Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Phoenix Police: Officers' bulletproof vest failed test
CBS5AZ,COM ^ | Feb 17, 2012 | Jadiann Thompson

Posted on 02/18/2012 5:47:26 AM PST by BOBWADE

PHOENIX (CBS5) - Authorities in Phoenix are asking for immediate action after they found that hundreds of protective vests worn by Valley cops may not stop bullets.

Phoenix Police officer Anthony Daley, 30, was seriously injured when a bullet pierced through the bottom edge of his ballistic vest in November. A similar vest was tested Thursday and the results released today.

(Excerpt) Read more at kpho.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: banglist; bodyarmour; donutwatch; police
Looks like there are some defective vests out there. Make sure your local LE is aware. Any freepers currently wearing this body armour? Better get it checked.
1 posted on 02/18/2012 5:47:29 AM PST by BOBWADE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE

http://www.armorreport.com/
another story on the same subject.


2 posted on 02/18/2012 5:50:23 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE

What kind of ordinance was used at the scene or during the tests. This makes a huge difference.


3 posted on 02/18/2012 6:00:03 AM PST by mosaicwolf (Strength and Honor)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE
"Bullet proof" is a misnomer, they are only bullet resistant in varying degrees.

I didn't see anything in the article about what round of ammo was involved.

4 posted on 02/18/2012 6:03:58 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

“what round of ammo was involved”.

I am not that knowledgeable... isn’t there “armor piercing” bullets? (I thought I have read articles about bad guys using this type of bullet in order to kill law enforcement if they wanted/had to).


5 posted on 02/18/2012 6:06:42 AM PST by momtothree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE

Their armor came from “Custom Armor Technologies”. It may have been certified by NIJ, but there’s something to having cops buy their own armor instead of being issued one from lowest bidder.


6 posted on 02/18/2012 6:09:20 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: momtothree

Thats what is missing what cailber and the round that was used most any center fire rifle and some pistol rounds will defeat a lot of soft armor.

A hit on the every edge could just fold around the vest and continue on. Not enough information here.


7 posted on 02/18/2012 6:11:17 AM PST by riverrunner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

Howdy Sniper!

I had some dealings with BAE who also make vests and there is a testing procedure they use supplied by the DoD. I would assume anyone who would have been in charge of the procurement knew of these standards and insomuch made sure the appropriate testing verifications were given. That is not to say they tested a good one and then sent out lots of bad ones to make a buck.

It is interesting that the manufacturer is no longer in business and the seller is no longer in the “Valley” (Valley of the Sun). Sounds like a scam to me. One would have thought with the stake at hand, the Phoenix Police Department would have conducted their own tests according to the same DoD protocols.


8 posted on 02/18/2012 6:15:47 AM PST by mazda77 (and I am a Native Texan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: riverrunner

I thought one of the article I read said it was a .40 cal. I will google it.


9 posted on 02/18/2012 6:17:59 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: mazda77

more info here:

http://www.azplea.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=541:plea-comments-on-ballistic-vest-failure-


10 posted on 02/18/2012 6:19:15 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: momtothree
The vests commonly worn by LEOs are only good against rimfire ammo and most common pistol rounds. There are a couple of high velocity pistol rounds that will penetrate.

It's not a matter of "armor piercing" bullets. Centerfire hunting rounds are not armor piercing by design but the LEO vests won't stop them.

This issue has been clouded by a bunch of made up terms designed to support the gun control movement. For a while they were trying to ban any round which would penetrate a standard vest. That would include most hunting ammo.

If you want to see a vest fail dramatically shoot it with a broadhead arrow from a hunting bow or crossbow, they go through like a hot knife through butter.

11 posted on 02/18/2012 6:21:41 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: mazda77

One of the articles I googled was talking about a new kind of armour. Is this body armour any good? The video looks promising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CgHZY2oZTw&feature=youtu.be


12 posted on 02/18/2012 6:22:42 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

I had hear that and wondered if it was true. Its amazing how fragile the ceramic plates are yet they transfer the impact and stop a bullet.


13 posted on 02/18/2012 6:25:06 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE
On a cop forum there was talk in 2005 about users being unimpressed with the product.

In your link, we have

…The vests in question were made by Custom Armor Technologies. That company is no longer in business. …Diamondback Tactical supplied the vest, but the company has since moved out of the Valley.
I'm going to guess that, as "Custom Technologies" went under increasing financial pressure, their final batches may not have been subjected to the best quality control. I would not be surprised to learn that, after their prototypes passed NIJ tests, they subcontracted actual manufacture to China.

The REAL culprit here, who will never be examined, is the police dept purchasing unit who bought "hundreds" of these vests, yet never thought to perform acceptance testing by taking one or two out of each purchased batch to the range for target practice.

14 posted on 02/18/2012 6:27:22 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

The guns that Eric Holder sold to the drug cartels - would they pierce the armor of, say, Sheriff Joe, his police officers, and his posse?


15 posted on 02/18/2012 6:28:36 AM PST by butterdezillion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: butterdezillion
The 7.62X39 round the AK47 clones shoot is about the same as a 30/30 Winchester. The LEO vests aren't designed for that much power.

The whole thing boils down to doing something about the barbarians that are piling up deeper every day, not more regulation of guns and ammo.

16 posted on 02/18/2012 6:33:30 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625

Yet another fine result from the low-bid contracts.
I was watching that video link on the new Terminator armor. Now that is some good armour!


17 posted on 02/18/2012 6:34:55 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
As best I know, NO manufacture will guarantee bullet-proof. Not to mention that unless the LEO is SRT the kevlar is most likely rated TL-IIA due to cost. TL-IIA is the minimum standard for most of the departments we work with. LOTS of rounds slice through that stuff like it was warm butter! We shot up an unserviceable IIA vest here one day. It stopped 9mm FMJs pretty well. Ditto for .45ACP FMJs. But Russian 7.62x25s went RIGHT through it and we had it snugged onto a big bag of sand to simulate a torso! I've got a buddy here who's a "big wig" in the DoD/LEO kevlar business. He's a chemical engineer and designs the material which goes into the vests as well as the vests. You should hear his speech on the definition of bullet proof. He's the whole reason that all of us extremists ditched all the IIA stuff we had and upgraded. :-)

Most people don't know this (you probably DO), but broadhead arrows shot from a good compound bow are hell on TL-IIA kevlar!
18 posted on 02/18/2012 6:52:04 AM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE
Investigators later learned that one of the rounds fired by Sandoval (.40 Cal) penetrated and punched through the Kevlar material at the lower edge ofc Daley's Level IIIA ballistic vest approx. 3/8" from the outer edge.

NIJ test data does not address impacts that occur within 76mm or 3" of the panel edge or within 51mm or 2" of a prior ballistic impact.

19 posted on 02/18/2012 7:18:30 AM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

Thank you for your knowledge on this! I had no idea that a broadhead arrow would penetrate a vest. In short, the vest is probably suppose to help with some situations; however, I am thinking no vest will protect 100% of the time.


20 posted on 02/18/2012 7:32:07 AM PST by momtothree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand

The Bourque Terminator Fat Boys stopped 7.62x51 FMJ NATO rounds in NIJ testing. (all six, all plates in testing)

Maybe Terminator is a better choice now.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120214005775/en/Bourque-Industries-Level-III-Body-Armor-NIJ


21 posted on 02/18/2012 7:34:29 AM PST by Suz in AZ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER
Wait. Wait. Wait. You expect journalism school graduates to understand weapons calibrations and ammunitions? Their education is pretty well limited school lunch menus, whether or not to use a comman in a series, how often to say, :"How do you feel?"

Oh, and how to harass local law enforcement.
22 posted on 02/18/2012 7:39:00 AM PST by righttackle44 (I may not be much, but I raised a United States Marine.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: BOBWADE

There is a new armor technology that just recently received NIJ certification. It is based on proprietary process of alloying aluminum with carbon nanotubes. The product is far superior to any thing on the market. It stops EVERY thing. The army did some tests with the plates - from 9mm to 50 cal to C4 in pipe bombs. I will try to get the links up. If I fail, then PLEASE, someone with HTML skills, help me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CgHZY2oZTw&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-FAqK6A2s&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qppt_d17Pcc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihAvwwSs-c4


23 posted on 02/18/2012 7:42:43 AM PST by dadgum (Overjoyed to be the Pariah.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Suz in AZ
Yep. I've got a set here that stops 7.62x51. Before we acquired it, we got to shoot one up and we KNEW exactly what it would stop, and what it wouldn't. We also got the ceramic plates that install into pockets on the front and back (makes it HEAVY) that are reported to stop AP. We tested a couple of borderline-serviceable plates with 5.56mm NATO AP and it stopped them well enough.

My buddy in the business tells me that there are issues of strength over time, and care during use is IMPORTANT. He said that this is a HUGE factor in stopping ability over time. :-)
24 posted on 02/18/2012 7:46:33 AM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: dadgum

I’ve seen a helmet made with this stuff and it had been shot with a .50cal and there was barely a dent! I saw another plate that had been hit with 60 rounds (not sure of the caliber) with no penetration. Totally amazing. I think that once it gets traction, a lot of companies will go out of business. Hence, there might be a lot of resistance too.


25 posted on 02/18/2012 7:49:47 AM PST by Suz in AZ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand

Water effects the strength too I believe. Not the plates but the material itself.


26 posted on 02/18/2012 7:52:23 AM PST by DainBramage
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand
LEO

Huh?

SRT

Huh?

TL-IIA

Huh?

FMJ

Huh?

DoD/LEO

Huh?

Anagrams - not just for breakfast...

27 posted on 02/18/2012 7:53:27 AM PST by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: SWAMPSNIPER

Given that is failed a follow-up test, it doesn’t matter what happened in the field.


28 posted on 02/18/2012 7:57:44 AM PST by G Larry (We are NOT obliged to carry the snake in our pocket and then dismiss the bites as natural behavior.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: dadgum

Cool vids


29 posted on 02/18/2012 8:05:47 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: dadgum

THAT is impressive!


30 posted on 02/18/2012 8:09:55 AM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Suz in AZ

I’ve seen a helmet made with this stuff and it had been shot with a .50cal and there was barely a dent!

You get hit in the noggin with a 50 cal, it doesn’t matter if the helmet stops the round because the impact force alone will more than likely snap your neck.


31 posted on 02/18/2012 8:12:32 AM PST by 2CAVTrooper ( For those who have had to fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected shall never know.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: mosaicwolf; Tax-chick
What kind of ordinance was used at the scene or during the tests. This makes a huge difference.

I HATE standing there in a "bullet-proof" vest having laws thrown at me. I'd almost rather people shoot at me.

32 posted on 02/18/2012 8:13:21 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Still Thinking; mosaicwolf

Probably large, three-ring binders of ordinance. Better wear your football helmet to the gun range!

Our legislators (at all levels) couldn’t be more excessively verbose if they were paid by the word, like Charles Dickens.


33 posted on 02/18/2012 8:16:52 AM PST by Tax-chick (I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's. His hair was perfect!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: raybbr
Oops...sorry... translation follows. :-) -

LEO = Law Enforcement Officer

SRT = Special Response Team (a.k.a. - SWAT)

TL-IIA - Threat Level Two Alpha. This is a strength rating for personal ballistic armor given by the National Institute of Justice. TL-IIA is considered the minimum.

FMJ = Full Metal Jacket. FMJ is a projectile (bullet) that is usually a core of more dense metal (steel or lead) which is wrapped by a jacket of copper in such a way to fully cover it.

DoD/LEO = Department of Defense, and Law Enforcement Officers.


34 posted on 02/18/2012 8:17:11 AM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: momtothree
I am not that knowledgeable... isn’t there “armor piercing” bullets? (I thought I have read articles about bad guys using this type of bullet in order to kill law enforcement if they wanted/had to).

Yes, and those would certainly penetrate, but even that's not necessary with the type vest we're probably talking about here. Just about any rifle round will penetrate low end vests. They only offer some protection against low-energy/velocity handgun rounds.

35 posted on 02/18/2012 8:17:27 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: DainBramage
Yes. According to my friend you're correct. He told me to try not to get it wet. But he said that if I did, to remove the kevlar from the carrier and dry it out, but do NOT put it in the dryer and do NOT expose it to direct sunlight.
36 posted on 02/18/2012 8:19:08 AM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: 2CAVTrooper

I get what you are saying, but what impressed me was that it didn’t go through the material. I’m sure there are uses for something like that!


37 posted on 02/18/2012 8:22:57 AM PST by Suz in AZ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

All contributions are for the
Current Quarter Expenses.


38 posted on 02/18/2012 8:23:58 AM PST by RedMDer (Forward With Confidence!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick
Our legislators (at all levels) couldn’t be more excessively verbose if they were paid by the word, like Charles Dickens.

Sad but true!

39 posted on 02/18/2012 8:24:22 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Still Thinking

But on topic, I’d be a little concerned about this situation, if I were a Phoenix police officer or married to one.


40 posted on 02/18/2012 8:30:21 AM PST by Tax-chick (I saw a werewolf drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's. His hair was perfect!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand
Oops...sorry... translation follows. :-) -

TX

(Thanks)

:)

41 posted on 02/18/2012 8:38:20 AM PST by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick

Oh, yeah, most certainly. The article sounds as if the procurement and verification of the vests had some questionable aspects.


42 posted on 02/18/2012 8:45:01 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Suz in AZ
I get what you are saying, but what impressed me was that it didn’t go through the material. I’m sure there are uses for something like that!

Would no doubt make good vehicular armor, for example.

43 posted on 02/18/2012 8:48:37 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Still Thinking

One of the youtube videos had some references to ied capabilities. Sounds like some promising technology.


44 posted on 02/18/2012 9:10:13 AM PST by BOBWADE (RINOs suck)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: momtothree

No one could carry the weight and bulk of a bullet “proof”. vest.


45 posted on 02/18/2012 9:12:34 AM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: momtothree

You’re remembering the Ted Kennedy definition of “armor piercing.” Any centerfire rifle round will penetrate typical police armor. It was designed to protect them from the ammo they are most likely to encounter...their own...9 mm hollow points.


46 posted on 02/18/2012 10:42:36 AM PST by gundog (Help us, Nairobi-Wan Kenobi...you're our only hope.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand

Ask yer buddy what he thinks of the new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff.

Also I have a SOV-2000 concealable issued from pinnacle armor. They want to give me new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff from american body armor. I like the SOV 2000.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

Yes agree on the knife / arrow etc vs body armor.


47 posted on 02/18/2012 3:38:20 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: hiredhand

Ask yer buddy what he thinks of the new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff.

Also I have a SOV-2000 concealable issued from pinnacle armor. They want to give me new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff from american body armor. I like the SOV 2000.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

Yes agree on the knife / arrow etc vs body armor.


48 posted on 02/18/2012 4:29:29 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
Actually, he speaks quite highly of the Dragon Skin! He tried to explain what makes it different, but he's a chemist and we had trouble tracking him. He's "supposed" to bring one over so we can at least check it out. :-) He usually brings the new stuff once DoD gets serious about considering it. He DID mention that it's EXPENSIVE.

I'll ask him about the Spectra and see what he says! :-)
49 posted on 02/18/2012 5:13:19 PM PST by hiredhand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson