Skip to comments.There Really Is A Stigma Against The Long-Term Unemployed
Posted on 04/16/2013 7:05:13 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
There's a real stigma associated with people who have been out of work for more than six months or those who are prone to job hopping.
To find out how hiring managers view these candidates, economist Rand Ghayad conducted an experiment where he sent out 4,800 fictitious résumés for 600 job openings.
Ghayad found that managers would rather hire people with no relevant job experience than someone who's been unemployed for a long time or has had several jobs in a short period of time.
The resumes sent out described candidates looking work for different reasons across several industries, but all were all male, had racially ambiguous names and similar education backgrounds.
Below is a chart from the paper illustrating how little it matters if you have experience in the industry you're applying for because "the first thing employers look at is how long you've been out of work, and that's the only thing they look at if it's been six months or longer," writes Matthew O'Brien at The Atlantic.
(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...
How do you prove it?
Always easier to find a job, when you already have one.
RE: Its the same when trying to decide on buying a house, if everything looks good, but its been on the market for a long time, you will wonder why it hadnt been sold yet, so you figure, why take a chance?
I guess it has a lot to do with the state of the economy.
Why take a chance? Well if everybody else is buying and prices are going up, then you’d lose out.
Same principle applies to hiring.... the good folks are snapped up.
Butt hen that depends on one assumption -— THE ECONOMY IS PICKING UP.
It clearly hasn’t been for over 4 years.
well, here is the deal, yeah hire who want, but have an idea of the greater good, it is not just a scramble, you are trying to influence for the good by having a good company with integrity, every person you are in contact with is in contact with at least 6 others, if you hire just some operator who will stay with you for a year and then move on because he is a careerist ooh, so “cool” where does that get you, if you hire someone who is simply building their resume, or if you hire someone who will actually appreciate the job because they know how vicious things are. Also, ask if you pay extra would they be willing to buy their own health insurance because I have an idea that is why these older folks are getting passed on, but the older ones are the ones with experience, who actually know how things work, remember how to work and not just screw around on the computer to make it look like they are working. Just something to consider.
and the legit reason is............................
that it is their own fault
Pray tell us what business you owned or ran
Again, I’ve told you people, quit bringing logic and common sense to this pity party. And now you’ve gone and added VALID ANALOGY! HOW DARE YOU. What, are you trying to actually shed some light?
It’s relative....let’s say I’ve got two potential candidates:
Candidate A: Out of work for only two weeks.
Candidate B: Out of work for six months.
Candidate B’s resume looks marginally better than candidate A’s.
Who do you hire, everything else being the same...both interviewed about the same, etc.
Not that it’s any of your business...but I’ve owned and run several, still to do a degree, but the main one regarding hiring, firing, etc was a contracting company in the SE US for about 22 years. Had as many as 150 employees at max, maybe just a little under that - as well as sub contractors and vendors.
and what pray tell is this mysterious “law of large numbers” you keep referring to? Is that anything like the 50 mile rule? That someone who has to move more than 50 miles for a job is better than the one right across the lane? Those are just words to say to make it sound like you know what you are talking about
It’s not so much fault as it is clues....someone who managed to find something productive to do for six months in a given area is likely to be more productive than someone who, in the same six months, in the same geographic area, did not. If your job depends on finding the best applicant, human nature dictates you hire candidate A. It might be a mistake, candidate B might be a super hero just needing an opportunity....but this is like the NFL draft - you have to find little things to separate them out, knowing you will make some mistakes.
You wouldn’t understand anyway.
It’s tough dealing with low vocabularies....but consider the more simple terms “in general” or “typically” instead of law of large numbers, if that helps you keep up to speed. GENERALLY someone who stayed busy is more productive than someone who did not. TYPICALLY a go getter will figure out something to do in his spare time while others may not.
All of these play into a universe where there are rules, and exceptions, but the AVERAGE, or the TYPICAL, or the GENERAL THEME will be shown, and can be shown, in any survey of large numbers.
To apply a generality is often wise, and NEVER personal. You have chosen to perosnalize it, and you will never rectify the two.
At that point, not finding good job opportunities, I went out on my own. I did okay, at least paying my bills, until the crash after the dot com bubble and 9/11.
I went to work for Home Depot for over a year until another project came along, and then worked again on my own until the spring of 2008, when I was offered a full time job in my field. I did that AND ran my own projects for almost two years.
Then came THE crash and by August 2009 my employer called it quits. I took unemployment for a year while I searched for a job. I couldn't find one, but won a one year contract for the State of California.
Then I really screwed up. I was naive, weak, and too willing to go along. I got abused. I gave an unplanned two for one sale. It took two years, and nearly killed me. I went months without pay, sleep, or sanity. But I got the job done and now it's past me.
I had another big project lined up, but the funding agency requires a performance bond that I can't obtain and a $400,000 job slips through my fingers.
So now it's summer 2012. I have no choice but to take a low paying job in an unrelated field. I apply for all the jobs I see, and do freelance work when it comes up. I can barely make ends meet. My credit's shot. I owe back taxes.
My resume says I've been freelancing (or self employed) since 2009. Do I change that? Should I list a completely non related job instead? I have applied for dozens of jobs in my field, including out of state. I have had two interviews, both for freelance work, and got no work from those.
Am I too old? Too much experience? Not diverse enough? Not up on the exact software they want? Are the ads a formality and they already know the hire?
I do not ask to make a point. I want advice. I don't have the cash to live on while building up a business, nor the time now to do work if it came up without jeopardizing what employment I have. I really need a decent paying job to live like a modest life, save some money again, and plan the last two decades of my working life.
Actually, you are exactly the kind of person I would want to hire, were your resume come across my desk. You are not what I would call chronically unemployed at all. You never sat still.
Now, I know nothing about your area of the country or your field....but I would advise finding some kind of partner who is bondable so you can snag the next 400 K type opportunity that comes along.
Yep. That why I worked for two high tech start-ups, we never got funded, I never got paid, I've done repair and resale of mobile homes, cleaned storm drains, shoveled alpaca poop, moved rocks, direct marketing, and done my best to keep my engineering skills close to current on line and via meetings, seminars and trade publications.
I'm 60 and near dead broke, spending a few years and a hundred thousand dollars to go back to school doesn't make sense, unless I'm missing some wisdom you could impart, naps?
Maybe I could be a TSA groper or an ObamaCare Navigator...
oh yeah, I guess you don’t know what you mean then, it’s just a phrase to roll off the keyboard lol
naps has some fancy government job pulling down the big bucks on the east coast, you and I pay his salary, it is next to impossible for him to be canned, so he can pretend to be all safe and secure, but you know what? God can change all that in an instant and pride goeth before a fall
I don’t know where your venom is coming from. Your experience is not at all reflective of the long term unemployed. And crooks are crooks in any industry, but to assume legit biz has an agenda because you’ve run into non legit businesses is needless and adds nothing to the discussion. Crooks are crooks period.
what a bunch of gobbldegook
“There are folks in this thread who insist that you are laid off BECAUSE you DESERVE to be and that accounts for MOST OF THE REASONS. “
Being an engineer at both the local and corporate level I was accustomed to a requirement to bring to the table 10 times my salary in savings, speed or quality improvements and always exceeded that requirement so it would have been in a company’s best interest to hire me.
However, the central planners have created such a hostile business environment that hiring an additional person is the last thing a business wants to do and they will do everything possible internally to avoid the extra head count.
I'm working on it.
Now this is interesting. I've rarely agreed with Naps on much of anything, and I think he is living in la la land to think that Santorum is particularly competent or will ever sell on the open market to anything but a niche of voters. I also think he misses a lot about the free market due to his job. However, he said nothing on this thread that was not totally reasonable. And I found no pride in what he said either.
I think everyone here agrees that the central planners have screwed up the job market for everyone....but in a tough environment, businesses are more careful than ever to hire the right person. They make mistakes, because everybody does, but because of central planners, mere survival is the only agenda.
There shouldn't be a stigma against someone who was previously employed being unemployed for 6 months during an economic downturn.
The job hopper on the other hand? Yeah, I'd be concerned about that.
actually, post 64 is anything but. If it's over your head, I'm sorry, but others might have the patience to "splain" it to you.
This is true in good times and in bad times. BI, a liberal rag, acts like this is something new. It's not.
RE: The job hopper on the other hand? Yeah, I’d be concerned about that.
How about a person who works on contract from one job to another?
In the software development business, one often does not work for a company... one works for a recruiting/contracting firm who contracts you out for projects 6 to 9 months at a time...
So I should just give up?
I don't think so. I've never collected a dime of public assistance and I'm damned well not going to start now.
Several resumes out already this week, Job Fair tomorrow. should I cancel? After all, the human nature you cite says I'm doomed.
It’s a silly study the way it is set up.
A better study would be long-term unemployed who have attempted to fill the resume gap with constructive things versus those that didn’t. (Started a business, part-time job, volunteering, education, certifications.) Is the long term unemployment the problem, or the gap in the resume?
Also, if two similar people are laid off at the same time, what did the short term unemployed one do different than the long term unemployed one?
She has a degree in Business Marketing and has been working in the SEO and Digital Marketing field. She has told all her unemployed friends and cousins to enhance their LinkedIn page, get endorsements from colleagues and put all your experience online because the HR departments are looking at resumes on line at LinkedIn.
They offered her $10,000 more a year, $80,000 + major benes, to get her from their competitor.
I would say that it’s time for him to consider moving to where the jobs are.
Good advice about LinkedIn.
My heart goes out to you...that’s a tough situation. I’d be curious to hear what other people say who have worked in hiring.
Is it possible for you to relocate from CA, if you’re just doing freelance and part-time work anyway? Maybe move to a state with a much lower cost of living, so that the money you do make goes much farther?
Also, do you have stuff you can sell on ebay? If so, you can use your current assets to get you liquidity and an immediate cash infusion, which you can then use to buy other merchandise and sell it online. It doesn’t take that much time either.
Are you asking me for advice? If you are a trained engineer, it would seem to me that you might have more valuable skills and knowledge than I do....(I’m a Poli Sci major!). Without knowing the details of your situation, it’s a little difficult to offer constructve advice. Do you have a college degree? Where do you live? In a big metropolitan area or a rural area or small town? You might have to move to find a job. You mentioned you are 60. But many people who are 60 keep in good shape these days and look like they could be 40 or 45. My mom is in her 70s, looks like like she is in her 50s. She works at a hospital and has no desire of retiring anytime soon. In fact, her superiors at the hospital have found that she is much more reliable than many of the twentysomethings who work there. I think retirement is an over-rated concept for some including myself. I have colleagues I work with who are in their 80s. I have no great interest in golf or daytime TV. I want to work as long as I can.
“.but in a tough environment, businesses are more careful than ever to hire the right person. They make mistakes, because everybody does, but because of central planners, mere survival is the only agenda.”
How many CEOs can directly point to a tend fold + contribution to the bottom line?
The last company I worked for, went bankrupt paid their CEO $6 Million in bonuses during the final 3 years when the company was hemorrhaging money and had not had a single profitably year since he took office (After his father died. get the picture?). Even with their dire financial picture, I exceeded my 10X requirement.
You are trying to apply to yourself a category that does not apply. Your situation is not at all the one cited in this study. The human nature test works in your favor, because you’ve been anything but idle. This stigma is talking about those who don’t try, or give up, not those who try and hit bad luck.
I’ve even crafted resumes specific to a given job, to emphasize relevant skills and experience that exactly match the advertised position and been blown off sight unseen.
The simple truths are:
Just because they are advertizing does not mean they are actually hiring, sometimes it simply means that are trying to look like they are hiring and growing to entice investors.
Just because they are advertizing does not mean they have not already selected a cheap H1-B to fill that job, and are just going through the motions to prove they couldn’t find an American with the exact skill set the H1-B has, one year’s more or one year’s less of experience in any of the half dozen given skills and you are over or under qualified.
Just because they are advertizing does not mean the hiring manager will actually get the budget he or she was promised when they submitted the req.
There are several issues here, and you seem to be conflating them. Are many HR department vermin too insecure or incompetent to recognize real talent? Very often so. Is there an age discrimmination thing going on? No doubt, at least to a degree. Those are totally separate from the arguement about whether chronic unemployment versus hustling for part time jobs, etc, is a valid measurement of future productivity.
In an earlier post, you said you had handled your retirement with good planning, and I hope for your sake that is the case. You sound like a guy who has the skills to dabble with your own venture of some kind while in your retirement, or semi retirement. Yes, it is criminal that our government has made options tough for a guy with your track record. I am having to re-invent myself as well - post 50 - and you can darned sure guarantee that there will be no time frames of inactivity.
I wouldn't call a contractor/consultant a job hopper. While they do work various assignments for various companies, they may actually work for the same company over a long period of time, i.e. Accenture (or for their own company if freelancing).
To me, a job hopper is someone who is hired by a company (not contracted, but hired) who leaves shortly thereafter for whatever reason, and then does it all over again. . .and again. . .and again.
My brother in law comes to mind. Always quitting jobs because someone did something to tick him off.
Wouldn’t I have to get a job out of state before moving there? I’ve applied for jobs in Pittsburgh, Atlanta, New Jersey, Minnesota, and other places. Not a sniff of an interview.
I’m not working a part time job. I work six days a week, 42- 48 hours per week. I’m not getting much freelance work. As I said, it would be a struggle to get it done with my schedule and they always want it yesterday.
The reality is Id be a damn good worker. Four years of retirement has made me ready to go back and work for 10-15 years...but will anyone even look at me?
Short answer? Yes. Despite all the goings on and shenanigans in the government and business world it is still possible to get hired. (Says the guy who has been looking for years!)
You have 25 years with a single employer, one who is noted for discipline and loyalty, one who is world renowned for its ability to get 'er done even when literally being shot at, with ability to make do and improvise even under the harshest conditions.
Some employers even preferentially hire ex-mil.
Besides, when you're done with school, we'll be done with Obama...
Go for it!
RE: Besides, when you’re done with school, we’ll be done with Obama...
Can’t help but be pessimistic... but our demographics are slowly changing. There’s no guarantee that after Obama, someone like say ( heavens forbid ) Hillary won’t be waiting in the wings...
(Is it really paranoia when they actually are out to get you? *looks nervously over shoulder*)...
Damn! You’re me! (Except 5 years younger and maybe 400 miles further south)
Passing over the best candidate for the job, to select the person longest out of work, does not show integrity for the job I was hired to complete.
if you hire just some operator who will stay with you for a year and then move on because he is a careerist ooh, so cool where does that get you, if you hire someone who is simply building their resume, or if you hire someone who will actually appreciate the job because they know how vicious things are.
Not relative to the point we were discussing.
Also, ask if you pay extra would they be willing to buy their own health insurance because I have an idea that is why these older folks are getting passed on,
, but the older ones are the ones with experience, who actually know how things work, remember how to work and not just screw around on the computer to make it look like they are working.
That is why we pay more for experienced people in our business. But some people gain 20 years of knowledge, some other people gain the 1st year of knowledge 20 times over. The difficulty can be discerning the difference in an interview; that can make reference far more important. One comment I keep getting from my boss lately is I sure take a lot of time talking to the candidates. I think he means it as a request to hurry up; I take it as a complement and a goal to keep hearing that.
“You sound like a guy who has the skills to dabble with your own venture of some kind while in your retirement, or semi retirement. “
There is a huge plus working for oneself but you have to be driven, disciplined and, in my case, tolerate travel. Nah!
Had my expertise been in a field where travel was not required (90%), I might still have my toe in the water.
Owning your own business is a risk but a risk with a potential for great rewards and I would highly recommend it to someone who has been pushed aside by the current business climate.
Hillary will seem like a breath of fresh air after Obama....and they’ll make sure the public believes it, though it doesn’t take much for the public to swallow whatever pill they’re given.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.