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SAPD: Man Tasered while attempting to save infant son from a house fire
KENS 5 ^ | June 2, 2013 | Kens5.com Staff

Posted on 06/04/2013 8:43:47 PM PDT by Altariel

SAN ANTONIO -- A father was tazed by San Antonio police while trying to save his infant boy from a house fire.

The incident occurred at around 2:30 a.m. Sunday during a house fire in the 100 block of Morningview Drive.

Investigators said the parents of the eight-month-old boy had dropped off their children at their grandparents' house. Somehow, a fire got started inside the home shortly thereafter.

The grandparents managed to grab one boy and rush to safety. That's when they realized one boy was still trapped inside.

Emergency crews and the children's parents arrived on the scene at around that time.

The boy's father tried several times to enter the burning home, but police held him back and ended up tazing him. SAPD said it was for his own safety.

The infant died from injuries sustained during the blaze.

Arson is under investigation. Police said the stories just don't add up.

No criminal charges have been filed.

The family is now looking for a new place to stay.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: donttasemebro; fire; housefire; sanantonio; taser; texas
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To: elteemike

I don’t think there’s a good father in all the world who wouldn’t *try* to rescue his child under any such circumstances.

It’s part and parcel of doing everything in your power for your kid—leaping into danger, even if it means Junior survives and you don’t.


51 posted on 06/04/2013 11:18:24 PM PDT by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: JCBreckenridge

Just figured out who you are...

Make sure you wear your seat belt, your helmet, your gloves, wrap it before ya tap it, sunscreen on the beach, no 60oz Sodas, no Salt, “stay away from second hand smoke” these are the Rules.

In my World it’s your genes that dead end (I hope you hear babies scream in your sleep until you figure out your RULES are SHIT) I will match my Firefighting History to yours ANY DAY, ya moron.

If you are a Public Educated Brainwashed Child, I apologize for treating you like an adult. That is the way the world really works. Forgive me, but never forget me.

TT


52 posted on 06/04/2013 11:18:43 PM PDT by TexasTransplant (Idiocracy used to just be a Movie... Live every day as your last...one day you will be right)
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Or was it Rescue Squad 52?


53 posted on 06/04/2013 11:19:01 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Jeff Head

This is beyond sad.
I’ve always been of the mindset that I would rather die trying to save my child than live knowing I probably would have died too but didn’t try.
I hope he sues their ass.


54 posted on 06/04/2013 11:29:22 PM PDT by Clump ( the tree of liberty is withering like a stricken fig tree)
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To: JCBreckenridge

***** “I’d taze you twice on sundays if that’s what it took to keep you from going back in. Guess what, your hurt feelings mean diddly squat.”*****

There ya go again worrying about feelings ... Clown if you ever tazed me for any reason ... even with permission from the EX Wife (She Runs the Universe, you must be like Vice Exalted Ruler of the Universe) You are such a tool, with your RULES that I am sure that the Collective will eventually run out of functioning Idiots and send you in, I will feel no different dispatching you than the thousands that came before you.

Like I said if you tazed me, or someone like me, worrying about what I think of your IGNORANT ass is on about page 60 of what you should be worrying about.

TT


55 posted on 06/04/2013 11:34:15 PM PDT by TexasTransplant (Idiocracy used to just be a Movie... Live every day as your last...one day you will be right)
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To: dragnet2

20 year old, Hard riding Harley biker - that’s all from the poster. Not me. I never mentioned any of it - he did.

Very brave and very stupid. But lucky which is why he’s here today to talk about what he did. Others like him, not so lucky.


56 posted on 06/04/2013 11:36:11 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge

So this could have all been prevented if only they had drilled that eight month old in fire safety? Are you really making that claim?


57 posted on 06/04/2013 11:51:19 PM PDT by APFel (Regnum Nostrum Crescit)
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To: TexasTransplant

“Make sure you wear your seat belt, your helmet, your gloves, wrap it before ya tap it, sunscreen on the beach, no 60oz Sodas, no Salt, “stay away from second hand smoke” these are the Rules.”

Yeah I wear my seatbelt. Nobody rides with me unless they buckle up. Do I think people should be forced to wear em? Nope. I think that if people want to get street cred by not wearing their seat belt and ‘looking cool’ they should be allowed to do so. They should also inform their insurance providers so they pay the appropriate coverage so that when they get injured because they were ‘looking cool’, we all don’t end up paying for them.

Like I said, rules are rules for a reason. People should get the opportunity to break em and learn the hard way.

Helmet? For what, riding a bike? Yeah, wore one. Saw what happened to a dude in the hospital who didn’t. Was a simple thing. Hey, it ain’t gonna save you if you clip something at full speed, you’re still gonna be road pizza, but it’s my head. Heads are kinda important things.

“wrap it before ya tap it”.

Yeah, I’m kinda old school about that. This whole thing about waiting till yer married thing. Works ok for me. I don’t have 17 baby mamas.

Ever work out in the bush? I bet your idea of ‘sun’ is twice a year at the beach so you can brag about your street cred. Yeah, I used to work 4 months of the year way away from civilization.

Don’t smoke myself, too expensive. Do I really want to be dropping a mortgage payment every month just because I like to look like Steve McQueen? Do I care about second hand smoke? Nope, not really.

“In my World it’s your genes that dead end”

Funny that. You support contraception so you’re voluntarily making yourself a dead end. :)

“I will match my Firefighting History to yours ANY DAY, ya moron.”

Haven’t saved anyone’s life yet. I think there’s more to being cool than taking stupid, unnecessary risks.

“If you are a Public Educated Brainwashed Child, I apologize for treating you like an adult. That is the way the world really works. Forgive me, but never forget me.”

Yeah, I’ve seen your kind before. The kind that brags about their time on a harley because you know, ‘harleys are cool’. Street cred is just that street cred.

I don’t have a problem with letting folks live and let live. They want to do the tiny things that tell people that they are outrageously cool like not wearing a seatbelt, then go ahead, and do them.

I’m happy to look totally uncool. Don’t really care much bout that.


58 posted on 06/04/2013 11:54:31 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge; TexasTransplant

TexasTransplant didn’t say anything about a Harley. Pay attention.


59 posted on 06/05/2013 12:00:35 AM PDT by APFel (Regnum Nostrum Crescit)
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To: APFel

Full disclosure, I have a disability that makes fires especially dangerous.

I nearly lost my gf due to a fire that happened when I was away for work. I have to be especially cautious about a fire, because unlike most people, I cannot hear a fire alarm.

When I was there - we had a system set up so that I would likely hear the warning. The problem is - even with the best system - my safety margin in terms of time is drastically reduced.

I am deaf. I am reliant upon someone else knocking on my door to warn me of a fire, which makes me exceptionally vulnerable when I live alone in my own place should a fire start, because I would not hear an alarm.

Basically, the standard stuff does not work for me. Fire Alarm, useless. The numbers are very bad for deaf people in fires, even with the ‘best technology out there’, because we are delayed something like 10 minutes - which is not enough time to get out in a fire.

So - taking all this into accout, my claim is that you need to have a plan. When I have kids, I am going to have to have a plan, because I cannot count on having the usual safety margin to get out to make sure that my kids would get out.

When they are too young, I am going to have to practice checking them to make sure they are out with me. When they are older, we will practice to make sure they get out before me.

If they hear and I do not, I do not want them relying on my bad hearing to get out. I want them relying on themselves when they are old enough.

Why did this fellow not remember about his kid? Because in the heat of the moment, you just do. You don’t have time to think about things. This is why you drill. You drill so you don’t even have to think, you just do. Check in. Grab kiddo 1, grab kiddo 2. Get it so that before you leave the house, that you feel ‘something is wrong’, when you have only one kid.


60 posted on 06/05/2013 12:06:35 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Jeff Head
I have to agree. What they have done is condemned a man to 30+ years of anger, loss, and bitter doubts. If the man had attempted the rescue, become injured and turned back he may have been able to live with the knowledge that he DID everything humanly possible. Even burn scars would be something he could live with. But what if... he could have saved his child. He will wonder that every day of his life. There are some things worth dying for.
61 posted on 06/05/2013 12:10:28 AM PDT by Casie (democrats destroy)
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To: APFel

nope but dragnet2 did:

“That lady might have never made it out, if I had not ran in and grabbed her. I just happened by on my Harley at 20 years old,....So stop with your first responder BS script”

I’m sorry it’s uncool to follow rules, but I guess that’s why we are all conservatives because following rules are bad.


62 posted on 06/05/2013 12:13:17 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge

**** “I will match my Firefighting History to yours ANY DAY, ya moron.”****

Challenge still stands... and your “RULES” are still complete BS.

TT


63 posted on 06/05/2013 12:43:13 AM PDT by TexasTransplant (Idiocracy used to just be a Movie... Live every day as your last...one day you will be right)
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To: Altariel

As a father, the man had every right to attempt to save his son. The cop us guilty of murder and needs to face justice.


64 posted on 06/05/2013 4:16:54 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Jonty30
First rule of first aid, don’t create a second person needing rescue
Sounds like a cop-out rule created by gutless, self-centered wussies. It sounds like a rule easily abused by cowards to conceal their uselessness.

It was the father's decision and it was his life on the line. All the cowardly "rescuers" needed to say was, "we're too pathetic and scared to risk our own hides saving you too, so if you go in there, you're on your own." After saying that, all they needed to do was move their useless, unionized, vomit-inducing cowardice out of the father's way and let him do the "hard work" that they themselves couldn't dig deep enough to find the sense of duty and honor to perform.

Maybe they could have loaned him some bunker gear and kept water on him as much as they could. But no, they tasered him -- I would surmise partly due to the fear that he would succeed while they only stood around and watched, making them look bad as much as "saving him from himself". "Saving him from himself" is their cover now. They will tote that lie to their graves.

Every last one of those "rescuers" should have "coward" engraved on their tombstone when they are thankfully gone.

Rescuers used to be made of much sterner stuff.

Apologies to all if I'm a bit too blunt, but this just has me torqued off.

Opinions may vary.

65 posted on 06/05/2013 5:12:58 AM PDT by jaydee770
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To: Altariel

After following this all the way through the many emotional comments it comes down to two simple yet devastating truths. First, the father, for the rest of his life, is being forced to live with the FACT that he will NEVER know if he COULD have saved his son’s life. Secondly, the knuckle dragging badge monkey who tasered the father will live the rest of his miserable life knowing FOR A FACT that he ALONE sentenced an infant to death!! Have a good life Officer !!!!!!


66 posted on 06/05/2013 5:45:49 AM PDT by OHPatriot (I WILL NOT COMPLY !!!!!)
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To: piytar

That said, they should have let him try. Rock...hard place. If they let him, they would get sued by surviving family members. No possible win here.


67 posted on 06/05/2013 5:51:23 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: Safetgiver

I would consider a living infant a “possible win”. Your mileage may vary.


68 posted on 06/05/2013 6:04:40 AM PDT by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: OHPatriot

Yep, “We did everything possible to save the child” is one thing.

“We prevented the boy’s father from saving his son” is a whole other proposition to live with.


69 posted on 06/05/2013 6:17:45 AM PDT by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: JCBreckenridge
Haven’t saved anyone’s life yet. I think there’s more to being cool than taking stupid, unnecessary risks

Then if you lack the spine to take the heat, it's probably best you stick to a safer job like digging stumps or shining a chair with your butt.

If that father decided to risk his life to attempt to save his child while the rest of you "safety first" rescuers were standing around examining their navels and hiding behind inflexible rules, policy & procedure, then all you need do is tell the father he's crazy to go in there and your cowardly butt will NOT come in after him. Then get your useless, gutless, pathetic carcass out of the way and be respectful while the father tries his damndest, whether futile or not.

If you lacked the spine and sense of selfless duty to go in after the child, you've already proven your cowardice and uselessness. You can't be branded a bigger coward by refusing to go in after the father as well. Your position can't get any worse.

All you weasling rule-mongers need do is just get out of the way! Let a father with purpose, honor and selflessness do the hard work you won't do. Just dig down deep and show a bit of respect and take whatever pathetic comfort you can while you hide your true colors behind your rules.

You can keep yapping trying to dig yourself out of the pit of shame, but you aren't fooling anyone. You argue that because *you* wouldn't go in after the child, no-one else should be allowed to either. From what I've read of your position, you merely seek to drag anyone who would dare down to your level of "quit" and "cowardice".

70 posted on 06/05/2013 6:18:59 AM PDT by jaydee770
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To: JCBreckenridge
I would have tazed the guy myself. Don’t care how he thought of me afterwards.

And had you prevented me from attempting to save my son, no matter how long the odds, I would hunt you down afterwards. That is not your decision to make. And if I were on the jury if the father kills the idiot that tazed him, I would acquit the father on day one or hang the jury.

71 posted on 06/05/2013 6:20:35 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: tnlibertarian

My Mother was in a similar situation. On her way to work one morning she was going by my cousin ‘s house and saw smoke. She stopped and found my cousin, who was in a wheel chair with TWO of her children. My cousin begged my Mother to go into the house to get her young son. My Mother was afraid and couldn’t do it. The firemen found his young body next to a window, the window right next to the garage. My Mother had a complete breakdown and suffered for many years before eventually taking her own life.


72 posted on 06/05/2013 6:35:26 AM PDT by heylady (“Sometimes I wish I could be a Democrat and then I remember I have a soul.”( Deb))
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To: Jeff Head

I agree with you. Cops are abusing the use of tasers like they are abusing a lot of unconstitutional power these days. Tasing a man is punishment and that father did nothing to deserve punishment. They just cruely abused and added to the trauma of a family in crisis.


73 posted on 06/05/2013 7:01:09 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: JCBreckenridge

Exactly.

It’s a good thing they punished this schoolboy from saving the life of another kid too.

We can’t have heroes running around in defiance of The Agents of the State’s expectations that mundanes act like sheep.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3027547/posts

(Do I really need a sarc tag?)


74 posted on 06/05/2013 7:03:51 AM PDT by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: Waryone

>> “Truly ironic considering the ending of Star Trek II.”
>
> I thought it was a bit strange myself. But maybe the person posting this only saw the JJ Abrams version, not the real, original Wrath of Khan.

Something came up the other day in a thread about the acting abilities of the old Trek actors vs. new actors — and someone mentioned that they were [re]watching Babylon 5, and that he noticed how Bester (Walter Koenig) was acting circles around all the others... and posited that is the reason that the reason why “Into Darkness” is so much worse compared to “Wrath of Khan”.


75 posted on 06/05/2013 7:10:29 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: tnlibertarian

“That is not your decision to make.”

Yeah, it is my decision to make to try to keep someone from running into a burning building. It’s my job and my duty to try just as much as you believe it is your duty to try to save your son.

Do you not understand this? I can no more let you go and die than you can go and let your son die. I understand it’s hard, but I have a duty to you and your life.

If I let you in and you die I would be negligent for failing to do my job. And they would be right because I let you go into a burning building and I would be responsible for your death because I did not stop you.


76 posted on 06/05/2013 7:14:15 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Rusty0604

bingo!


77 posted on 06/05/2013 7:14:31 AM PDT by Rusty0604
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To: Ronaldus Magnus

Lethal force indeed!


78 posted on 06/05/2013 7:23:51 AM PDT by Bshaw (,A nefarious deceit is upon us all!)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Tasers were not designed for compliance. They were designed as an alternative to deadly force alone. To say you would tase him is to say without the taser you would shoot him dead.


79 posted on 06/05/2013 7:24:38 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: jaydee770

“Then if you lack the spine to take the heat”

Nonsense. I’m perfectly willing to stand and take the heat for this decision. What I am not willing to do is throw someone’s life away in the hopes of saving another person when we already have them safe and sound.

What you are angry about is that I don’t see eye to eye with you which is why you’re attacking my character. That’s ok. I don’t think you’re a bad person at all. It’s a hard case. I am just saying what I would do if I were the cop and I had a father who was safe and was out of the fire. Would I do my damndest to keep him from charging back in? Absolutely. Why? Because I believe that his life is important and that I have a responsibility to him to keep him safe.

“If that father decided to risk his life to attempt to save his child while the rest of you “safety first” rescuers were standing around examining their navels and hiding behind inflexible rules, policy & procedure”

One, this isn’t true. You’re making a boatload of assumptions here - the job of the rescuers is to do what they can with what they have. How do you know what the fire was like? What evidence do you have that they did nothing? how do you know they didn’t show up and realize that the fire and the building was too far gone to have a hope in hell of saving anyone in it?

You don’t. You have the testimony of the angry father who is upset with the whole situation - but we do not have the pertinent facts.

Jumping on and attacking the cops for saving this man’s life is simply par for the course. What would you say if this man did rush in, and die in the fire? Would you blame the rescuers?

“all you need do is tell the father he’s crazy to go in there and your cowardly butt will NOT come in after him.”

It’s easy enough to let him die in the fire. Just let him go and do nothing. That’s not what this cop did. This cop did what he had to do to save this man’s life.

“Then get your useless, gutless, pathetic carcass out of the way and be respectful while the father tries his damndest, whether futile or not.”

Again, I would have an obligation to protect that man from committing suicide by rushing into a burning building.

“If you lacked the spine and sense of selfless duty to go in after the child”

How do you know what the building was like at the time? Were you there? What evidence do you have that there was a chance for the child to be saved? The father would have gone in anyways even if there was no chance at all because he sees it as his duty to try.

I understand that, but it would be my duty to try to save his life, rather than sitting there like a coward and doing nothing.

“You can’t be branded a bigger coward by refusing to go in after the father as well.”

Right. I’m the coward by preventing the father from getting into a building that is on fire, and from risking his life.

“Let a father with purpose, honor and selflessness do the hard work you won’t do.”

Honor has a purpose. Letting someone die in order to fulfill his honor to his son is senseless. I have a duty as well, and that is to keep the man who is safe out of the damn building. He would have killed himself rather than sit. I understand that but that’s precisely why I have to step in and keep him on this side of the line.

“You argue that because *you* wouldn’t go in after the child, no-one else should be allowed to either.”

“your level of “quit” and “cowardice”.”

Right, it’s cowardice because the rescuers failed to get to his son in time. I’m sorry, but at least I have honor enough not to attack the good men who did their damndest. Just because they failed, did not mean they didn’t try.


80 posted on 06/05/2013 7:28:28 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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Comment #81 Removed by Moderator

To: TexasTransplant

It’s not bs.

Building on fire, get out of the damn building ASAP and stay out of the damn building. Don’t rush your damned fool ass back into the fire after getting out safely.


82 posted on 06/05/2013 7:30:44 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE

“People really need help but may attack you if you do help them.”


83 posted on 06/05/2013 7:33:27 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: andyk

You believe the man was amenable to reason at that point in time, knowing that he had failed to get his child out of the house and had inadvertently left him in there? I don’t think he was at all. I think he would have done whatever it took to go back in and would not have cared a whit for his own safety. Chance or no chance, he would have seen dying there preferable to survival.

Which means that he’s not capable of properly assessing the situation in such a way that he had a chance to actually succeed.

The problem is this - he has a son and a wife and what is left of the remainder of his family. He still has obligations to them as well. Is it right for him to throw away those responsibilities?


84 posted on 06/05/2013 7:40:40 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Yeah, it is my decision to make to try to keep someone from running into a burning building.

No, it's not. As a free human being, my life is mine to decide what to do with it. If I decide to risk it to safe my child, that is my decision to make. I don't need any nanny-state power-tripping control freak deciding for me.

I can no more let you go and die than you can go and let your son die.

My son is my responsibility. I am not yours, despite your beliefs to the contrary. I neither want nor need your 'protection.' As a grown adult, you are not responsible for my actions.

If I let you in

'Let' me in? Once again, it is not your place to 'allow' me to risk my life.

C.S. Lewis said it best when it comes to people like you who think they are better equipped to make decisions for other people than the person himself: "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

85 posted on 06/05/2013 7:51:31 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: 3D-JOY

What else do you expect from reporters? It is tacky and probably meant to be insulting. Bur if they were decent individuals, they would not be reporters.


86 posted on 06/05/2013 7:58:26 AM PDT by sport
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To: tnlibertarian
And had you prevented me from attempting to save my son, no matter how long the odds, I would hunt you down afterwards.

To thank him for saving the other child's father?

87 posted on 06/05/2013 7:59:31 AM PDT by RGSpincich
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To: tnlibertarian

“No, it’s not. As a free human being, my life is mine to decide what to do with it.”

If I see someone trying to run into a burning building I am going to try to stop them, because I have a human obligation to try to save their life.

“If I decide to risk it to safe my child, that is my decision to make.”

And I have an obligation to try to stop you.

“I don’t need any nanny-state power-tripping control freak deciding for me.”

Ok, so let me ask you something then. You see someone on a bridge and it looks like he’s going to jump. Do you get out and try to save his life, or do you drive away and carry on with your day?

“My son is my responsibility. I am not yours”

Yes, you are my responsibility if I see you trying to run into a burning building and I am in a position to intervene. Again, I have an obligation as a human being to try to save your life.

“I neither want nor need your ‘protection.’ “

Well, tough beans. You’ve got it.

“As a grown adult, you are not responsible for my actions.”

Actually, that is not true here - the police officer is responsible if he lets you run into the building. This is negligence on his part because it is his job to keep the building secure and keep people from running into it and dying.

So, not only does he have a human obligation to save your life, he has a professional obligation to keep you out of the building.

“Once again, it is not your place to ‘allow’ me to risk my life.”

It’s my obligation as the police officer to keep everyone out. This includes you.

I sincerely doubt that C.S. Lewis would countenance letting someone kill themselves. I have an obligation to try to save your life if I see you rushing into a burning building.


88 posted on 06/05/2013 8:10:21 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Altariel; All
First of all. This TV news article is crap. Most TV news reports are so juvenile, that we see better writing from middle schoolers.

More to the point. I call your attention to the REAL STORY as found in the San Antonio Express News....

According to Wallace, Darion's father tried to run back into the burning home to save his son but was restrained when he was shot with a Taser by San Antonio police. A spokesman for SAPD said the infant's body had already been discovered, “and the scene was being processed when (the) male tried to forcibly enter the scene.”

Now, its possible the Express News got the story wrong even worse than KENS-TV. But we do know the parents, the cops and the fire department all arrived on the scene AFTER the fire started, and its safe to assume the SAPD is right: The baby was dead and officials knew it. And when a distraught father tried to risk his life in vain - the cops did the right thing as tazed him.

But that makes for a boring TV news story. So what do TV journo-wanna-be's do? EMBELLISH!

89 posted on 06/05/2013 8:28:49 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: elteemike

Too much of the necessary information is missing ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No kidding. See post 89 for details on what really happened.


90 posted on 06/05/2013 8:30:49 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: TexasTransplant; JCBreckenridge

See post 89. The baby was already dead before the father tried to rush in.

They knew that.

So. Does that change the equation?


91 posted on 06/05/2013 8:33:30 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: JCBreckenridge; TexasTransplant; dragnet2
Disagree. First lesson of a fire - if you are out do not go back in.

That may be your rule, but all of the many first responders I personally know have put their own lives in jeopardy going into burning buildings, cars, and airplanes whenever they could be of aid to others.

Are you suggesting it’s the motivation of cowardice to follow this rule?

There is not enough information in the article to determine definitively whether it was cowardice, but based on the facts presented it certainly appears to be a major factor.

Real life is not the movies. Sure, it sounds great to run in there and try to save your kid and get back out - but if you run in there and die how does that help anyone?

Your overly simplistic analysis completely neglects the likelihoods involved of the danger to the rescuer and the chance of rescue of the victim. Most people I know would gladly put themselves at some risk to provide others a significant hope. Your faulty absolutist view does not allow for a rescuer to take even a very small risk for an almost certain rescue. That does seem cowardly.

I have two younger brothers. I have had to look after them since they were small. Both my mother and my father would have excoriated me for ever going back inside in a fire for any reason.

Now we can all see where you developed this odd point of view. I would hate to be born into your family. You are lucky to have survived that abject lack of parental and familial self-sacrificial love. I hope you never find yourself in any danger, you would be on your own!

Get the hell out. Get away from the fire. Do whatever you have to do to get out. If it means jumping out the top window and breaking a leg - break the damn leg.

And whatever you do, don't slow down to save someone else! Am I starting to figure you out?

That was our rule with a fire. Don’t look around for anybody else. Get the hell out. Worry about the rest of it - once you are out of the house and safe.

Wow, I was right about you! This along with your earlier advice to never run into a burning home means that you would never incur any risk to help anyone else. This really paints an ugly picture of you as a person. Can you see that?

You are not superman.

And from everything you have posted here, you aren't even a man. I pity you.

92 posted on 06/05/2013 8:34:38 AM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: tnlibertarian; dragnet2

Just pinging a few of the posters on this thread to post 89.

It galls me that so many FReepers knee-jerk over an idiot TV news report that has little to no info.

Not saying the Express News report is actual and factual, but it makes sense to believe police and fire officials KNEW the poor baby was dead and thats why they prevented the father from becoming another victim.

Read more here...

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Family-s-sunshine-dies-in-East-Side-fire-4569644.php


93 posted on 06/05/2013 8:40:29 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Altariel

If the FD wasn’t going in WITH THE CORRECT EQUIPMENT, I doubt the outcome would have been anything less than TWO dead people.


94 posted on 06/05/2013 8:47:49 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
According to Wallace, Darion's father tried to run back into the burning home to save his son but was restrained when he was shot with a Taser by San Antonio police. A spokesman for SAPD said the infant's body had already been discovered, “and the scene was being processed when (the) male tried to forcibly enter the scene.”

Boy, that makes a lot of sense...lol

95 posted on 06/05/2013 8:49:27 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: JCBreckenridge
If I see someone trying to run into a burning building I am going to try to stop them, because I have a human obligation to try to save their life.

And the father saw it as his obligation to try to save his child's life. Where do you get off deciding that your obligation, to a person in general, is greater than that person's obligation to their child?

Well, tough beans. You’ve got it.

You need to remember for whom you work. A little more 'Serve' and a little less 'rule' is in order. For you and 98% of the folks in your job

This is negligence on his part because it is his job to keep the building secure

'The building?' When did I lose my private property rights? It's not your building.

Do you get out and try to save his life, or do you drive away and carry on with your day?

Let me ask you a question. If you incur a certain amount of risk in trying to save his life by going out on the bridge with him, who decides if the risk is warranted? You, or Big Brother? Same thing here. Who decides whether the risk was warranted? The father, not you. As a police officer, you have no extra-citizen power or control. If I couldn't tazer the guy, and I couldn't, neither can you.

96 posted on 06/05/2013 8:55:31 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: tnlibertarian

“Where do you get off deciding that your obligation, to a person in general, is greater than that person’s obligation to their child?”

I don’t. I have an obligation. You have an obligation. I have to try to stop you and you’ll try to push through me.

“You need to remember for whom you work. A little more ‘Serve’ and a little less ‘rule’ is in order. For you and 98% of the folks in your job”

One, I’m not a cop. I’m saying, if I were a cop - I would have done what he did. I believe he did the right thing.

” ‘The building?’ When did I lose my private property rights? It’s not your building.”

What building. It’s on fire. You’ve called the firemen to try to put the fire out. By the time that happens, the house is mostly gone and they aren’t going to save it. Now you’re going to run into the building? Not a chance.

“Let me ask you a question. If you incur a certain amount of risk in trying to save his life by going out on the bridge with him, who decides if the risk is warranted?”

Answer my question first.

Do you get out and try to save that person’s life or do you drive on. You yourself have just stated that you don’t believe you have a personal obligation to anyone outside of your immediate family.


97 posted on 06/05/2013 9:16:02 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: dragnet2

Well, looks like we have our answer.

Glad to see that the evidence confirms that I was completely right here.


98 posted on 06/05/2013 9:17:22 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Not on my end. Ask Tex how he feels about rushing in to save someone that the cops already know is dead.


99 posted on 06/05/2013 9:19:04 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Ronaldus Magnus

“That may be your rule, but all of the many first responders I personally know have put their own lives in jeopardy going into burning buildings, cars, and airplanes whenever they could be of aid to others.”

Ok. Am I talking about first responders or am I talking about the average person caught in a house fire. I’m talking to the average person caught in a house fire. They need to get out. They are not a first responder - they are not trained to deal with the situation.

“There is not enough information in the article to determine definitively whether it was cowardice, but based on the facts presented it certainly appears to be a major factor.”

Now, that the facts have confirmed that:

1, the firemen already knew that the kid was dead, now, it make sense what the police officer did by saving the life of the father? It’s a damn good thing he did too, because otherwise there would be two funerals and not one.

There’s absolutely nothing cowardly about choosing to accept reality here. Kid was dead. Nothing more could be done.

“Your overly simplistic analysis completely neglects the likelihoods involved of the danger”

Actually, I had the situation pegged. There was exactly zero benefit to him going in and risking his life for someone already dead. No risk was acceptable in this circumstance.

“Most people I know would gladly put themselves at some risk to provide others a significant hope.”

Not with the kid being dead, there’s simply no point in risking someone’s life.

“Your faulty absolutist view does not allow for a rescuer to take even a very small risk for an almost certain rescue.”

‘Certain rescue’? There was certainty, but it wasn’t a rescue.

“Now we can all see where you developed this odd point of view.”

I was trained how to get out. We never had a single fire. God willing never will.

“I would hate to be born into your family.”

Best cause is preventation. Plan for the worst but do what you can to prevent being in the situation in the first place.

“I hope you never find yourself in any danger, you would be on your own!”

Yeah, I had parents who loved me enough to teach me how to be self-reliant in the situation where I was in danger and gave me the skills necessary to look after myself. Yeah, they really didn’t love me at all there.

“And whatever you do, don’t slow down to save someone else! Am I starting to figure you out?”

Like I said, we did drills. Timed drills. I said this exact same thing to my father so he said - well, let’s try it your way. So we did. Fire alarm came, my father went to go check up on me, I went to go check up on my father, my mother on us, my brothers on each other.

By the time we all managed to find the other, we were still in the house and now clustered together. We still had to find the exit of the house and get out.

We didn’t make it in 10 minutes and my dad said, “you’re dead”.

Point driven home.

We did it his way, and we consistantly got everyone out of the house in 10 minutes easily. Everyone knew his job and where to go and where to meet up. Nobody had to stop and figure things out we all knew what to do when it happened.

Escape plans either work or they do not. You don’t have time to fix it if it doesn’t work. It has to be right the first time.

“Can you see that?”

How so? Like I said, escape plans either work or they do not.

“And from everything you have posted here, you aren’t even a man. I pity you.”

Yawn. Ronaldus minimus apparently has forgotten Ronald’s rules about personal attacks.


100 posted on 06/05/2013 9:31:48 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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