Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Ancient migration: Coming to America
Nature ^ | 02 May 2012 | Adam Curry

Posted on 05/02/2012 10:12:27 PM PDT by Theoria

For decades, scientists thought that the Clovis hunters were the first to cross the Arctic to America. They were wrong — and now they need a better theory

The mastodon was old, its teeth worn to nubs. It was perfect prey for a band of hunters, wielding spears tipped with needle-sharp points made from bone. Sensing an easy target, they closed in for the kill.

Almost 14,000 years later, there is no way to tell how many hits it took to bring the beast to the ground near the coast of present-day Washington state. But at least one struck home, plunging through hide, fat and flesh to lodge in the mastodon's rib. The hunter who thrust the spear on that long-ago day didn't just bring down the mastodon; he also helped to kill off the reigning theory of how people got to the Americas.

For most of the past 50 years, archaeologists thought they knew how humans arrived in the New World. The story starts around the end of the last ice age, when sea levels were lower and big-game hunters living in eastern Siberia followed their prey across the Bering land bridge and into Alaska. As the ice caps in Canada receded and opened up a path southward, the colonists swept across the vast unpopulated continent. Archaeologists called these presumed pioneers the Clovis culture, after distinctive stone tools that were found at sites near Clovis, New Mexico, in the 1920s and 1930s.

As caches of Clovis tools were uncovered across North America over subsequent decades, nearly all archaeologists signed on to the idea that the Clovis people were the first Americans. Any evidence of humans in the New World before the Clovis time was dismissed, sometimes harshly.

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: americas; clovis; dna; godsgravesglyphs; migration; mtdna; neildiamond; preclovis; precolumbian
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-93 last
To: Zakeet

Check Noah’s Ark again. Look at the specs. The “Arks” that have been built aren’t to the specifications laid out by God.


51 posted on 05/03/2012 2:25:54 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

Noah’s ark was built in the nearly same fashion as the Jeridite ships and it did have a miraculous light for interior lighting. The entire Ark story from the OT is a series of incredible miracles. Nothing is impossible to God.


52 posted on 05/03/2012 2:29:04 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

So is it his PhD or that he taught people who are on ships that lends gravitas to what he wrote?

You don’t see any monomania in your hijacking an interesting thread to fulfill your anti-Mormon vendetta?

Who is Kent Poder that his opinion should count? What else has he written on?


53 posted on 05/03/2012 2:48:01 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: ThanhPhero

They have to because if the allow for any continuing migration it upends their carefully crafted view of aboriginals as victim as opposed to displacers.


54 posted on 05/03/2012 2:55:15 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Zakeet
And perhaps not. Joseph had, at best, a third grade education. Many of his early followers were noted for being even less academically sophisticated; Sidney Rigdon may have completed one or two years of elementary school and Brigham Young was illiterate.

The women couldn't have been very bright or how else did those dirty old men talk them into agreeing to polygamy?

55 posted on 05/03/2012 3:02:55 PM PDT by colorado tanker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Utah Binger

Get Laz in with that bunch and he’ll come out looking like a Pollock canvas!


56 posted on 05/03/2012 5:34:14 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD
Who is Kent Poder that his opinion should count?

Who is Joseph Smith that his opinion should count?

Who is Brigham Young that his opinion should count?

Who is Thomas Monson that his opinion should count?

57 posted on 05/03/2012 5:37:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: blam

Thank you for the assistance.


58 posted on 05/03/2012 6:33:18 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: blam

Thank you for the assistance.


59 posted on 05/03/2012 6:39:26 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Google is your friend. I was making an aside. While there is proof for Biblical archeology (both old and new testaments) there is still ZERO evidence for Mormon archeology. Deal with it.


60 posted on 05/03/2012 7:31:54 PM PDT by reaganaut (I am a Christian first, a Conservative second and am out of the GOP if Romney gets in.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: dsc; blam; Lazamataz
The Solutrean Solution. Stone Age Columbus. Watch the videos in chronological order / numbered.
61 posted on 05/04/2012 12:29:30 AM PDT by Republican1795.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: dsc; blam; Lazamataz
The Solutrean Solution.

Watch this great video presentation.

Stone Age Columbus.

Watch the videos in chronological order / numbered.

62 posted on 05/04/2012 12:31:30 AM PDT by Republican1795.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Sorry my Stunt Mormon friend, Noah’s Ark was not a submarine...


63 posted on 05/04/2012 3:14:52 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Republican1795.
Thanks.

Iberia, Not Siberia

Immigrants From The Other Side (Clovis Is Solutrean?)

Bye, Bye Beringia (8,000 Year Old Site In Florida)

64 posted on 05/04/2012 3:59:00 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut
...ZERO evidence for Mormon archeology.

But, but...

What about all these TOURS we can go on???

65 posted on 05/04/2012 4:40:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: blam; Utah Binger

You can’t argue with science!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2tPCgWfZnw&feature=fvwrel


66 posted on 05/04/2012 4:55:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
All the evidence points to the fact that the Prophet is still laboring in the spirit world.
 
Oh?
 
'...to the FACT..."?

67 posted on 05/04/2012 5:05:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

That Jerusalem exists doesn’t give me faith in the Resurrected Lord. Facts don’t establish faith.

Have you ever sung the words to Lead Kindly Light the hymn by John Newman? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead,_Kindly_Light#Notable_occasions_relating_to_hymn

When I do I imagine myself in a dark cave. Have you ever been in a cave when the lights go out and you can see nothing, not even your hand. The littlest light means all.

“I do not ask to see The distant scene; one step enough for me... I loved to choose and see my path; but now Lead Thou me on!”

I love that hymn. Your post and those of your fellows always remind me of that hymn.


68 posted on 05/04/2012 3:59:42 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

Did you ever have one of those Noah’s Arks? As a kid I did, actually two. One was wooden and the other plastic. They were used, but still had many animal pairs. They both looked so similar - the typical double bowed boat with a central house. Not at all like the ship God designed for Noah.

The real Ark is all black, tight like a drum and with a glowing stone for light. That would be a really awesome toy. Do you know if anyone has ever built a true replica of the Biblical Ark to the specifications God laid down?


69 posted on 05/04/2012 4:03:01 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Faith that is contrary to facts is only blind faith, God doesn’t call us to blind faith.

There is ZERO evidence for the Book of Mormon and literally TONS for the Bible.


70 posted on 05/04/2012 4:12:11 PM PDT by reaganaut (VAB! Voting against both Romney and Obama. Constitution party, here I come!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: reaganaut

Faith contrary to facts is faith and the more blind the better. You’re letting your humanness get the better of you.

Think of Daniel in the lion’s den or Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego. The facts in both cases were that lions and fire consume, yet they acted on blind faith. I wish I had faith like theirs. Or like Noah’s who built an Ark on faith (could you imagine 120 years of waiting/building?) or the verse from the NT: “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” 2Cor5:7 or “Ask in faith for wisdom, nothing doubting.” James 1:5-7. Clearly James is saying stay faithful despite the “facts” around you.

I like to be willing to just have enough faith to take the next step for the Lord. The only people I hear always talking about facts over faith, other than you anti-Mormons, are atheists. It’s why I found your sources so ironic. I mean they’re both committed atheists.


71 posted on 05/04/2012 7:22:35 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD
So I assume you can point these little tid bits from the Bible out...
72 posted on 05/04/2012 8:08:08 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

I can and so can you. Anyone can if they’re willing to look.

I like biblos.com

Take a detailed and specific look at God’s specification for the Ark. It’s fascinating.


73 posted on 05/05/2012 7:13:45 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 72 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

I have, that’s why I know comparing the Ark to the fictional Jerdite ships is amusing at best...

Now if you have something specific to point out instead of the usual Mormon wild goose chase...


74 posted on 05/05/2012 8:31:04 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

What are God’s specs for the Ark?


75 posted on 05/05/2012 8:41:04 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Genesis Chapter 6
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

No magic rocks mentioned...


76 posted on 05/05/2012 8:43:44 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

No mind you I respond against my better judgment, in hopes of an actual answer in the same fashion, with actual citations instead your typical Mormon wild goose chase...

So your turn give me something beyond “I say so” or “if you really look for it...”


77 posted on 05/05/2012 8:46:40 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

You can see that it is pitched inside and out so it doesn’t look at all like the commonly seen “Noah’s Ark”. It would be all around black. There’s no central house above the gunwale. That part is only a cubit higher than the gunwale. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/fiberglass-composite-boat-building/46367-need-help-replacing-gunwale-finish-al_boat_repair.jpg

Keep in mind that Ark in the story is essentially a barge: “basket” or “box”: http://concordances.org/hebrew/8392.htm

It might have looked like a barge with most of the “cargo” below the waterline: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/P%C3%A9nicheRecyclageFerrailles2008De%C3%BBle2.jpg/220px-P%C3%A9nicheRecyclageFerrailles2008De%C3%BBle2.jpg

It would look more like the Monitor, but without the central turret. It might also look like the Merrimac, but only 18-20” above the gunwale. http://americancivilwar.com/pictures/ironclads_battle_2.jpg

Both of which have a certain submarine look.

For certain it doesn’t look like this: http://www.barcelonareporter.com/img_uploads/Noahs_Ark_found_in_Turkey.jpg

or this: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/P1-AP467_Noah2_G_20090413175410.jpg

or this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Noahs_Ark.jpg/200px-Noahs_Ark.jpg

It was black and designed with a roof only 18” above the gunwale.

Check out the Hebrew. Gopher wood? Rooms? Pitch? Window (this is the lighted stone)? We don’t know accurately what Gopher wood is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_wood It is quite literally a unique word. There isn’t another like it in the Bible or in Hebrew. It might very well have been a unique item made especially for Noah by God, similar to the big fish that ate Jonah.

Here’s the word for “rooms” (nests): http://concordances.org/hebrew/7064.htm

“pitch”: http://concordances.org/hebrew/3724.htm

“cubit” - this is usually interpreted as the length of the king’s arm, but who does Noah go to to measure this? Is it the length of Jehovah’s arm? http://concordances.org/hebrew/520.htm

Remember it is described as 30 cubits high from bottom to top. Does that include the cubit above the gunwale? Where’s the water line? It’s open to interpretation. Remember this is a craft designed and graced by God.

Here’s the miracle stone: tsohar: http://concordances.org/hebrew/6672.htm It glows like the noonday sun.

So given the above the Ark of Noah very much could look like this: https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7FU2vO3LDiHfZ5eMa42nlqwTwqize0Dd7Rb9o0gGJo2DCs8LYQw

As an aside, don’t disparage the things of God. His miracles are distinct from magic. Magic is false and you’re being intentionally derogatory. If we’re to have a conversation I expect, if not Christian, than American common courtesy.


78 posted on 05/05/2012 2:50:58 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD
So you “lighted stone” is supposition from the term window...

Um kay...

As far as derogatory, nice redirect but when it comes to things of Mormonism and its fictional stories it might as well be magic, since it is not from God...

And what it says and the way it treats my Savior is far more derogatory then anything I could dream up...

79 posted on 05/07/2012 2:21:22 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

Try again, FRiend:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=tsohar&oq=tsohar&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.2008.4264.0.5378.6.4.0.0.0.0.620.1049.2-2j5-1.3.0...0.0.lTNWjw0anbQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b001bd3a40637c26&biw=1152&bih=734

http://concordances.org/hebrew/6672.htm

http://www.indyfan.com/ark/tsohar.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=1466

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/4275/noah-finding-light-in-shadow-of-darkness/

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=06672

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/tsohar.html

Light is most certainly what it must mean. The OT has words for window. Once again ignorant, bumpkin Joseph Smith, Jr. hits it out of the park. His theology is more sophisticated and accurate, Biblically accurate, than any Christian theology of his time.

He gets it right again and again on fundamental Christian doctrine like theosis, priesthood authority, baptism as a fundamental step in salvation and... a lighted stone in a Jaredite ship. These ships look very much the same in design and have the tsohar as a miraculous source of light. It’s incredible and eventually you’ll admit it.

As for Jesus Christ, he’s the central prospect of the Book of Mormon. He’s as described in the NT and the OT.


80 posted on 05/07/2012 9:31:35 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD
Except for the Indiana Jones (and maybe another I did not go back a look again) all your sources speak of a window and or the noon day sun as Tsohar, not a lit stone. That the one source you stated that argued for a pearl or a stone is the Indysite, a fan site for a fictionial Archaeologist, ironies indeed abound...

Once again ignorant, bumpkin Joseph Smith, Jr. hits it out of the park.

That and the rest (especially the theosis bit) pretty much negates any argument you can make.

There is nothing "Christian" about the LDS, you guys just took his name and ran with it.

That you and yours have to latch onto historical and archaeological histories of others to try and "validate" the fiction of Smith is fun to watch...

81 posted on 05/08/2012 8:58:31 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

http://concordances.org/hebrew/strongs_6672.htm

Tsohar is used 24 times in the OT. 23/24 times it is translated as noonday. It is only translated once as window and that is not considered a good translation.

Noah took the noonday with him on the Ark...or something that shone like the noonday. Not wanting to believe something doesn’t make it go away. It is very Hebrew to call a thing (noun) and the thing it does (verb).

The Jaredite story is much more detailed and specific than the Noah story. Yet we have two ship’s built to God’s specifications each one with a miraculous light. They’d look like similar designs. Smith got this while 99/100 Bible scholars would tell you that Noah’s Ark looks like the child’s toy you see in pictures. They’re wrong, Joseph Smith is right and so am I.

You don’t find people more Christian than the LDS.


82 posted on 05/08/2012 3:23:01 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD
Even your link says nothing about a mystical miraculous lit stone, just a window and the noon day sun.

It is straight supposition on your and others part to try and fit the BoM fiction in with the Bible.

They’re wrong, Joseph Smith is right and so am I. You don’t find people more Christian than the LDS.

I can't decide it that's insulting or hilarious...

Considering the source the latter is a safe bet.

83 posted on 05/09/2012 12:22:36 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

How did Noah get “noonday” into the Ark?


84 posted on 05/11/2012 6:37:57 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

With a window at noon. Like everyone else...


85 posted on 05/11/2012 9:37:45 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22

WEAK and disingenuous.


86 posted on 05/12/2012 4:38:31 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Yes your argument is weak and disingenious. Mine is based on the very sources YOU posted including Strongs who use the term window or noonday sun and make NO REFERENCE WHAT SO EVER to magic glowing rocks.

Oh except the Indiana Jones Fan site...

Fiction lovers pushing fiction. Ripe for Mormon “conversion”...

Do you really want to keep this up I really have no need to have my point proven over and over...


87 posted on 05/12/2012 7:23:22 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Yes your argument is weak and disingenious. Mine is based on the very sources YOU posted including Strongs who use the term window or noonday sun and make NO REFERENCE WHAT SO EVER to magic glowing rocks.

Oh except the Indiana Jones Fan site...

Fiction lovers pushing fiction. Ripe for Mormon “conversion”...

Do you really want to keep this up I really have no need to have my point proven over and over...


88 posted on 05/12/2012 7:23:22 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Yes your argument is weak and disingenious. Mine is based on the very sources YOU posted including Strongs who use the term window or noonday sun and make NO REFERENCE WHAT SO EVER to magic glowing rocks.

Oh except the Indiana Jones Fan site...

Fiction lovers pushing fiction. Ripe for Mormon “conversion”...

Do you really want to keep this up I really have no need to have my point proven over and over...


89 posted on 05/12/2012 7:23:26 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

http://concordances.org/hebrew/6672.htm

Genesis 6:16

http://bible.cc/genesis/6-16.htm

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/4275/noah-finding-light-in-shadow-of-darkness/


90 posted on 05/12/2012 11:33:09 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
In your desperate anti-Mormon state you're over looking the truth. As a Christian you cannot be an enemy to the truth, lest you serve the wrong master.

This is my last comment on the matter:

http://bible.cc/genesis/6-16.htm

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

A window shalt thou make - What this was cannot be absolutely ascertained. The original word צהר tsohar signifies clear or bright; the Septuagint translate it by επωυναγων, "collecting, thou shalt make the ark," which plainly shows they did not understand the word as signifying any kind of window or light. Symmacbus translates it διαφανες, a transparency; and Aquila, μεσημβρινον, the noon. Jonathan ben Uzziel supposes that it was a precious luminous stone which Noah, by Divine command, brought from the river Pison. It is probably a word which should be taken in a collective sense, signifying apertures for air and light.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

A window shalt thou make to the ark,.... Or a "light", such as is that at noon, for which the word in the dual number is used; and therefore Junius and Tremellius translate it a "clear light". The Jewish writers (s) will have it to be a precious stone, a pearl which Noah fetched from the river Pison, and hung up in the ark, and it gave light to all the creatures, like a large chandelier; but a window no doubt it was to let light into the several apartments, and to look out at on occasion, since Noah is afterwards said to open it; but what it was made of is difficult to say, since it does not appear that as yet glass was invented. Some think it was made of crystal, which would let in light, and keep off the water.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

None of the above are LDS sites. All list something very much like the Jaredite stones as a possible interpretation. This information isn't readily available to the average Christian because this isn't taught. So today with our modern information technology perhaps a handful of Christian scholars are aware of the real meaning of tsohar. Likely 0% of Christian scholars were aware of it in Joseph Smith's time and he certainly wasn't.

Hence the argument for a divine source for the Jaredite story, given the consistent parallels with the Noah story.

Also, keep in mind the following:

1. "to make" http://concordances.org/hebrew/6213.htm clearly means that one must do something - action on the part of Noah.

2. The Ark interior isn't an open space like an indoor gymnasium or sports arena. Its construction includes clear direction to make "rooms/nests/apartments" and therefore a single window wouldn't suffice for lighting.

So with a semblance of intellectual honesty, not to mention Christian honesty, one can very logically and reasonably conclude that the Jaredite story isn't unBiblical. The opposite is true: it is wholly Biblical.

91 posted on 05/12/2012 11:53:12 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
In your desperate anti-Mormon state you're over looking the truth. As a Christian you cannot be an enemy to the truth, lest you serve the wrong master.

This is my last comment on the matter:

http://bible.cc/genesis/6-16.htm

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

A window shalt thou make - What this was cannot be absolutely ascertained. The original word צהר tsohar signifies clear or bright; the Septuagint translate it by επωυναγων, "collecting, thou shalt make the ark," which plainly shows they did not understand the word as signifying any kind of window or light. Symmacbus translates it διαφανες, a transparency; and Aquila, μεσημβρινον, the noon. Jonathan ben Uzziel supposes that it was a precious luminous stone which Noah, by Divine command, brought from the river Pison. It is probably a word which should be taken in a collective sense, signifying apertures for air and light.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

A window shalt thou make to the ark,.... Or a "light", such as is that at noon, for which the word in the dual number is used; and therefore Junius and Tremellius translate it a "clear light". The Jewish writers (s) will have it to be a precious stone, a pearl which Noah fetched from the river Pison, and hung up in the ark, and it gave light to all the creatures, like a large chandelier; but a window no doubt it was to let light into the several apartments, and to look out at on occasion, since Noah is afterwards said to open it; but what it was made of is difficult to say, since it does not appear that as yet glass was invented. Some think it was made of crystal, which would let in light, and keep off the water.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

None of the above are LDS sites. All list something very much like the Jaredite stones as a possible interpretation. This information isn't readily available to the average Christian because this isn't taught. So today with our modern information technology perhaps a handful of Christian scholars are aware of the real meaning of tsohar. Likely 0% of Christian scholars were aware of it in Joseph Smith's time and he certainly wasn't.

Hence the argument for a divine source for the Jaredite story, given the consistent parallels with the Noah story.

Also, keep in mind the following:

1. "to make" http://concordances.org/hebrew/6213.htm clearly means that one must do something - action on the part of Noah.

2. The Ark interior isn't an open space like an indoor gymnasium or sports arena. Its construction includes clear direction to make "rooms/nests/apartments" and therefore a single window wouldn't suffice for lighting.

So with a semblance of intellectual honesty, not to mention Christian honesty, one can very logically and reasonably conclude that the Jaredite story isn't unBiblical. The opposite is true: it is wholly Biblical.

92 posted on 05/12/2012 11:54:11 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: ejonesie22
In your desperate anti-Mormon state you're over looking the truth. As a Christian you cannot be an enemy to the truth, lest you serve the wrong master.

This is my last comment on the matter:

http://bible.cc/genesis/6-16.htm

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

A window shalt thou make - What this was cannot be absolutely ascertained. The original word צהר tsohar signifies clear or bright; the Septuagint translate it by επωυναγων, "collecting, thou shalt make the ark," which plainly shows they did not understand the word as signifying any kind of window or light. Symmacbus translates it διαφανες, a transparency; and Aquila, μεσημβρινον, the noon. Jonathan ben Uzziel supposes that it was a precious luminous stone which Noah, by Divine command, brought from the river Pison. It is probably a word which should be taken in a collective sense, signifying apertures for air and light.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

A window shalt thou make to the ark,.... Or a "light", such as is that at noon, for which the word in the dual number is used; and therefore Junius and Tremellius translate it a "clear light". The Jewish writers (s) will have it to be a precious stone, a pearl which Noah fetched from the river Pison, and hung up in the ark, and it gave light to all the creatures, like a large chandelier; but a window no doubt it was to let light into the several apartments, and to look out at on occasion, since Noah is afterwards said to open it; but what it was made of is difficult to say, since it does not appear that as yet glass was invented. Some think it was made of crystal, which would let in light, and keep off the water.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

None of the above are LDS sites. All list something very much like the Jaredite stones as a possible interpretation. This information isn't readily available to the average Christian because this isn't taught. So today with our modern information technology perhaps a handful of Christian scholars are aware of the real meaning of tsohar. Likely 0% of Christian scholars were aware of it in Joseph Smith's time and he certainly wasn't.

Hence the argument for a divine source for the Jaredite story, given the consistent parallels with the Noah story.

Also, keep in mind the following:

1. "to make" http://concordances.org/hebrew/6213.htm clearly means that one must do something - action on the part of Noah.

2. The Ark interior isn't an open space like an indoor gymnasium or sports arena. Its construction includes clear direction to make "rooms/nests/apartments" and therefore a single window wouldn't suffice for lighting.

So with a semblance of intellectual honesty, not to mention Christian honesty, one can very logically and reasonably conclude that the Jaredite story isn't unBiblical. The opposite is true: it is wholly Biblical.

93 posted on 05/12/2012 11:55:30 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-93 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson