Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

'Faster-ticking clock' indicates early solar system may have evolved faster than we think
PHYS.ORG ^ | 05/01/2012

Posted on 05/03/2012 3:05:41 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

Our solar system is four and a half billion years old, but its formation may have occurred over a shorter period of time than we previously thought, says an international team of researchers from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and universities and laboratories in the US and Japan.

Establishing chronologies of past events or determining ages of objects require having clocks that tick at different paces, according to how far back one looks. Nuclear clocks, used for dating, are based on the rate of decay of an atomic nucleus expressed by a half-life, the time it takes for half of a number of nuclei to decay, a property of each nuclear species.

Radiocarbon dating for example, invented in Chicago in the late 1940s and refined ever since, can date artifacts back to prehistoric times because the half-life of radiocarbon (carbon-14) is a few thousand years. The evaluation of ages of the history of earth or of the solar system requires extremely "slow-paced" chronometers consisting of nuclear clocks with much longer half-lives. The activity of one of these clocks, known as nucleus samarium-146 (146Sm), was examined by Michael Paul, the Kalman and Malke Cooper Professor of Nuclear Physics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, as well as researchers from the University of Notre Dame and the Argonne National Laboratory in the US and from two Japanese universities.

146Sm belongs to a family of nuclear species which were "live" in our sun and its solar system when they were born. Events thereafter, and within a few hundred million years, are dated by the amount of 146Sm that was left in various mineral archives until its eventual "extinction."

146Sm has become the main tool for establishing the time evolution of the solar system over its first few hundred million years. This by itself owes to a delicate geochemical property of the element samarium, a rare element in nature. It is a sensitive probe for the separation, or differentiation, of the silicate portion of earth and of other planetary bodies.

The main result of the work of the international scientists, detailed in a recent article in the journal Science, is a new determination of the half-life of 146Sm, previously adopted as 103 million years, to a much shorter value of 68 million years. The shorter half-life value, like a clock ticking faster, has the effect of shrinking the assessed chronology of events in the early solar system and in planetary differentiation into a shorter time span.

The new time scale, interestingly, is now consistent with a recent and precise dating made on a lunar rock and is in better agreement with the dating obtained with other chronometers.

The measurement of the half-life of 146Sm, performed over several years by the collaborators, involved the use of the ATLAS particle accelerator at Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois.

Provided by Hebrew University of Jerusalem.


TOPICS: Astronomy; Science
KEYWORDS: catastrophism; creation; evolution; solarsystem; xplanets

1 posted on 05/03/2012 3:05:50 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Some questions come to mind as I read this article:

How many published papers are affected by this change?

Papers often quote radiometric dates to 4 or more significant figures. Theorists rely on these values.

If values are not discovered but “adopted,” is it possible there was motivation by theorists to “adopt” a different value to create consistency with other chronometers?

Does the new value make the “assessed chronology of events in the early system” more or less plausible?

What will be the ripple effect from here on for a chronometer that ticks 33% faster than previously thought?

Who will go back and correct theories based on the previous value?


2 posted on 05/03/2012 3:07:37 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; ...
Oh, Boy!

Here we go.

3 posted on 05/03/2012 3:18:23 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
If I'm reading the article correctly it will affect theories that involve timelines of events in the first few million years of the formation of the solar system, when this is the only clock they have to measure from.

After that, other clocks that are easier to read become available.

4 posted on 05/03/2012 3:24:43 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS

Want some popcorn? :) /popcorn


5 posted on 05/03/2012 3:39:37 PM PDT by Sudetenland (Anybody but Obama!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

6 posted on 05/03/2012 3:52:32 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

/mark


7 posted on 05/03/2012 4:48:59 PM PDT by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Evolutionists are not going to be happy...


8 posted on 05/03/2012 4:54:43 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Sudetenland
"Want some popcorn?"

Thanks . . . I'll wait a bit. ( ^8 }

9 posted on 05/03/2012 5:14:49 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic

I think you understand correctly. It specifically affects theories that involve separations of materials, as the article says. The actual age of the solar system is pretty well established. For instance rock ages on earth are measured by looking at Uranium and its decay products. These half-lives are quite accurately known and not in question.


10 posted on 05/03/2012 5:26:07 PM PDT by AndyJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: SaraJohnson

None of this affects anything as recent as the development of life. It Has zero impact on TOE


11 posted on 05/03/2012 5:57:39 PM PDT by muir_redwoods (I like Obamacare because Granny signed the will and I need the cash)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: AndyJackson
AndyJackson said: "These half-lives are quite accurately known and not in question."

This makes my head hurt.

Doesn't General Relativity predict that any clock in a gravitational field will run slow? Thus, any clock in the vicinity of the big bang will run slow?

How's anything going to get done if it takes forever for a clock to tick? To an observer external to this nearly infinite gravitational field, isn't it going to appear that nothing happens for a very long time?

When it is stated that the universe is, say, twenty billion years old, just whose clock are they using? Are there any Freeper cosmologists who can summarize twenty billion years for me?

12 posted on 05/03/2012 7:32:01 PM PDT by William Tell
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: William Tell
The formation of the solar system came long long after the big bang. The presence of heavy elements shows that we are a later generation development - condensed out of the remnants of earlier supernovae explosions.

The gravitational forces in our solar system are very week, and therefore general relativistic corrections are parts in a million or much less than that. They can be measured only with the most precise and stable atomic clocks.

13 posted on 05/03/2012 7:36:53 PM PDT by AndyJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Bookmark


14 posted on 05/03/2012 8:27:48 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS

Thanks for the ping!


15 posted on 05/03/2012 9:26:29 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Cool! I read about this in the future.


16 posted on 05/03/2012 9:32:39 PM PDT by right way right (What's it gonna take?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: William Tell; AndyJackson; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; YHAOS

“The formation of the solar system came long long after the big bang”

Spirited: In other words, before all else there was a void (nothingness) out of which emerged self-created primordial matter, the beginning of all things, a cosmic egg.

Circling the cosmic egg was Chronos (Time) who split the egg apart (big bang)to form the universe of earth, sea, sky, and life.

In Darwin’s tale, the cosmic egg was lain upon primordial waters of the earth.

Returning to the big bang version, that Chronos split apart the cosmic egg is evidenced by “The presence of heavy elements...” that show “...that we are a later generation development - condensed out of (hatched out of) the remnants of earlier supernovae explosions.”

Now either the living, personal supernatural God IS, and He called all things into existence from nothing (creatio ex nihilo) or primordial matter (cosmic egg) spontaneously generated itself from nothing (void, abyss) after which all things and life evolved (hatched) over Time (Chronos) into what they are today.


17 posted on 05/04/2012 2:16:06 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: William Tell
When it is stated that the universe is, say, twenty billion years old, just whose clock are they using?

Here you ask a very good and very deep question. It is "our" clock transformed into a fictive clock that is extrapolated at its present ticking rate back in time to when the big bang had to have occurred past upon the measured separation rates of galaxies. It assumes that "our clock" would have remained in a weak gravitational field the entire time. What it means to extrapolate into the high gravitational fiedl at the time the big bang occurred is a hard philosophical question.

18 posted on 05/04/2012 5:00:38 AM PDT by AndyJackson
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS

Paging Ken Ham, paging Ken Ham.


19 posted on 05/04/2012 5:17:05 AM PDT by Sawdring
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
Now either the living, personal supernatural God IS, and He called all things into existence from nothing (creatio ex nihilo) or primordial matter (cosmic egg) spontaneously generated itself from nothing (void, abyss) after which all things and life evolved (hatched) over Time (Chronos) into what they are today.

Why is God having created the egg not allowed?

20 posted on 05/04/2012 5:24:44 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear spirited irish!


21 posted on 05/04/2012 6:12:12 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; YHAOS

Why is God having created the egg not allowed?

Spirited: Now either God spoke or He did not, as evolutionists of every stripe believe. But He did speak, and in His revelations to man God said nothing about cosmic eggs.

Futhermore, it is not for man to allow or disallow God to create cosmic eggs. This arrogant nonsense belongs to egoists.


22 posted on 05/04/2012 7:09:38 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
Futhermore, it is not for man to allow or disallow God to create cosmic eggs. This arrogant nonsense belongs to egoists.

In science, every proposition is subject to critical assesment and questioning. Do you want theology to be afforded equal treatment in that arena, or not?

23 posted on 05/04/2012 7:12:50 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Sawdring
Paging Ken Ham, paging Ken Ham.

LOL! If I had wanted to beep him, I would have.

24 posted on 05/04/2012 10:26:50 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
Now either the living, personal supernatural God IS, and He called all things into existence from nothing (creatio ex nihilo) or primordial matter (cosmic egg) spontaneously generated itself from nothing (void, abyss) after which all things and life evolved (hatched) over Time (Chronos) into what they are today.

A choice between two versions of miraculous creation: either the work of The Lord, or, like Topsey, it just growed.

25 posted on 05/04/2012 10:29:56 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
This arrogant nonsense belongs to egoists."

This is key to understanding The Lord’s many admonitions about humility.

26 posted on 05/04/2012 10:42:42 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: YHAOS
This is key to understanding The Lord’s many admonitions about humility.

How is questioning the age and formation of Earth any more arrogant than questioning whether man can fly, or whether a fungus can be used to fight an infection, or whether a mathematical construct such as a Higgs Boson really exists?

Science is Science. Faith is Faith. Both however are subject to being preyed upon by the hobgoblins of dogmatism.

27 posted on 05/04/2012 11:04:19 AM PDT by Sirius Lee (When we cease to be good we'll cease to be great. So vote for Goode.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic; YHAOS; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

“In science, every proposition is subject to critical assesment and questioning”

Spirited: Science? What science?!? Chaos, Cosmic Eggs, vast quantities of Chronos fairy-dust, and Trees of Life (process philosophy) rightly belong in a file marked “magic” and “superstition.”


28 posted on 05/04/2012 11:09:41 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

bflr


29 posted on 05/04/2012 1:52:02 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: William Tell; YHAOS; metmom; betty boop

It makes your head hurt because you’re using it.

Great questions.

You see, you just have to be a little more patient and wait a few billion years and then you too would understand how these liberal clocks work.


30 posted on 05/04/2012 6:18:00 PM PDT by tpanther (Science was, is and will forever be a small subset of God's creation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
Spirited: Science? What science?!? Chaos, Cosmic Eggs, vast quantities of Chronos fairy-dust, and Trees of Life (process philosophy) rightly belong in a file marked “magic” and “superstition.”

So you're basically here just to throw poo at the study of radiometric dating in general?

31 posted on 05/04/2012 6:22:09 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: tpanther
"It makes your head hurt because you’re using it."

LOL!

"Are there any Freeper cosmologists who can summarize twenty billion years for me?"

I'm not a cosmologists, but I would summarize with "twenty blinks of an eye."

32 posted on 05/04/2012 6:47:44 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Sirius Lee
"Science is Science. Faith is Faith. Both however are subject to being preyed upon by the hobgoblins of dogmatism."

And this would afflict neither, if they were approached with a little humility.

33 posted on 05/04/2012 6:58:27 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: tacticalogic; YHAOS; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

“So you’re basically here just to throw poo at the study of radiometric dating in general?”

Spirited: And are you not basically here to lead people into belief in a metaphysical system-—”Chaos, Cosmic Eggs, vast quantities of Chronos fairy-dust, and Trees of Life (process philosophy)”—— by deceptively coloring it as empirical science?

As you try to lead people astray keep this in mind at all times: Moments after your body dies your immortal soul will be standing before its Creator and you will be held accountable for what you have done in this world.


34 posted on 05/05/2012 2:10:19 AM PDT by spirited irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: spirited irish
Spirited: And are you not basically here to lead people into belief in a metaphysical system-—”Chaos, Cosmic Eggs, vast quantities of Chronos fairy-dust, and Trees of Life (process philosophy)”—— by deceptively coloring it as empirical science?

No, I'm here to talk about physics. You dragged all the cosmic-egg/fairy dust talk into the conversation.

As you try to lead people astray keep this in mind at all times: Moments after your body dies your immortal soul will be standing before its Creator and you will be held accountable for what you have done in this world.

Then that'll be between Him and I, won't it? Thankfully, I'll be judged on what I've actually done and said, not by words you put into my mouth and motives you falsely claim I have. You get to answer for that when your time comes.

35 posted on 05/05/2012 7:30:48 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: KevinDavis; annie laurie; Knitting A Conundrum; Viking2002; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Mmogamer; ...

Thanks KoRn.
...formation may have occurred over a shorter period of time than we previously thought, says an international team of researchers from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and universities and laboratories in the US and Japan.
 
X-Planets
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic · subscribe ·
Google news searches: exoplanet · exosolar · extrasolar ·

36 posted on 05/05/2012 9:29:56 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: KoRn; 75thOVI; agrace; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; ...

Thanks KoRn.
...formation may have occurred over a shorter period of time than we previously thought, says an international team of researchers from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and universities and laboratories in the US and Japan.



37 posted on 05/05/2012 9:30:49 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The solar system did not evolve. It was created by God.


38 posted on 05/05/2012 9:33:47 AM PDT by sport
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

to determine time based on half life - one must know the amount that existed at the start....they don’t know how much there really was at the start so they “estimate” what they think it was. (it’s a freakin wild assed guess)


39 posted on 05/05/2012 6:42:57 PM PDT by reed13k (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Faster then seven days?


40 posted on 05/06/2012 5:15:23 PM PDT by GregB (Sarah please save us from Mitt!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson