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Army Begins Phase Two of the Individual Carbine Competition
guns.com ^ | May 4, 2012 | Max Slowik

Posted on 05/25/2012 8:39:14 AM PDT by re_tail20

The US Army is moving forward with their competition to evaluate rifles which may be selected to replace the M4. Part of the ongoing process to see if the market can provide a rifle that shows measurable improvement over the M4 that started back in 2005 with the XM8 project, it appears as if at least five companies have made it to round two of the Individual Carbine competition.

The companies that are moving on to the second stage are Adcor Defense, Colt Defense, FNH USA, Heckler & Koch and Remington. The rifles are the Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, the Colt ACC-M (sometimes called the ACM), the FN FNAC, the Heckler & Koch HK416 and the Remington ACR.

There may be others who have also made the cut but not spoken up; regulations prohibit the Army from publishing which companies are moving on, while these companies have announced their success independently.

"The Army's intent is to ensure that the competition is as fair as possible," Army spokesman Matthew Bourke said in a written response to a Military.com request. "The Army does not want to adversely affect the competition in any way. Providing the names of potential offerors; the number of proposals received, and/or any details pertaining to the offerors and/or their proposals has the potential to skew the competition."

Phase one of the competition was to see which companies could meet the Army's "Threshold Requirements," which include technical specifications of the rifles that must be met for the rifle to be considered at all, such as rails for optics and other accessories which have become necessary in the field, and the ability to use existing M320 grenade launchers and M26 shotguns...

(Excerpt) Read more at guns.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: armycarbinem4; banglist; guns; rkba
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1 posted on 05/25/2012 8:39:22 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: re_tail20

They should just go back to the M1 Garand and be done with it.


2 posted on 05/25/2012 8:51:49 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: re_tail20

Wonder if Red Jacket is in the running with their “ultimate AR platform” or something like that.


3 posted on 05/25/2012 8:57:29 AM PDT by mcshot (God bless the USA! OMG PLEASE vote ABO or OWW and our Country dies.)
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To: re_tail20

This thread is useless without pictures.


4 posted on 05/25/2012 8:59:09 AM PDT by Lazamataz (The so-called 'mainstream' media has gone from "biased" straight to "utterly surreal".)
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To: re_tail20
"... The rifles are the Adcor Defense BEAR Elite, the Colt ACC-M (sometimes called the ACM), the FN FNAC, the Heckler & Koch HK416 and the Remington ACR."

Every rifle here is just another Armalite-heritage M16/M4 style firearm except for the FN FNAC (an updated FN SCAR) and the Remington ACR (the Remington-ized Magpul 'Masada').

I really hope these aren't the final candidates. If they're going to break the chains of the shortcomings in the original Armalite design, then they need to stop accepting submissions based on that design.

5 posted on 05/25/2012 9:04:24 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: re_tail20
IMHO, as long as the military continues to insist on using the 5.56 x 45, they would do well to move to a bullpup layout. The M4 length is certainly handy for CQB, but a lot of velocity is surrendered with that shorter barrel. While the Brits have had a host of problems with their SA80, the Steyr Aug has served any number of our allies well for decades, and even the French FA-MAS has acquitted itself well. As long as the military insists on a carbine length primary arm, they should avail themselves of the full length barrel.
6 posted on 05/25/2012 9:05:48 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: re_tail20
This thread has just added to the FreeRepublic "bang list" (firearms interest list) by adding the keyword "banglist".

Any time a firearms-related thread is created on FreeRepublic, please be sure to add the "banglist" keyword to it so that interested FReepers don't miss it. Just a suggestion.

Let Freedom Ring,

Gun Facts v6!

Click the pic to go to the Gun Facts v6 download page!

7 posted on 05/25/2012 9:08:14 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Lazamataz

The link has pictures.


8 posted on 05/25/2012 9:11:12 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: Lazamataz

The link has pictures.


9 posted on 05/25/2012 9:11:32 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: Lazamataz

The link has pictures.


10 posted on 05/25/2012 9:11:53 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: marktwain; Lazamataz; harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; ...

Friday fun thread.


11 posted on 05/25/2012 9:14:41 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Joe 6-pack
If they adopt a new rifle they might as well switch to the 6.8 SPC at he same time.
12 posted on 05/25/2012 9:16:09 AM PDT by MCF
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To: mcshot

“Wonder if Red Jacket is in the running with their “ultimate AR platform” or something like that.”

They are seriously considering Red Jacket Stephanie’s Ultimate Pink AR Platform for the new First Marine Rump Ranger Battalion now that GAY BE OK.


13 posted on 05/25/2012 9:17:53 AM PDT by 43north (BHO: 50% black, 50% white, 100% RED)
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To: Joe 6-pack

I’d like them to consider 6.5 or 6.8 as a minimum cartridge. I tend to favor more accruate, longer range, heavy hitting rounds. Would truely like them to go to the 7.62 Nato. If small size is needed, you can convert the M14 to a bullpup configuration.


14 posted on 05/25/2012 9:22:21 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: re_tail20

7.62


15 posted on 05/25/2012 9:27:36 AM PDT by TomasUSMC ( FIGHT LIKE WW2, FINISH LIKE WW2. FIGHT LIKE NAM, FINISH LIKE NAM)
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To: Joe 6-pack
I left this thread for a minute and was thinking the same thing you posted.

I can't imagine the US Army material procurement people accepting a bullpup design, but the features of the Steyr AUG need to be looked at, even though it has it's own shortcomings. You're right in that the only way to get a full length barrel in a compact maneuverable package for CQB and rapid response to/from motor vehicle transport is to adopt the bullpup style. If they're going to go that far, then they might as well adopt Steyr's instant-change barrel feature as well.

I've seen AR15-breed rifles offering 'Quick change barrels', but all of these need time and tools to accomplish at the armory where the Steyr AUG can be changed immediately in the field from the standard 20" rifleman barrel to a shorty 14" commando barrel or to a 24" squad marksman barrel.

Downside of bullpup rifles is the trigger pull and length of pull off the non-adjustable clamshell-style stock not comfortably fitting soldiers of various sizes, though the last issue is distinctly an American military characteristic: The Austrians have Tyrolian mountain climbing soldiers who are all pretty much two meters tall and don't have to worry about how their AUG length of pull fits a 5'4" Latina soldier from New Mexico.

There have been a lot of folks who've never really examined the AUG that describe it as the ugliest rifle they've ever seen, but once you give a doubter the chance to use it themselves they're quickly convinced that Steyr-Mannlicher was at least a half century ahead of their time when they developed the StG77 'AUG' rifle.

16 posted on 05/25/2012 9:28:34 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: re_tail20

Dang it! If it don’t have a lever action and shoot pistol ammo it ain’t a carbine. (Shuffles off, muttering darkly...)


17 posted on 05/25/2012 9:31:54 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Joe Brower
Both models with the folding butt stocks get my vote...as long as they don't get in the way of spent cartridges being ejected.
You should still be able to fire the weapon with the butt stock folded...just in case.
18 posted on 05/25/2012 9:33:15 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: taxcontrol
"I’d like them to consider 6.5 or 6.8 as a minimum cartridge."

I agree. There are lots of choices out there that would fill the gap nicely, including even the old .280 British or for that matter, the .250 Savage, to say nothing of the whole host of newer rounds.

"If small size is needed, you can convert the M14 to a bullpup configuration."

Kel-Tec, of all people, makes a 7.62 bullpup called the RFD. From what I've read/heard/seen (never fired one) it had some bugs not uncommon in a new design but they've been working through them. It uses standard FAL mags and has a unique front ejection making it suitable for left and right handed shooters. It may not be the "right" weapons for our military, but it certainly presents a number of concepts worth exploring further.

19 posted on 05/25/2012 9:33:24 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe Brower

20 posted on 05/25/2012 9:39:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz (The so-called 'mainstream' media has gone from "biased" straight to "utterly surreal".)
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To: The KG9 Kid
"Downside of bullpup rifles is the trigger pull and length of pull..."

A long time ago, one of the most frequently cited objections was the shortened sight radius. Optical sights have made that a non-issue.

21 posted on 05/25/2012 9:41:59 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe Brower

Or off my FR page with lots of other good gun references, links etc .... free !

http://www.freerepublic.com/~squantos/index?U=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freerepublic.com%2Ffocus%2Ff-chat%2F2887945%2Fposts


22 posted on 05/25/2012 9:56:39 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Lazamataz

40 watt range?


23 posted on 05/25/2012 9:59:21 AM PDT by atomic_dog
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To: Squantos; Lazamataz
Well they're at it, they ought to upgrade their crew-served systems as well...


24 posted on 05/25/2012 10:02:31 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Lazamataz

“One shot, one incineration.”

Dang it, Laz, now I am going to have to fire up New Vegas...


25 posted on 05/25/2012 10:07:06 AM PDT by Molon Labbie (Prep. Now. Live Healthy, take your Shooting Iron daily.)
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To: Joe Brower

I have been using a Hk 416 for a year now an thousands rounds in training and quals etc ...... without a problem, and I have tried to reproduce all the problems I encountered during my military career with the M16 platform. All Black Hills Mk 262 is issued. DODIC is A053.

Gear and memorymatic handling skills as well as ergonomics of the Hk 416 is why I suggest keeping it as a basic issue.

My opinion.....


26 posted on 05/25/2012 10:07:38 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Joe 6-pack

ROTFLMAO !!


27 posted on 05/25/2012 10:09:44 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Joe Brower

I’d enjoy these threads a lot more if any of these were actually legally available to us peasants.


28 posted on 05/25/2012 10:48:24 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: Joe 6-pack

It’s a gun! And all this time I’ve been deleting those e-mails...


29 posted on 05/25/2012 10:52:30 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Lazamataz

S-w-e-e-t!


30 posted on 05/25/2012 10:56:21 AM PDT by carriage_hill (All liberals & most demoncraps think that life is just a sponge bath, with a happy ending.)
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To: Tijeras_Slim

I’ve always deleted those emails as well. I mean, who needs two?


31 posted on 05/25/2012 10:57:00 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: atomic_dog; Lazamataz
"40 watt range?"

First thing I was going to ask. $:-)

32 posted on 05/25/2012 10:57:52 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: re_tail20

We should shut down these idiotic small weapons projects. The DOD isn’t going to select any of the outcomes of whatever testing they use.

Colt already has the contracts wired and the skids greased in Congress. Unless and until someone puts Colt out of business (and they deserve to be put out of business), we’re not moving away from the M16/M4 or the 5.56 NATO round.


33 posted on 05/25/2012 11:19:50 AM PDT by NVDave
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To: Joe Brower
I've fired the ACR. It's junk IMO. Switch it to .300 Blackout and let it run as a special purpose urban combat platform.

For general combat, go to a SOCOM M1A. KISS never goes out of style.

34 posted on 05/25/2012 11:31:59 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Massachusetts
boys
big dick

It’s Bawney Fwank’s wonderland.


35 posted on 05/25/2012 11:37:01 AM PDT by hattend (Firearms and ammunition...the only growing industries under the Obama regime.)
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To: from occupied ga

I’m flabbergasted there has been no viable attempt to overturn 922(o).


36 posted on 05/25/2012 11:53:44 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (Cloud storage? Dropbox rocks! Sign up at http://db.tt/nQqWGd3 for 2GB free (and I get more too).)
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To: Lazamataz

37 posted on 05/25/2012 12:04:36 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (Cloud storage? Dropbox rocks! Sign up at http://db.tt/nQqWGd3 for 2GB free (and I get more too).)
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To: NVDave

“We should shut down these idiotic small weapons projects. The DOD isn’t going to select any of the outcomes of whatever testing they use.

Colt already has the contracts wired and the skids greased in Congress. Unless and until someone puts Colt out of business (and they deserve to be put out of business), we’re not moving away from the M16/M4 or the 5.56 NATO round.”

Just yesterday I read a report that Remington has received a contract to make new M4s.


38 posted on 05/25/2012 12:20:06 PM PDT by M1903A1 ("We shed all that is good and virtuous for that which is shoddy and sleazy... and call it progress")
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To: taxcontrol; JoeSixPack; MCF
I’d like them to consider 6.5 or 6.8 as a minimum cartridge.

Not gonna happen. They have 614.68 gazillion berillion gumillion rounds inventoried in 5.56. They also keep insisting that it is doing fine, reporting excellent accuracy at way-out there ranges, too.

Some fellows report that it isn't really lethal enough, being a now highly stabilized, light weight, 77 gr bullet. Sort of drills neat holes where you want them, but doesn't always put the bad guys away quick enough.

39 posted on 05/25/2012 1:07:28 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (So, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out if Obama is a Natural Born Citizen?)
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To: M1903A1

Not quite right, possibly.

Colt had to return the technical data rights on the M4 and no longer has a monopoly.

They recently had to hire a lobbyist for the first time, like the other companies.

The big hurdle isn’t Colt, but the M4 itself.

The Army has set a very high bar for the other rifles. Any rifle that wants to take the place of the M4 has to first outperform the improved M4 in testing. It then has to prove to the Army that its improved performance is economically worth it to replace all of the M4’s.

But it is possible for Remington, FN, and or Heckler and Koch to clear both these obstacles, deliver superior performance in both of these, and put the Army in a place where it can’t pull any bureaucratic tricks.


40 posted on 05/25/2012 1:07:28 PM PDT by re_tail20
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To: Joe 6-pack
Steyr-Mannlicher made it a non-issue when they introduced the AUG with an integrated optic back in 1977. Now all rifles have them, plus the forward grip that Steyr made a standard feature.

... and if the new chosen M4 replacement appears with an rapid change barrel where each barrel has it's own integrated gas piston, we'll know where that idea came from too.

41 posted on 05/25/2012 1:46:41 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: M1903A1

Well, slap my butt cheeks and call me Shirley!

It’s good to see that the Army has finally, *finally* decided to wake up and realize how badly Colt was screwing the Army and the taxpayer:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/04/army-carbine-remington-042212w/


42 posted on 05/25/2012 2:28:18 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: Kenny Bunk

I agree. With the tooling, supply channels, NATO compatibility, etc... we’re not moving away from the 5.56 anytime soon.

This all could have been prevented.... but decisions in the past led us here.

For example: The Garand was about to go into big-time production. A decision had to be made - whether we’d stick with the .30-06 (of which we had quite a bit laying about), or go with the outcome/findings of the Goat & Pig Boards and he desire of Garand himself, the .276 Pedersen. MacArthur went with the .30-06, based pretty much on only the ammo we had on hand.

If we’d been using an intermediate-power 6.5 to 7mm bullet of 150gr or less (like the .276), we probably would not have had the 5.56, nor the 7.62x51, which was a compromise to keep a .30 cal bullet in an slightly less powerful form for the full-auto M14. If we’d changed away from the .30-06 when we went semi-auto, we’d probably still be using something like the .276 today in full-auto weapons.


43 posted on 05/25/2012 2:43:25 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave
Preaching to the 6.5 MM choir here, Dave!

Been hunting with the 6.5 X 55 since I was a Boy Scout and bought a Swede Mauser for $39.95 mail order!* Still can hit the pie plate at 200.

* of course I have a fancy one now. Sweet shooter.

44 posted on 05/25/2012 3:20:20 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (So, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out if Obama is a Natural Born Citizen?)
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To: Kenny Bunk

In the next year, I plan on building two 7mm rifles: One in .284 (for which I’ll neck up 6.5x284 brass) and a 7mm WSM. I happened upon a short 1924 Yugo action on which someone had opened up the bolt face for .535 heads, so it seems like a natural fit.

I debated between the 6.5 and 7mm for a long time, as there are really good choices in both, with more established cartridges with more brass available in the 6.5’s. In the end, my preference for heavier bullets with higher Bc’s won out... there’s some new stuff out there in 7mm which is just spectacular... and for that, I’ll just put up with the brass issue and hoard all I can find and make it fit.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/barnes-match-burners/

http://www.hornady.com/store/7mm-.284-162-GR-BTHP-Match/

Look at the 7mm vs. the 6.5. I’m sure you could design a 6.5 to achieve the same, but you’d need to tighten the twist as the bullet should be getting pretty long.

So we’ve pretty much convinced everyone who doesn’t work for the government that there’s something to this 6.5 to 7mm obsession... but no matter. They’ll still be using 5.56 for quite some time to come, if for no other reason than to make the recoil acceptable to the women they’re going to let join the Rangers and other combat groups.


45 posted on 05/25/2012 3:49:12 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave

Check out the 260 Remington. It’s a commercial version of the 6.5/.308. Hot.


46 posted on 05/25/2012 4:01:22 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (So, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out if Obama is a Natural Born Citizen?)
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To: Lazamataz

Love the Steampunk look!


47 posted on 05/25/2012 4:05:30 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Kenny Bunk

I have, along with the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5x47 Lapua (which had been my 6.5 choice).

Nothing wrong with any of them - I just wanted “more” in the way of Bc.


48 posted on 05/25/2012 4:44:39 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: NVDave

Two ways to skin that Bc cat! Long and Light, or Long and Heavy!


49 posted on 05/25/2012 4:48:27 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (So, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Roberts can't figure out if Obama is a Natural Born Citizen?)
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To: NVDave

I would imagine a .264 160 grain bullet would have an excellent Bc. I don’t know the exact twist for the old Swedish Mausers but I am sure it was very fast to stabilize those long bullets.

My own guess is the .260 Remington would be a perfect base for a standard military infantry cartridge. It would be deadly, very good at long range and has enough capacity to allow some pretty hot loads.

The greatest elephant hunter of them all, Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell killed over 5000 elephants mostly using the little 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher (or was it 53mm long?) He also liked the heavy 160 grain bullets.


50 posted on 05/25/2012 7:05:28 PM PDT by yarddog
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