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We, Too, Are Violent Animals
Wall Street Journal ^ | January 4, 2013 | Jane Goodall

Posted on 01/05/2013 8:29:49 AM PST by Twotone

Where does human savagery come from? The animal behaviorist Marc Bekoff, writing in Psychology Today after last month's awful events in Newtown, Conn., echoed a common view: It can't possibly come from nature or evolution. Harsh aggression, he wrote, is "extremely rare" in nonhuman animals, while violence is merely an odd feature of our own species, produced by a few wicked people. If only we could "rewild our hearts," he concluded, we might harness our "inborn goodness and optimism" and thereby return to our "nice, kind, compassionate, empathic" original selves.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Pets/Animals; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: apes; godsgravesglyphs; violence

1 posted on 01/05/2013 8:29:54 AM PST by Twotone
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To: Twotone

Last I notice nature is very violent. Whence comes our violence and natures?

Sin, the turning from God in the Garden...

Whence comes our destruction as a nation?

Sin, the turning from God in Government.


2 posted on 01/05/2013 8:32:50 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Twotone

I’m guessing Marc Bekoff is either a vegetarian or a vegan, and doesn’t understand what primitive man did to get to the top of the food chain.


3 posted on 01/05/2013 8:33:21 AM PST by wastedyears (My life mostly completely turned around in a few weeks. Now to leave NY...)
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To: Twotone
Harsh aggression, he wrote, is "extremely rare" in nonhuman animals,

Marc is full of crap. I've had catz fight bad enough to require a trip to the vet.

Male lions kill the cubs that aren't theirs when they take over a pride.

I've watched squirrels kill each other.

I shared a pasture with 3 bulls for over a year, and one of them had to be sent to the butcher because of a broken leg sustained in a dominance battle with another bull.

Marc is full of crap.

Real life isn't like a Disney movie.

/johnny

4 posted on 01/05/2013 8:35:44 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Twotone
Cognitive Dissonance in the Animal Kingdom
5 posted on 01/05/2013 8:36:26 AM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: Twotone

[[we might harness our “inborn goodness and optimism”]]

In other words- ‘if only we coudl becoem our ‘true selves’ we wouldn’t need God or His morlaity because animals are by nature their own gods capable of complete morality’

Unbeleivable-


6 posted on 01/05/2013 8:49:06 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Twotone
This is the inherent flaw in the liberal-humanist worldview...

The foundation stones of their belief system tell them that humankind is basically good, peace-loving, naturally communal & cooperative....
--AND--
Man does not need redemption and transformation... etc.. etc...

The Word of God tells us that we are all born into an inherited sinful & selfish nature--
--AND--
Lacking redemption & transformation... we might drone along for a while --
.....Even most of our short lives.... but eventually---

Unbelief our inherent sinfulness will cause the forfeit of our blessings...

As well as passing into death outside of the Lord's great promise (in Christ) has eternal consequences

*********

An OT prophet brought the Lord's insight...
Jeremiah 17:5-10

Christ himself affirmed this truth as God's view of unredeemed mankind:
Matthew 15:19
Mark 7:20-23

7 posted on 01/05/2013 8:49:25 AM PST by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: Twotone
...and that is why we need firearms to protect ourselves from said animals.....

They see the 1 and the 1, but miss the plus sign every time.

8 posted on 01/05/2013 8:49:37 AM PST by deadrock
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To: Twotone
Harsh aggression, he wrote, is "extremely rare" in nonhuman animals,

Sure if you ignore the 15,000 odd wars that have taken place over the last 4000 years.
9 posted on 01/05/2013 8:51:36 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Twotone
Harsh aggression, he wrote, is "extremely rare" in nonhuman animals,

"The foreign policy of ants can be summed up as follows: restless aggression, territorial conquest, and genocidal annihilation of neighbouring colonies, wherever possible. If ants had nuclear weapons, they would probably end the world in a week." - Professor E.O. Wilson, myrmecologist

10 posted on 01/05/2013 8:57:53 AM PST by qam1 (There's been a huge party. All plates and the bottles are empty, all that's left is the bill to pay)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Chimpanzee ambush and warfare in the wild.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM


11 posted on 01/05/2013 9:02:36 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: American in Israel

[[Last I notice nature is very violent. Whence comes our violence and natures]]

Animal worshippers don’t concider animals killing for their meals to be ‘violent’- they excuse this obvfious violence as ‘impashioned necessity to feed’ whereas they woudl argue that huimans are passionate when committign violence- animal worshippers even excuse cats who play with hteir food as ‘learnign important survival techniques’ and wouldn’t deem it to be torture, but these same peopel are very quick to condemn humans who would do such things.

You simpyl can not reason with an animal worshipper- they are always right and in their minds they are the only truly ‘moral people’ around, and htey feel it’;s their duty to edumacate us ignant evil people who have strayed so far from our original nirvana where animals were all perfectly moral and holy-

If thsoe peopel wish to think they are lowly ignorant animals, let them- they will simply deceive themselves right into hell though unfortunately- all we can really do is pray that someday the scales might be lifted from their blinded eyes- I was created in God’s image- not in some lowly insignificant animal’s image- if those peopel are cotnent sleeping i nthe gutter with lowly animals- that’s theuir problem- they are truly insane and deceived people


12 posted on 01/05/2013 9:04:59 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Harsh aggression, he wrote, is "extremely rare" in nonhuman animals,

You are most correct. I've seen hawks kill rabbits all day long, despite not eating them. And why will a cat torture a rodent to death for fun?

I saw a documentary that showed natures capability for killing for very base reasons beyond eating. In the documentary, a pack of hyenas came across lion cubs and killed them. Upon returning and finding the dead cubs, the male lions (which don’t usually hunt) pursued the hyenas for several days, caught up with them, and killed them all.

13 posted on 01/05/2013 9:05:17 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Chimp packs actually go to war with each other, and not just on the west and south sides of Chicago.


14 posted on 01/05/2013 9:12:54 AM PST by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

[[Marc is full of crap. I’ve had catz fight bad enough to require a trip to the vet.

Male lions kill the cubs that aren’t theirs when they take over a pride.

I’ve watched squirrels kill each other.

I shared a pasture with 3 bulls for over a year, and one of them had to be sent to the butcher because of a broken leg sustained in a dominance battle with another bull.]]

Unfortunately you can not argue with people as ignorant as Marc- because they are always right and we are always wrong i ntheirm inds- no matter what yuo throw at them they always have some lame excuse to explain it away- peopel like marc woudl argue that these are all perfectly ligit actions and woudl probably even argue that it’s a moral imperative that these animals do those htigns you mentioend because after all, it’s ensuring that the most fit survive to pass along hte ‘superior genes’- these nutcases woudl even argue that the naimals make conscious moraL descisions to fight one another and that they sacrfice themselves in possible battles to the death just sop that the better fighter will have the chance to pass alogn hteir ‘superior genes’

Ylou’ll never win an argument with these insane people unfortyunately- Even peopel like ken miller claim that human morality is nothign more than a virus passed along via colds when peopel cough durign hte colds- that’s how lost to reality these sick peopel really are- They are desperately tryign to prove that only nature cousdl have provided ‘true morality’ while the universal moral code we ALL abide by in one form or antoher htroughout hte world is nothign but a virus that is deceivign innocent people- peopel like Ken and marc are truly sick people- They are desperate to try to prove there is no God, and that God is not respopnsible for the universal moral code that we all abide by seemingly ‘instinctively’


15 posted on 01/05/2013 9:13:27 AM PST by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Unbelievable, eh?

Anyone who spends a few minutes even watching wild animals will note how they are ALWAYS in a defensive posture, unless they are already fighting or flighting!

This Kumbaya stuff - not sure where it comes from. Maybe Disney. Maybe childrens books, where the princess takes the thorn out of the lions paw, and the lion is eternally grateful for one of the best lunches he ever had!

This jerk needs to be chained to a tree overnight in my backyard... possible cougars, definite coyotes, once in a while a brown bear...

First possum that wanders by and he’d dump a load way bigger than the scat piles I see...


16 posted on 01/05/2013 9:17:00 AM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: cripplecreek
The most disturbing part of that video was that I kept wanting to tell them to spread out, don't bunch up, while they were on the trail.

In a lot of ways, we're not so different from them.

/johnny

17 posted on 01/05/2013 9:18:00 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I saw a video a while back that showed what appeared to be an alpha male chimpanzee set up for slaughter by his own troupe.

They led him into an ambush and sat a short distance away as the aggressor troupe passed them up and all went directly for the alpha male and killed him. The victim’s troupe sat and watched quietly then faded off into the jungle when it was over.

If we had chimpanzees around here, I’d never go into the woods.


18 posted on 01/05/2013 9:27:33 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: djf
where the princess takes the thorn out of the lions paw, and the lion is eternally grateful for one of the best lunches he ever had!

You just ain't right. LOL!

/johnny

19 posted on 01/05/2013 9:38:59 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Twotone
Noted ethologist Konrad Lorenz wrote a definitive work on animal aggression, aptly titled On Aggression many years ago. It is not news that the animal kingdom is "nature, red in tooth and claw" as the poet had it.

One recurring annoyance with these dramatic news events is that self-appointed instant experts like this guy at Psychology Today crawl out of the woodwork to give spurious opinions to media people hungry for copy. Fortunately Jane Gooddall is still around to bring some sense to the matter.

20 posted on 01/05/2013 9:38:59 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Twotone

Remember the scene in War of the Worlds “We’ll make friends. We’ll wave a white flag. Everyone knows what that means!”
Cut to: dust in shape of three guys on ground.

Remember the leftie who wanted to make friends with the grizzly bears? Cut to: dead vegan.


21 posted on 01/05/2013 9:44:43 AM PST by Rytas
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To: wastedyears
I’m guessing Marc Bekoff is either a vegetarian or a vegan, and doesn’t understand what primitive man did to get to the top of the food chain.

I suspect you are right. He's a biologist, PETA type, who thinks we can learn to be more peaceful by imitating animals.

22 posted on 01/05/2013 9:52:19 AM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: Twotone
Cat gets caught entering prison with saws and cell phone
23 posted on 01/05/2013 9:54:30 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Twotone

do animals abort their own?

do animals choose to protest when game runs low?

do animals poop in the woods? Do philosophers and activists?

sometimes they step in each others..

is that mean or insulting of others.. or just life?


24 posted on 01/05/2013 10:19:01 AM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi)
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To: JRandomFreeper


Psst! George! F this grass stuff!
I think I smell a metrosexual!!

25 posted on 01/05/2013 10:46:46 AM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: djf
LOL!

/johnny

26 posted on 01/05/2013 11:06:20 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

One of my favorite bear pics. The one on the right is awesome!

But you can tell by the focus that whoever took that pic got one heck of a lot closer to them than I ever would!

Maybe it was that nature boy dude who got et alive by a Kodiak a few years back...


27 posted on 01/05/2013 11:11:28 AM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: Twotone

Evidently he has never watched the videos of Orcas playing with their food (baby seals!), or of Flipper raping Flippette.


28 posted on 01/05/2013 11:16:07 AM PST by left that other site (Worry is the Darkroom that Develops Negatives.)
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To: cripplecreek
Chimpanzee ambush and warfare in the wild.

My little dogs slept through the video but when the chimps started getting vocal my big ones went on full alert.

Looked like they wanted to whup some monkey butt!

29 posted on 01/05/2013 11:19:43 AM PST by Eaker (Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. — Robert A. Heinlein.)
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To: djf
Maybe it was that nature boy dude who got et alive by a Kodiak a few years back...

Nature has a way of correcting stupidity.

/johnny

30 posted on 01/05/2013 11:24:46 AM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Kitteh iz BUSTID!!


31 posted on 01/05/2013 11:25:22 AM PST by left that other site (Worry is the Darkroom that Develops Negatives.)
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To: Twotone

This person has been watching too many Disney movies. Don’t they know that tomcats will kill their kittens. I watched Shrikes (birds) kill baby ducks. Dogs will attack other dogs not to mention they will kill cats and children. Rutting bucks will fightanother buck till one or both are dead. sheessshhhhh!


32 posted on 01/05/2013 11:31:10 AM PST by Ditter
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To: cripplecreek

Was the Alpha chimp’s name “Uriah”, by any chance?


33 posted on 01/05/2013 12:31:37 PM PST by BwanaNdege ("To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"- Voltaire)
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To: BwanaNdege

Either way, I would guess he was neither a Hittite nor a hitter.

Most likely the hittee.


34 posted on 01/05/2013 12:33:20 PM PST by BwanaNdege ("To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"- Voltaire)
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To: Twotone
None of this is rocket science, really.

Homo sapiens are the dominant predator on a planet overrun with predators.

We have come far from our animal origins. We still have a very long way to go.

35 posted on 01/05/2013 1:30:33 PM PST by Joe Brower (The "American People" are no longer capable of self-governance.)
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To: Twotone; blam

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach

Thanks Twotone. Jane Goodall write:
Calm and cooperative behavior indeed predominates in most species, but the idea that human aggression is qualitatively different from that of every other species is wrong.
Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


36 posted on 01/05/2013 4:57:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Eight six seven, five three oh nine.)
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To: djf
First possum that wanders by and he’d dump a load way bigger than the scat piles I see...

Soon after I moved into my current house (in the suburbs, not the country), I was unpacking some boxes in the carport. I opened up one of them, and the face of a devil from hell snarled up at me.

I didn't "drop a load", but it was a near thing. I made a leap back that John Carter couldn't have made on Barsoom.

Finally, I grabbed a shovel and chased the possum away. It went, and it didn't come back. But it left with its dignity pretty much intact, while I had totally lost mine

37 posted on 01/05/2013 6:42:35 PM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: chesley

Lol!

We have tons of them around here, and usually, they are quite timid. But once in a while, they will cop an attitude.

I remember coming home one night after dark and one was in the road in front of me, just going round in circles.

I pulled up alongside it, opened my door, and yelled “Go away! or something, the little chit looks up at me and hisses, then runs back in front of my car and keeps going in circles!

I was ready to run him over just outa spite, but after about the third circle, he headed off the shoulder into the woods.

You might be able to keep them as pets, but I tend to think they are just too dam stupid...


38 posted on 01/05/2013 6:54:31 PM PST by djf (Conservative values help the poor. Liberal values help them STAY poor!!!)
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To: Twotone

I daresay that the libs are wrong- man is LESS cruel than others in the animal kingdom.


39 posted on 01/06/2013 1:03:19 AM PST by PghBaldy (12/14 - 930am -rampage begins... 12/15 - 1030am - Obama's advance team scouts photo-op locations.)
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To: SunkenCiv; Twotone
They myth of peaceful mankind in the state of nature pops up once more.


40 posted on 01/09/2013 2:56:38 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: Twotone
He apparently thinks Cro-Magnons came into existence sometime between the Old Tofu and Early Latte Age...


41 posted on 01/09/2013 3:13:40 PM PST by fattigermaster
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To: colorado tanker

LOL!


42 posted on 01/09/2013 5:12:35 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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