities, U.S. commanders at Pearl allowed themselves to be so unprepared.

Read “At Dawn We Slept”, the commission blamed the Army and the Navy (Admirals and Generals are expendable)but never even mentioned the White House. My guess is that it was a set up to put the blame in Hawaii.

The only ones surprised by the attack were U.S. commanders at Pearl harbor.

7 posted on 12/10/2011 1:52:23 PM PST by fso301
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To: al44
My Uncle was an anti-aircraft gunner, stationed at Schofield Barracks. In late November they received orders from San Francisco to store all ammunition underground. When the field was attacked, he was in Honolulu on a weekend pass. He made it back to the base but had nothing to return fire with. I don't recall if the airfield was attacked during both waves or not.

To the day he died, he maintained that someone at the top knew something bad was about to happen in Hawaii. He was transferred to the ETO in 1944.

I'll try to find the book, thanks.

Diplomatic code and Purple (operational)code were not the same. Also, as in Germany, our intel was always reluctant to indicate to the enemy that we did have their code, ie. “Enigma” machine, we had to appear lucky.

8 posted on 12/10/2011 1:55:07 PM PST by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: GeronL; Hojczyk
Soner or later the Japanese or the Germans would have done it. We knew we would be drawn in eventually, it was no secret. No one knew when or where any attack would happen, they didn’t think Japan even had the ability to project force all the way to Hawaii apparently.

Too bad it couldn't have been for another year. That might have allowed enough time for the Germans and Russians to bleed each other white.

9 posted on 12/10/2011 1:57:34 PM PST by fso301
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To: BatGuano; Homer_J_Simpson

I saw that someone posted a copy of the FDR speech and some things were crossed out and replaced. It made the speech a lot more direct and a lot better, IMO. I guess speechwriters didn’t improve because I heard Reagan would change out a lot of weasel words too.


10 posted on 12/10/2011 2:00:32 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: BatGuano; al44
My Uncle was an anti-aircraft gunner, stationed at Schofield Barracks. In late November they received orders from San Francisco to store all ammunition underground

Which would correspond to U.S. forces going off high alert due to a belief that an attack would not occur while Japanese diplomatic efforts were underway in Washington DC.

11 posted on 12/10/2011 2:01:40 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301

Read the book and my following post re my uncle.


12 posted on 12/10/2011 2:03:40 PM PST by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: fso301

bump


13 posted on 12/10/2011 2:08:10 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: fso301
I always thought that the military establishment had their eyes on the Phillipines as the target. The fact that our planes were destroyed on the ground at Clark field a day later always struck me as criminal.
14 posted on 12/10/2011 2:10:17 PM PST by al44
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To: al44

A lot of people think there was total incompetence in the Philippines.


15 posted on 12/10/2011 2:12:35 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: fso301

That would be placing more trust in the Japanese than any reasonable person would at that time.


16 posted on 12/10/2011 2:33:21 PM PST by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: Hojczyk
Kemp Tolley in Cruise of the 'Lanikai" " swore that Roosevelt was trying to generate an incident with the Japs to get into war with them. Others have, to me, convincingly shown that Roosevelt wanted into the European war to the extent that he pussy-footed around the Japs, hoping they'd make the first move.

The Americans also abandoned the "let the Philippines go" at MacArthur's urging and moved a lot of war material there as a first line of defense, and thought sure the attack would come there - or in Malaya, but NEVER on stripped-down Hawaii. They also thought, along with some Japanese, that Japan would never be stupid enough to attack America.

However, their military had brainwashed themselves into thinking they could demoralize us with the Pearl Harbor attack and that by time we recovered, they have fortified all their forward bases to the point we wouldn't attack and instead sue for peace. The error in timing their declaration of war did nothing but piss us off. One wonders how united this country would have been if the attack had not turned out to be a "sneak attack".

Roosevelt must have dropped to his knees and thanked God when Hitler made the idiotic/suicidal declaration of war on the U.S. I think that after Pearl harbor, we would have been so pissed at the Japs that if Hitler had held off, we would have figured he was the Europeans' problem and gone full-bore after Japan.

I understand that he thought that by jumping in, the Japs would attack Russia and take the heat off him on that front, little realizing their interest lay in the southern oil fields of the Dutch East Indies.

Great scenarios for an alternate universe.

17 posted on 12/10/2011 2:37:39 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Hojczyk

There has been an interesting program about Pearl Harbor,
running on one of my satellite channels...History Channel, I guess, or Natl. Geo.
Covers time before, during, and after the attack, with plenty of old film footage.
I find it amazing that there was no intel that saw the attack coming, or that it was ignored.


18 posted on 12/10/2011 2:45:25 PM PST by AlexW
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To: BatGuano
Read the book and my following post re my uncle.

I haven't read the book but as I already pointed out, forces at Pearl had been on high alert but stood down in November when the Japanese peace delegation went to Washington.

The battleship was still thought of as king of the sea and U.S. navy thinking was that patrols would detect an approaching enemy fleet in time for the American fleet to set sail and met it in classic manner on the high seas.

That U.S. fighters were lined up wingtip to wingtip was to make them easier to protect against saboteurs.

19 posted on 12/10/2011 2:46:49 PM PST by fso301
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To: al44; GeronL
I always thought that the military establishment had their eyes on the Phillipines as the target.

True and that's because the Philippines lay in the path of the Japanese southward drive for raw materials in SE Asia and Indonesia.

The fact that our planes were destroyed on the ground at Clark field a day later always struck me as criminal.

You have to be careful here and go back to original sources. If I remember correctly, MacArthur was notified of the attack on Pearl Harbor but had not yet received orders to commence offensive action. Therefore, he didn't have the freedom to order a B-17 strike against Formosa.

The radar crew at Clark were inexperienced and the set may not have been properly working either. A network of ground based Filipino aircraft spotters were also used but for whatever reason, failed to sound the alarm in time.

MacArthur ordered the fighters up, but the timing was off and most were on the ground refueling when the Japanese bombers appeared over Clark.

20 posted on 12/10/2011 3:02:25 PM PST by fso301
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To: Hojczyk

Morris is an idiot. If follow the events in the fall of 1941, it becomes obvious that war is coming to the Pacific. It is simply a matter of when and where.

Pearl Harbor was a surprise because the Japanese had excellent security and kept radio silence. It help to have a US Army commander (Short) who was a day late and a dollar short. It was also a surprise because of the distance from Japan to Hawaii and the logistics miracle they had to pull off to even make the raid possible.

FDR knew war was coming, he knew we were not ready yet. He ran out of time.


21 posted on 12/10/2011 3:06:37 PM PST by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: fso301

If the Japanese had only invaded French possessions, it might not have even lifted an eyebrow.


22 posted on 12/10/2011 3:07:27 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: Oatka
The Americans also abandoned the "let the Philippines go" at MacArthur's urging and moved a lot of war material there as a first line of defense, and thought sure the attack would come there - or in Malaya, but NEVER on stripped-down Hawaii.

MacArthur's overall strategy was feasible assuming the Philippines could be resupplied. Even if every American fighter in the Philippines had been protected from the initial attacks, the success of the attack at Pearl doomed the Philippines.

23 posted on 12/10/2011 3:12:46 PM PST by fso301
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To: Oatka

The Imperial Japanese Army aircraft sank USS Panay (PR-5), a US Navy Gunboat operating under treaty rights in China, in 1937 and a Kreigsmarine U-Boat (U-552) had sunk USS Ruben James (DD-245) just over a month prior to Pearl Harbor. If those incidents didn’t cause a war, a dinky yacht in the South China Sea won’t.

The yacht was a spy ship, and too little too late in December 1941.


24 posted on 12/10/2011 3:14:52 PM PST by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: GeronL
If the Japanese had only invaded French possessions, it might not have even lifted an eyebrow.

That's my thinking too. However, Japan also needed oil from Indonesia which meant attacking the Free Dutch which may have drawn in the U.S. and British. Then there was the tin in Malasia which would have brought Japan into direct conflict with Britian.

25 posted on 12/10/2011 3:20:29 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301

In December 1941, MacArthur had one re-enforced US Infantry Division and ten divisions of almost untrained Philippine Army troops. His fight them on the beaches strategy was doomed. His troops were not trained enough to get into a mobile fight with the Imperial Japanese Army.

He then followed this up with criminal mismanagement of his logistics by not moving supplies to the Bataan peninsula before the war started. In fact he didn’t start moving supplies to Bataan and Corrigedor until well after the start of the war. Thousands of tons of supplies were destroyed instead of being sent to where they were needed. One tank company in central Luzon could only attack with one platoon instead of the whole company due to a shortage of fuel.

As I’ve said on the World War II plus 70 years threads, he should have been court-martialed for his defense of the Philippines.


26 posted on 12/10/2011 3:30:19 PM PST by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: GreenLanternCorps
In December 1941, MacArthur had one re-enforced US Infantry Division and ten divisions of almost untrained Philippine Army troops. His fight them on the beaches strategy was doomed. His troops were not trained enough to get into a mobile fight with the Imperial Japanese Army.

Until the Kwantung army was defeated by the red Army at Khalkin Gol in August 1939, the Japanese drive for raw materials was west and north. At the same time, the entire U.S army totaled 187,893 men, the Philippines force was a garrison and no one was really expecting a Japanese drive to SE Asia.

It wasn't until the Aug 1941 embargoes of oil and other raw materials that Japan was thrown into crisis, unwilling to disengage from China as a prerequisite for lifting of the embargo, she chose war.

In the meantime, nothing had changed concerning the Philippines status, a small U.S. force was there and MacArthur had assurances of reenforcements and resupply, neither of which materialized although, on Dec 7, a number of units were either enroute or waiting to embark from the U.S. mainland to the Philippines.

26th Field Artillery Brigade
147th Field Artillery (75mm)(Trk Drawn) Regiment, South Dakota National Guard [At Sea]
148th Field Artillery (75mm)(Trk Drawn) Regiment, Idaho National Guard [At Sea]
2nd Bn 131st Field Artillery (75mm)(Trk Drawn) Regiment, Texas National Guard [At Sea]
34th Infantry Regiment [San Francisco Waiting to Embark]

27 posted on 12/10/2011 4:17:54 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301

That’s some good stuff, is there a book I can get with that info?


28 posted on 12/10/2011 4:22:03 PM PST by al44
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To: al44
That’s some good stuff, is there a book I can get with that info?

What post(s) do you want additional info on?

29 posted on 12/10/2011 4:31:16 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301

Post 27 about the reinforcements for the Phillipines.


30 posted on 12/10/2011 4:33:53 PM PST by al44
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To: fso301
MacArthur's overall strategy was feasible assuming the Philippines could be resupplied.

Key sentence. The Orange Plan called for a retreat to the Bataan peninsula and wait for the fleet. The tragedy was neither the govt or MacArthur did anything to beef up Bataan - not even cross-peninsula roads or defensive lines. That, combined with MacArthur's suicidal plan to stop the Japs at Lingayen doomed the troops. Even then, they held out almost until the Coral Sea battle. Another "If only" scenario had MacArthur immediately retreated to Bataan and dug in.

IMO, the definitive story of Bataan is "Bataan - Our Last Ditch" by John W. Whitman. I had no idea how tough a fight the troops put up, completely screwing up the Jap's plans. Sober and heart-breaking reading of the sacrifice of those abandoned troops.

31 posted on 12/10/2011 5:28:56 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: GreenLanternCorps
The Imperial Japanese Army aircraft sank USS Panay (PR-5), a US Navy Gunboat operating under treaty rights in China, in 1937
That was four years before things really went into the crapper and I think then neither side wanted to inflame the incident.

and a Kreigsmarine U-Boat (U-552) had sunk USS Ruben James (DD-245) just over a month prior to Pearl Harbor. If those incidents didn’t cause a war, a dinky yacht in the South China Sea won’t.
I think the lack of response was more on Hitler's side as Roosevelt was jabbing him in the eye to start something big enough that even the isolationists couldn't take. Neither the sinking of the Reuben James or the Niblick/Greer attacks seemed to do the trick either.

The yacht was a spy ship, and too little too late in December 1941.
From what I have read of the Lanikai, it seems it WAS a sacrificial lamb as their intelligence potential could better be served by the PBY's monitoring the Japs. It seems at odds with Roosevelt's "let 'em make the first move" policy though. In either case, it doesn't make much sense.

32 posted on 12/10/2011 5:42:01 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: al44
Post 27 about the reinforcements for the Phillipines.

Ok. For the incredibly significant battles at Khalkin Gol, the easiest thing to do is a web search since historians inexplicably ignore this battle.

For the Aug 1941 embargo and demands for disengagement from China as prerequisite for lifting the embargoes, review FR daily postings by Homer J Simpson of NYT clippings.

For details on defense of the Philippines, read:

"They Fought With What They Had: The Story of the Army Air Forces in the Southwest Pacific, 1941-1942", 1951 by Walter D. Edmonds is a treasure trove of data and first hand accounts of the Army Air Corps in the Philippines.

"But Not in Shame" by John Toland has good first hand accounts of fighting in the Philippines including a chapter titled something to the effect of "Tallyho! Bandits over Clark".

"Reminiscences" by Douglas MacArthur also contains important account of not only events of Dec 8, but also an entire history of the U.S. involvement in the Philippines.

As for resupply info, the above three books I cited contain info. "They Fought With What They Had" contains quite a bit of supply/resupply data. Also, in my post 27, I copy-pasted info artillery and infantry units enroute/embarking to the Philippines from http://www.navsource.org/Naval/usarmy.htm

Hope that helps. Let me know if you need anything else.

33 posted on 12/10/2011 6:05:03 PM PST by fso301
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To: Oatka
Key sentence. The Orange Plan called for a retreat to the Bataan peninsula and wait for the fleet. The tragedy was neither the govt or MacArthur did anything to beef up Bataan - not even cross-peninsula roads or defensive lines. That, combined with MacArthur's suicidal plan to stop the Japs at Lingayen doomed the troops. Even then, they held out almost until the Coral Sea battle. Another "If only" scenario had MacArthur immediately retreated to Bataan and dug in.

For an army that had so little .50 cal ammo that P-40 pilots had never even fired their machineguns, blaming MacArthur for not provisioning Bataan is a stretch.

IMO, the definitive story of Bataan is "Bataan - Our Last Ditch" by John W. Whitman. I had no idea how tough a fight the troops put up, completely screwing up the Jap's plans. Sober and heart-breaking reading of the sacrifice of those abandoned troops.

Thank's, if I come across it, I'll check it out. In general, the loss of the Philippines is so heavily politicized that relying on accounts other than first hand ones can be little more than an exercise in alternate history.

If you haven't already done so, I suggest reading:


34 posted on 12/10/2011 6:29:47 PM PST by fso301
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To: fso301
For an army that had so little .50 cal ammo that P-40 pilots had never even fired their machineguns, blaming MacArthur for not provisioning Bataan is a stretch.

Not blaming him for lack of provisioning, but for changing the Orange Plan to fight on the beaches instead of holing up on Bataan. They burned TONS of food before retreating, which would have had them holding out longer.

That being said, I find out that MacArthur told Gen. Marshall what he planned to do and Marshall concurred. He believed MacArthur when he said his Filipino troops were ready to go, when they weren't, by a long shot. Ego intervention here.

Rereading "Last Ditch" now - Jesu, the Filipino troops had WWI Stokes mortars whose ammo had a 70% dud rate, Enfields with broken extractors so they had to use a wood rod to knock out the fired case, etc. etc. It's a wonder they lasted as long as they did.

Thanks for the other titles - will check 'em out.

35 posted on 12/11/2011 9:19:12 AM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Oatka
Not blaming him for lack of provisioning, but for changing the Orange Plan to fight on the beaches instead of holing up on Bataan. They burned TONS of food before retreating, which would have had them holding out longer.

In France three years later, the understrength Rommel also wanted to meet any invasion on the beach.

Even if American and Filipino forces were able to hold out an additional 6 months, the outcome would have been the same. They could not be resupplied and were doomed.

That being said, I find out that MacArthur told Gen. Marshall what he planned to do and Marshall concurred. He believed MacArthur when he said his Filipino troops were ready to go, when they weren't, by a long shot. Ego intervention here.

MacArthur had an ego but in his defense, his overall strategy and planning was based on assurances from the highest level that his forces would be resupplied.

What also must always be considered when MacArthur is involved is that he is the American military figure most hated by the left and they have done more to slander his record than any other military man. Yes, he was human and as a human made mistakes but as one of the book titles went that I gave, you, he fought with what he had which was very little.

Rereading "Last Ditch" now - Jesu, the Filipino troops had WWI Stokes mortars whose ammo had a 70% dud rate, Enfields with broken extractors so they had to use a wood rod to knock out the fired case, etc. etc. It's a wonder they lasted as long as they did.

The Filipino's were worse off equipment wise than the Americans but much of that has to do with the fact that alarm bells didn't start going off in the Philippines until after the Aug 1941 embargoes and it became apparent that the Philippines lay in the path of the Japanese objectives in SE Asia and Indonesia.

While the poorly trained, badly equipped Americans were better off that their Filipino allies, it wasn't by much.

Much has been written about the number of aircraft destroyed on the ground on Dec 8, 1941 but very rarely is mention ever made that of the generally cited 300 planes in the Philippines, the vast majority of destroyed aircraft were obsolete, worn out and were best left on the ground as decoys.

On Dec 7 in the Philippines, there were 54 operational P-40E's, 18 P-40B's and 18 P-35's. The P-35's listed as operational were effectively useless due to worn out engines, worn out .30 cal machineguns, light armor and no self sealing fuel tanks. One of the P-40 squadrons had just arrived and the engines had not yet been broken in nor guns sighted. Many American pilots would fire their guns for the first time against Japanese aircraft.

None of the fighters, P-40 or P-35 had oxygen for the pilots. Lack of oxygen limited use to about 15,000 feet.

Even the P-40E's would not have lasted more than a few days of continual use because the Japanese bombers could fly much higher than the American fighters and bomb airfields with impunity. The 34 B-17's in commission had gunners that had never even fired a machinegun.

On and on the list of inadequate, obsolete equipment and supplies went. Shortages in every area prevented training and limited subsequent combat. That the Americans and Filipinos held out until May 1942, was a remarkable feat.

Thanks for the other titles - will check 'em out.

Glad to help.

36 posted on 12/11/2011 12:16:23 PM PST by fso301
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