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Why Is Windows Phone Failing?
Business Insider ^ | 12/27/2011 | Steve Kovach

Posted on 12/27/2011 7:38:34 AM PST by SeekAndFind

Good question.

However, if you want an honest opinion, it's usually best to go straight to the source. A former GM who used to work on Windows Phone 7 for Microsoft, Charlie Kindel, took to his personal blog today with some thoughts on why Microsoft's mobile efforts seem so stagnant.

It boils down to carriers, manufacturers, and the companies like Apple, Google, and Microsoft who make the operating system are all locked in this big three-way pissing contest to see who gets the most say in marketing a device.

According to Kindel, Android is crushing iOS and Windows Phone 7 when it comes to marketshare simply because its open platform allows manufacturers and carriers to get away with whatever they want, while cranking out dozens of devices a year.

And yes, that means bloatware, nasty skins, and fragmentation on your Android phone. But it also means carriers get to promote the hell out of those phones thanks to their massive marketing budgets.

Here's Kindel:

Google has been wildly successful with Android (at least in terms of units) because Android was built to reduce friction between all sides of the market. It ‘bows down’ to the device manufactures AND the carriers. It enabled device manufactures to do what they do best (build lots of devices). It enabled carriers to do what they do best (market lots of devices). It enabled users tons of choice. My hypothesis is that it also enables too much fragmentation that will eventually drive end users nuts.

On the other hand, although Windows Phone 7 can be licensed to any device, Microsoft has a set of specs each manufacturer must follow in order to ensure the best user experience. It's not as perfect as Apple's approach of designing both the hardware and software,

(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Computers/Internet; Society
KEYWORDS: microsoft; smartphone; windowsphone
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1 posted on 12/27/2011 7:38:45 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

For any Microsoft fans out there ( and here in FR, I think they are very few ), next year is going to be the make or break moment for Windows Phone. The long awaited Nokia Lumia 800, which is an excellent device, will finally arrive in the U.S. With it comes all of Nokia’s marketing might that Kindel thinks Windows Phone is missing. If Nokia delivers a dud, it could easily take Windows Phone down with it.

(And for those software developers out there, it might not be worth your precious time mastering how to program for the Windows Phone ).


2 posted on 12/27/2011 7:41:06 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

What pisses me off most about my Windows 7 phone is that it won’t synch with Microsoft Outlook - I have to move all my contacts to my Hotmail account and double-enter every appointment on my Calendar. Really, Microsoft? You make BOTH PRODUCTS!!


3 posted on 12/27/2011 7:44:40 AM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: SeekAndFind

Have a Windows phone, and it is remarkably non-intuitive.

Haven’t used the other systems, but it’s difficult to imagine them being worse.


4 posted on 12/27/2011 7:48:07 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: SeekAndFind
too much fragmentation that will eventually drive end users nuts

Wishful thinking from an Apple zombie. Anyone who gives a damn about 'fragmentation' can simply flash a custom rom.

IMHO, the biggest problem Windows Phone has is that it's from the same company who released the horrendous Windows Mobile. I used that garbage on HTC phones for a couple of years. It was so traumatizing that I'd actually be afraid to rely on any device running Windows.

5 posted on 12/27/2011 7:51:20 AM PST by perfect_rovian_storm (Perry's idea of border control: Use both hands to welcome the illegals right in.)
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To: jagusafr

That is crazy. I figured Windows phone would do well with business since they could tightly integrate with ms office. Surprising that they made it that difficult!


6 posted on 12/27/2011 7:52:58 AM PST by rokkitapps ( Hearings on healthcare waivers NOW! (If you agree make this your tagline))
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To: SeekAndFind
simply because its open platform allows manufacturers and carriers to get away with whatever they want, while cranking out dozens of devices a year.

Sounds like he doesn't like the short development cycle that open platforms offer.

I disagree with him that the open cycle will degrade the customer experience.

The strong will survive, and the weak will die out. The market and the customers will determine which survives.

Meanwhile innovation occurs about 10 times faster on the open system, than on the closed system.

Sucks to be an old, slow dinosaur when those pesky mammals can outbreed you. ;)

/johnny

7 posted on 12/27/2011 7:54:24 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

OK mom, I know we’re on the phone a thousand miles away, but really, all you have to do is “flash a rom” - It’s easy.

Good luck with that. Not everyone is tech-savy. I’d imagine 98% of the folks owning smart phones could not do what you describe themselves.


8 posted on 12/27/2011 7:54:46 AM PST by SengirV
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To: SeekAndFind
> For any Microsoft fans out there ( and here in FR, I think they are very few )...

Honestly, I'm not anybody's "fan". But I want Microsoft to succeed with Windows Phone (and Windows 8). They need to be in this market or they will atrophy and become irrelevant, and that's not going to be good for anyone.

> (And for those software developers out there, it might not be worth your precious time mastering how to program for the Windows Phone ).

That's a killer; if developers stay away, WP is dead.

The thing is, Apple's iOS approach, and Google's Android approach, cover the two workable possibilities already -- the gorgeous but walled garden, and the open but fragmented litterbox.

What Microsoft is doing, by NOT controlling the entire process, but by setting tight restrictions, seems to combine the worst, not the best, of each approach. They have constructed a walled litterbox.

*sigh* I truly hope they figure it out in time.

9 posted on 12/27/2011 7:55:01 AM PST by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: Sherman Logan

I love my windows phone. I have the samsung focus and every time I look at someones Iphone or Android I feel like I went back in time. Their displays are cluttered and it’s hard to read the icons. On my phone, the display is one of the best around and it integrates with Exchange, Lync server, Facebook so I have all of work email, contacts, IM etc in one place.


10 posted on 12/27/2011 7:57:22 AM PST by bigtoona
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Charlie Kindel...

With a name like that, he should be working for Amazon.


11 posted on 12/27/2011 7:57:54 AM PST by Rio
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To: dayglored

RE: Honestly, I’m not anybody’s “fan”. But I want Microsoft to succeed with Windows Phone (and Windows 8).

________________

The reason why I said what I said is because everytime Windows is mentioned in these forums, it inevitably gets the whole gamut of ridicule from many posters.

Windows is at the same time, one of the most successful, yet one of the most disliked products out there.


12 posted on 12/27/2011 7:58:22 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

My android tablet sucks in all the right ways. My kids love it as an Angry Birds platform. I love it because my kids love it. It operates well with my wife’s android phone (I refuse to use a cell phone). Top that, MicroSwift.


13 posted on 12/27/2011 7:59:43 AM PST by Timaeus (I will vote for any GOP nominee but Willard Mitt Romney)
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To: SeekAndFind

I have one, and it works perfectly fine. My wife’s iPhone is a total pain to operate compared to it.

As far as this “failing” nonsense, it comes across as the typical “clear the field of options” garbage that is the hallmark of tech enthusiast these days. Have an iPhone? Well everything else is crap and “failing”. Android? Same attitude.

As if somehow a platform has to sell 100,000,000 units in a year to be a credible platform. Microsoft has created a great OS that has received lots of developer attention and has some of the highest satisfactory rates out there. Far higher than Android, and saw in one case, better than iOS.

They are doing better in their infant years than Android. Most people dont remember the scorn heaped on the G1 and other early Android phones for bugginess, ugly hardware, and “fragmentation”.


14 posted on 12/27/2011 8:00:17 AM PST by VanDeKoik (1 million in stimulus dollars paid for this tagline!)
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To: SeekAndFind
I bought a windows7 phone earlier this year and every morning it was frozen.
I went through three before I just settled on the 4g Samsung.

The Win7 phone is junk from my experience.

15 posted on 12/27/2011 8:01:32 AM PST by MaxMax
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To: SeekAndFind
The reason why I said what I said is because everytime Windows is mentioned in these forums, it inevitably gets the whole gamut of ridicule from many posters.
I use opensuse 12.1 so I don't even need to write what I want to write because you already know my script by heart. So, blah, blah, blah, etc., &c.
16 posted on 12/27/2011 8:01:53 AM PST by Timaeus (I will vote for any GOP nominee but Willard Mitt Romney)
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To: SeekAndFind

Could it be, that when all things are considered - that MSFT simply cannot compete with other companies like it once could?

Back in the day (70-80’s) MSFT did very well, standing up and innovating and competing. It won the Office suite fair and square.

But, since then:
Kin1 and Kin2- released, hyped, failed and dumped.
Zune - released, hyped, failed and dumped
Courier - released, hyped, failed and dumped

Now, do you really want to sign a 2 year contract with a company that has established a pattern of not supporting their products, if they are not immediately successful in the market?


17 posted on 12/27/2011 8:02:02 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

“IMHO, the biggest problem Windows Phone has is that it’s from the same company who released the horrendous Windows Mobile. I used that garbage on HTC phones for a couple of years. It was so traumatizing that I’d actually be afraid to rely on any device running Windows. “

So the point is that you never actually used a WP7 device after using 6.x?

I have. They are not the same in any way.


18 posted on 12/27/2011 8:02:46 AM PST by VanDeKoik (1 million in stimulus dollars paid for this tagline!)
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To: SengirV; perfect_rovian_storm
>> Wishful thinking from an Apple zombie. Anyone who gives a damn about 'fragmentation' can simply flash a custom rom.

> Not everyone is tech-savy. I’d imagine 98% of the folks owning smart phones could not do what you describe themselves.

And of the remaining 2% who know how to do it in theory, most WON'T do it, because even though they know how, they don't feel like risking a brick. It takes a certain amount of high motivation to do it. I know, because I'm generally one, though there are some things I won't take chances with.

The actual percentage of highly-motivated tech-savvy users who screw around with their phone's flash-ROM programming is minuscule. Might be tens of thousands of users, which sounds like a lot until you remember that there are a thousand times that many users who consider their phone a black box device and don't screw around with it.

19 posted on 12/27/2011 8:02:50 AM PST by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: bigtoona

My wife has an HTC Arrive (Windows Phone) and she likes it. I think pretty highly of it as well.

It could us some fine tuning and that said I think it has the potential to be the best phone OS on the market.

I love my EVO 3D, but I think I would rather have a Windows Phone instead.


20 posted on 12/27/2011 8:03:14 AM PST by Carbonsteel
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To: SeekAndFind

I think that 90% of it has to do with the fact that Microsoft is unreliable, in terms of supporting their products.

How can I justify spending, as much as, $600 for a phone and have Microsoft pull out of the market?

If Microsoft is going to gain traction, they are going to have to think in terms of decades and stick with it, if they want to improve their marketability to the point of profitability.


21 posted on 12/27/2011 8:06:47 AM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: SeekAndFind
The reason why I said what I said is because everytime Windows is mentioned in these forums, it inevitably gets the whole gamut of ridicule from many posters.
I use opensuse 12.1 so I don't even need to write what I want to write because you already know my script by heart. So, blah, blah, blah, etc., &c.
22 posted on 12/27/2011 8:07:03 AM PST by Timaeus (I will vote for any GOP nominee but Willard Mitt Romney)
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To: Hodar

But, since then:
Kin1 and Kin2- released, hyped, failed and dumped.
Zune - released, hyped, failed and dumped
Courier - released, hyped, failed and dumped

Now, do you really want to sign a 2 year contract with a company that has established a pattern of not supporting their products, if they are not immediately successful in the market?”

Courier was a concept video. It was not a product at any point.

#2 You have the talking points down as to what you need to run to to paint MS as a horrible company, all the while ignoring all of the other products they release that are very well received.

XBox

Windows 7

Win 8 developer preview has been downloaded millions of times.

Office

MS server products

Hotmail

Bing

Kinect

And many others


23 posted on 12/27/2011 8:09:05 AM PST by VanDeKoik (1 million in stimulus dollars paid for this tagline!)
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To: bigtoona

From what I have read on it, I like the idea of having a folder on my phone, that I can click on and all the programs that are within that folder reveal themselves.

If what I understand to be correct, that would be a quality that would attract me to the phone.


24 posted on 12/27/2011 8:10:14 AM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: SeekAndFind
> Windows is at the same time, one of the most successful, yet one of the most disliked products out there.

Oh I know. :) I use it on numerous machines, every day. I make my living on Windows.

You mentioned "successful" and "disliked", but you didn't mention "quality".

Windows' success is because it became ubiquitous riding on the coattails of MSDOS in the 90's, nothing more. It's finally gotten to the point of being a "quality" product with Windows 7, in the last 2-3 years, and now it's damn good. Nevertheless, users will always complain about Windows.

Apple got MacOSX working right after a few years, but they've also had 7-8 years of subsequent raging success in their part of the marketplace to build a reputation. If you doubt that MacOSX took a while to get right, go back and try to use 10.1 or 10.2. Yikes!

I hope Microsoft does Windows 8 right. They can't afford another Vista debacle.

25 posted on 12/27/2011 8:14:12 AM PST by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: dayglored
Your metaphors are telling, walled garden vs. open litter box, really?

How about walled garden vs. forest? A garden is nice but you can only go so far before you come to a wall. A forest is nice, no walls but you are more likely to get eaten.

26 posted on 12/27/2011 8:15:06 AM PST by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: Sherman Logan
Have a Windows phone, and it is remarkably non-intuitive.

"Intuitive" is not a word that springs immediately to mind in association with Microsoft. Are you surprised?

27 posted on 12/27/2011 8:16:08 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

Exactly - I used Windows Mobile when I had to do so; when Android matured I jumped ship. No going back based on past experience.


28 posted on 12/27/2011 8:19:30 AM PST by scott7278 ("...I have not changed Congress and how it operates the way I would have liked..." - BHO)
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To: rokkitapps

Android connects and syncs flawlessly with my PC and Microsoft Exchange - there was ALWAYS something going wrong with Windows Mobile.


29 posted on 12/27/2011 8:23:31 AM PST by scott7278 ("...I have not changed Congress and how it operates the way I would have liked..." - BHO)
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To: SeekAndFind

One thing that would probably help Microsoft is, if they did what every other phone manufacturer did and have sneak leaks of their phones, even the ones that are still in the lab.

You can’t tell me that every picture of phones, Android and Iphone and BB, that are still due to come out a year from now, are all accidents.


30 posted on 12/27/2011 8:34:33 AM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: dangerdoc
> Your metaphors are telling, walled garden vs. open litter box, really? How about walled garden vs. forest? A garden is nice but you can only go so far before you come to a wall. A forest is nice, no walls but you are more likely to get eaten.

The term "walled garden" as applies to Apple products is hardly original with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walled_garden_%28technology%29.

For Android I probably should have said "playground sandbox" instead of "litterbox". I didn't mean "crappy", so much as "everybody gets to play around and do what they please, no rules".

"Forest" might work for Android, insofar as a forest grows without rules (gardens have rules) and there are few if any cleared paths (gardens have paths) and you tend to to run into brambles and bogs (which are generally not found in gardens).

31 posted on 12/27/2011 8:59:33 AM PST by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: VanDeKoik

Windows 7, is essentially a patched Visa - but at full price.

But, honestly; do consumers ‘really’ have a choice? My PC at work is going to be a Windows machine. That is a fact of life, I don’t get a vote on that. The momentum behind Windows is tremendous; try to order a PC without Windows installed. This is where Apple is ‘finally’ getting some momentum.

MSFT has garnered a great deal of ‘ill-will’. People hate MSFT, it’s a passion and it is indeed ‘personal’. Why is that? Why do Apple users love and fawn over their OS X; while MSFT users swear that they will never buy another Windows machine?

Bing? Sorry, it’s not a tremendous success. People, when given a choice - are opting for Google.

Server products - again, with market momentum and IT staff trained for all things Windows - this is a market that MSFT has sewn up nicely. Is it sewn up on the merits of the Server OS, or the fact that it is what Corporations chose? Why is the Apple equivalent, less than $100 more than Lion; while the MSFT server OS retails for several hundred dollars more? They both do the same thing?

XBox and Kinect - granted; those are two successful devices. But, is it due to the hardware (which had nearly 100% failure rates associated with it for the first 3 years of release), or due to the tremdous software provided by Bungee and other developers? Software-wise; the XBox reigned supreme. Hardware wise, it’s a distant second to the PS3 (I own the Wii, XBox360 and PS-3); for day to day operations, the PS3 plays my CD, DVD and Blu-Rays; it streams video from my network, runs silently and serves it’s purpose well. The XBox360 (first edition) is noisy, is on it’s 3rd motherboard, and generally is used only as a gaming console.

So, what does MSFT have, really? A 50/50 chance of supporting your given product? If it’s immediately successful; MSFT will support it. If it’s not immediately accepted by the market, historically speaking - it’s quickly abandoned.

Now, compare this support record to the competition. Apple is STILL supporing the iPhone 3GS, and even older generations of the iPod.


32 posted on 12/27/2011 9:01:02 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind
Nokia's 'last-ditch' Windows phone stumbles - sales crawl behind Androids, iPhones, BlackBerries

They couldn't print it if it weren't true

33 posted on 12/27/2011 9:05:24 AM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: SeekAndFind

I wonder how much longer Microsoft will be around as we know it, they are getting creamed by Apple and Google on the newer technologies, yes their legacy products should help them stay afloat for the near future, but beyond that....


34 posted on 12/27/2011 9:07:38 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Hodar

The question is, with increasing power of mobile devices, how much longer will PCs be as prevalent as they are now? Not saying they’re going away, but certainly their numbers will begin to decline steadily over the next few years, as tables and smartphones begin to take their place, and Microsoft will pretty much be shutout of that.


35 posted on 12/27/2011 9:11:12 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

tables s/b “tablets”


36 posted on 12/27/2011 9:11:51 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Jonty30
From what I have read on it, I like the idea of having a folder on my phone, that I can click on and all the programs that are within that folder reveal themselves.

You will find the folder idea on almost any phone. Blackberry, Apple and Android all have them, and have had them for some time. I'd be surprised if Windows didn't have them (I don't know).

37 posted on 12/27/2011 9:14:27 AM PST by Hodar ( Who needs laws; when this FEELS so right?)
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To: Hodar
Here's my take. Microsoft got to where they are (or more precisely were) but taking a very fragmented PC market in the 80s and 90s and made it orderly which was a clear benefit for consumers but at the cost of a Microsoft monopoly. Before Microsoft came along there was no promise that a given program would work with a given printer or a given modem or what have you. Once the Microsoft monopoly was established they continued to print money by ruthlessly exploiting that monopoly.

What they haven't done much of in last, say, 15 years, is to significantly innovate.

Now, faced with an entirely separate market - the one for Mobile OS - they have none of their previous advantages. Say what you will, it's not a market in chaos either economically or technologically. And it's certainly not a Microsoft owned monopoly - far from it. So neither of their previous two strategies show any promise of working in this new space.

Can they come up with a winning strategy by providing a compelling technology for carriers, manufacturers, developers and users - and then forge those relationships based on a compelling technology with great customer service and innovative marketing? It's possible, but seems quite unlikely to this observer.

38 posted on 12/27/2011 9:15:41 AM PST by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

And one more thing - people who want to work some place “cool” aren’t going to be working at Redmond and neither are people who are looking for a quick “pop” on
stock options or restricted stock grants. The programming talent that they have there
now is probably no longer the best and the brightest nor on the cutting edge of mobile
technology.


39 posted on 12/27/2011 9:20:06 AM PST by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: SeekAndFind

Can I boil this down to say Windows phone is failing because it’s too good for us?


40 posted on 12/27/2011 9:21:15 AM PST by Cyber Liberty ("If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." --Winston Churchill)
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To: SeekAndFind

Because it sucks in performance and aesthetics.

It is well thought out to about 70% and then they slap the thing together.

Microsoft still thinks it dominates. Corporate Culture.

Google still thinks it’s markets are ripe for innovation. Corporate Culture


41 posted on 12/27/2011 9:23:44 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: MaxMax

I am in the business and they ARE junk. I pity the person that makes the mistake of shelling out good money for a Windows phone.


42 posted on 12/27/2011 9:25:05 AM PST by publana (Beware the olive branch extended by a Dem for it disguises a clenched fist.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Windows is at the same time, one of the most successful, yet one of the most disliked products out there.

Successful in numbers but after so many years on the market still unreliable and unfriendly to use.
Every time I do something off the beaten path with a Microsoft app, I spend more time fighting against the tools than doing the intended work.
It takes longer to figure out how to do something than actually doing it, and far too often I had to settle with what the tools would let me do, or what I could find out in a limited time, rather than what I really wanted.

43 posted on 12/27/2011 9:28:14 AM PST by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: BitWielder1

“Workaround” is a word that floats to the top of most business Windows users’ vocabulary very quickly.


44 posted on 12/27/2011 9:33:16 AM PST by Cyber Liberty ("If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." --Winston Churchill)
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

I am confused about something discussed on this thread. What is “fragmentation?” How do I know if my Droid has that? Is it like “fragmentation” of files on a disk/flash?


45 posted on 12/27/2011 9:36:25 AM PST by Cyber Liberty ("If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." --Winston Churchill)
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To: dfwgator

Google has the resources to suck up users based on freeware, but if and when they become dominant, (MS becomes more irrelevant) it will not be free anymore. Open source is only “open” until they become the big gorilla.


46 posted on 12/27/2011 9:36:34 AM PST by SgtHooper (The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list.)
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To: SengirV

Mom doesn’t give a hoot about ‘fragmentation’, so she wouldn’t need to.


47 posted on 12/27/2011 9:37:10 AM PST by perfect_rovian_storm (Perry's idea of border control: Use both hands to welcome the illegals right in.)
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To: VanDeKoik
So the point is that you never actually used a WP7 device after using 6.x?

Beyond playing with one in the store, I haven't and I will never use a Microsoft OS on a mobile device again as long as I live.

48 posted on 12/27/2011 9:42:40 AM PST by perfect_rovian_storm (Perry's idea of border control: Use both hands to welcome the illegals right in.)
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To: Cyber Liberty

Android can be skinned and have features added to or changed by carriers. Thus, Android can be a different user experience from device to device.

Apple fans call the difference in user experience ‘fragmentation’. It is really just a figment of their imagination and a defense mechanism against the creeping realization that Android’s open nature makes it far more powerful than Apple’s closed and locked down iOS.

This isn’t to say that Apple is wrong in what they do. It’s fine for a lot of people. Probably most of them. As they say, it ‘just works’. However, in order to have something ‘just work’, one has to give up a lot of choices. Choices make software more complicated to use, so they go out the window. Personally, I prefer to dictate how I want things done rather than have Apple do that for me, which is why I prefer Android.


49 posted on 12/27/2011 9:59:32 AM PST by perfect_rovian_storm (Perry's idea of border control: Use both hands to welcome the illegals right in.)
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

Ah! I see! Misuse of a technical word. Now it makes sense. I don’t mind it then. I thought there was a file issue on the Droid I hadn’t heard about.


50 posted on 12/27/2011 10:10:26 AM PST by Cyber Liberty ("If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." --Winston Churchill)
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