Skip to comments.Army Begins Phase Two of the Individual Carbine Competition
Posted on 05/25/2012 8:39:14 AM PDT by re_tail20
The US Army is moving forward with their competition to evaluate rifles which may be selected to replace the M4. Part of the ongoing process to see if the market can provide a rifle that shows measurable improvement over the M4 that started back in 2005 with the XM8 project, it appears as if at least five companies have made it to round two of the Individual Carbine competition.
The companies that are moving on to the second stage are Adcor Defense, Colt Defense, FNH USA, Heckler & Koch and Remington. The rifles are the Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, the Colt ACC-M (sometimes called the ACM), the FN FNAC, the Heckler & Koch HK416 and the Remington ACR.
There may be others who have also made the cut but not spoken up; regulations prohibit the Army from publishing which companies are moving on, while these companies have announced their success independently.
"The Army's intent is to ensure that the competition is as fair as possible," Army spokesman Matthew Bourke said in a written response to a Military.com request. "The Army does not want to adversely affect the competition in any way. Providing the names of potential offerors; the number of proposals received, and/or any details pertaining to the offerors and/or their proposals has the potential to skew the competition."
Phase one of the competition was to see which companies could meet the Army's "Threshold Requirements," which include technical specifications of the rifles that must be met for the rifle to be considered at all, such as rails for optics and other accessories which have become necessary in the field, and the ability to use existing M320 grenade launchers and M26 shotguns...
(Excerpt) Read more at guns.com ...
They should just go back to the M1 Garand and be done with it.
Wonder if Red Jacket is in the running with their “ultimate AR platform” or something like that.
This thread is useless without pictures.
Every rifle here is just another Armalite-heritage M16/M4 style firearm except for the FN FNAC (an updated FN SCAR) and the Remington ACR (the Remington-ized Magpul 'Masada').
I really hope these aren't the final candidates. If they're going to break the chains of the shortcomings in the original Armalite design, then they need to stop accepting submissions based on that design.
Any time a firearms-related thread is created on FreeRepublic, please be sure to add the "banglist" keyword to it so that interested FReepers don't miss it. Just a suggestion.
Let Freedom Ring,
The link has pictures.
The link has pictures.
The link has pictures.
“Wonder if Red Jacket is in the running with their ultimate AR platform or something like that.”
They are seriously considering Red Jacket Stephanie’s Ultimate Pink AR Platform for the new First Marine Rump Ranger Battalion now that GAY BE OK.
I’d like them to consider 6.5 or 6.8 as a minimum cartridge. I tend to favor more accruate, longer range, heavy hitting rounds. Would truely like them to go to the 7.62 Nato. If small size is needed, you can convert the M14 to a bullpup configuration.
I can't imagine the US Army material procurement people accepting a bullpup design, but the features of the Steyr AUG need to be looked at, even though it has it's own shortcomings. You're right in that the only way to get a full length barrel in a compact maneuverable package for CQB and rapid response to/from motor vehicle transport is to adopt the bullpup style. If they're going to go that far, then they might as well adopt Steyr's instant-change barrel feature as well.
I've seen AR15-breed rifles offering 'Quick change barrels', but all of these need time and tools to accomplish at the armory where the Steyr AUG can be changed immediately in the field from the standard 20" rifleman barrel to a shorty 14" commando barrel or to a 24" squad marksman barrel.
Downside of bullpup rifles is the trigger pull and length of pull off the non-adjustable clamshell-style stock not comfortably fitting soldiers of various sizes, though the last issue is distinctly an American military characteristic: The Austrians have Tyrolian mountain climbing soldiers who are all pretty much two meters tall and don't have to worry about how their AUG length of pull fits a 5'4" Latina soldier from New Mexico.
There have been a lot of folks who've never really examined the AUG that describe it as the ugliest rifle they've ever seen, but once you give a doubter the chance to use it themselves they're quickly convinced that Steyr-Mannlicher was at least a half century ahead of their time when they developed the StG77 'AUG' rifle.
Dang it! If it don’t have a lever action and shoot pistol ammo it ain’t a carbine. (Shuffles off, muttering darkly...)
I agree. There are lots of choices out there that would fill the gap nicely, including even the old .280 British or for that matter, the .250 Savage, to say nothing of the whole host of newer rounds.
"If small size is needed, you can convert the M14 to a bullpup configuration."
Kel-Tec, of all people, makes a 7.62 bullpup called the RFD. From what I've read/heard/seen (never fired one) it had some bugs not uncommon in a new design but they've been working through them. It uses standard FAL mags and has a unique front ejection making it suitable for left and right handed shooters. It may not be the "right" weapons for our military, but it certainly presents a number of concepts worth exploring further.
A long time ago, one of the most frequently cited objections was the shortened sight radius. Optical sights have made that a non-issue.
Or off my FR page with lots of other good gun references, links etc .... free !
40 watt range?
“One shot, one incineration.”
Dang it, Laz, now I am going to have to fire up New Vegas...
I have been using a Hk 416 for a year now an thousands rounds in training and quals etc ...... without a problem, and I have tried to reproduce all the problems I encountered during my military career with the M16 platform. All Black Hills Mk 262 is issued. DODIC is A053.
Gear and memorymatic handling skills as well as ergonomics of the Hk 416 is why I suggest keeping it as a basic issue.
I’d enjoy these threads a lot more if any of these were actually legally available to us peasants.
It’s a gun! And all this time I’ve been deleting those e-mails...
I’ve always deleted those emails as well. I mean, who needs two?
First thing I was going to ask. $:-)
We should shut down these idiotic small weapons projects. The DOD isn’t going to select any of the outcomes of whatever testing they use.
Colt already has the contracts wired and the skids greased in Congress. Unless and until someone puts Colt out of business (and they deserve to be put out of business), we’re not moving away from the M16/M4 or the 5.56 NATO round.
For general combat, go to a SOCOM M1A. KISS never goes out of style.
It’s Bawney Fwank’s wonderland.
I’m flabbergasted there has been no viable attempt to overturn 922(o).
“We should shut down these idiotic small weapons projects. The DOD isnt going to select any of the outcomes of whatever testing they use.
Colt already has the contracts wired and the skids greased in Congress. Unless and until someone puts Colt out of business (and they deserve to be put out of business), were not moving away from the M16/M4 or the 5.56 NATO round.”
Just yesterday I read a report that Remington has received a contract to make new M4s.
Not gonna happen. They have 614.68 gazillion berillion gumillion rounds inventoried in 5.56. They also keep insisting that it is doing fine, reporting excellent accuracy at way-out there ranges, too.
Some fellows report that it isn't really lethal enough, being a now highly stabilized, light weight, 77 gr bullet. Sort of drills neat holes where you want them, but doesn't always put the bad guys away quick enough.
Not quite right, possibly.
Colt had to return the technical data rights on the M4 and no longer has a monopoly.
They recently had to hire a lobbyist for the first time, like the other companies.
The big hurdle isn’t Colt, but the M4 itself.
The Army has set a very high bar for the other rifles. Any rifle that wants to take the place of the M4 has to first outperform the improved M4 in testing. It then has to prove to the Army that its improved performance is economically worth it to replace all of the M4’s.
But it is possible for Remington, FN, and or Heckler and Koch to clear both these obstacles, deliver superior performance in both of these, and put the Army in a place where it can’t pull any bureaucratic tricks.
... and if the new chosen M4 replacement appears with an rapid change barrel where each barrel has it's own integrated gas piston, we'll know where that idea came from too.
Well, slap my butt cheeks and call me Shirley!
It’s good to see that the Army has finally, *finally* decided to wake up and realize how badly Colt was screwing the Army and the taxpayer:
I agree. With the tooling, supply channels, NATO compatibility, etc... we’re not moving away from the 5.56 anytime soon.
This all could have been prevented.... but decisions in the past led us here.
For example: The Garand was about to go into big-time production. A decision had to be made - whether we’d stick with the .30-06 (of which we had quite a bit laying about), or go with the outcome/findings of the Goat & Pig Boards and he desire of Garand himself, the .276 Pedersen. MacArthur went with the .30-06, based pretty much on only the ammo we had on hand.
If we’d been using an intermediate-power 6.5 to 7mm bullet of 150gr or less (like the .276), we probably would not have had the 5.56, nor the 7.62x51, which was a compromise to keep a .30 cal bullet in an slightly less powerful form for the full-auto M14. If we’d changed away from the .30-06 when we went semi-auto, we’d probably still be using something like the .276 today in full-auto weapons.
Been hunting with the 6.5 X 55 since I was a Boy Scout and bought a Swede Mauser for $39.95 mail order!* Still can hit the pie plate at 200.
* of course I have a fancy one now. Sweet shooter.
In the next year, I plan on building two 7mm rifles: One in .284 (for which I’ll neck up 6.5x284 brass) and a 7mm WSM. I happened upon a short 1924 Yugo action on which someone had opened up the bolt face for .535 heads, so it seems like a natural fit.
I debated between the 6.5 and 7mm for a long time, as there are really good choices in both, with more established cartridges with more brass available in the 6.5’s. In the end, my preference for heavier bullets with higher Bc’s won out... there’s some new stuff out there in 7mm which is just spectacular... and for that, I’ll just put up with the brass issue and hoard all I can find and make it fit.
Look at the 7mm vs. the 6.5. I’m sure you could design a 6.5 to achieve the same, but you’d need to tighten the twist as the bullet should be getting pretty long.
So we’ve pretty much convinced everyone who doesn’t work for the government that there’s something to this 6.5 to 7mm obsession... but no matter. They’ll still be using 5.56 for quite some time to come, if for no other reason than to make the recoil acceptable to the women they’re going to let join the Rangers and other combat groups.
Check out the 260 Remington. It’s a commercial version of the 6.5/.308. Hot.
Love the Steampunk look!
I have, along with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5x47 Lapua (which had been my 6.5 choice).
Nothing wrong with any of them - I just wanted “more” in the way of Bc.
Two ways to skin that Bc cat! Long and Light, or Long and Heavy!
I would imagine a .264 160 grain bullet would have an excellent Bc. I don’t know the exact twist for the old Swedish Mausers but I am sure it was very fast to stabilize those long bullets.
My own guess is the .260 Remington would be a perfect base for a standard military infantry cartridge. It would be deadly, very good at long range and has enough capacity to allow some pretty hot loads.
The greatest elephant hunter of them all, Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell killed over 5000 elephants mostly using the little 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher (or was it 53mm long?) He also liked the heavy 160 grain bullets.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.