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Vanity: Need Dog Vaccine Adverse Reaction Advice
None ^ | July 16, 2013 | cva66snipe

Posted on 07/16/2013 7:10:29 PM PDT by cva66snipe

We have a Toy Rat Terrier {from a Chihuahua mix} we think is having a delayed reaction to her annual vaccines. Last Tuesday she had her Rabies, Bordetella/Kennel Cough, DA2PP, vaccines. Yesterday evening she started breaking out in bumps on her skin as well as vomiting and bloody stool with diarrhea.

Normally I would assume it is a virus except for this part of her history last year. Last year she had the same shots and about a week later these same symptoms happened and had to be treated. The Vet at that time which was one open on a Saturday gave her antihistamine and Steroids. Today different Vet her regular Vet this time gave her Benedryl, Famotidine injection, and Metronidazole orally to take 14 days.

I believe this is being caused by one of the vaccines. The Vets both of them say a week is too long for that too happen. She's still not wanting to hold down food well but bladder and bowel function is there.

Has anyone experienced this before in this timeframe of delay? This is my wife's companion dog and acts also as my service dog for my hearing with hearing aids out. Thanks.


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To: cva66snipe

It will keep getting worse with each vaccine.


51 posted on 07/16/2013 8:36:57 PM PDT by rintense
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To: rintense

I did the raw diet for a while with my two Dandies. I loved it because there was no smelly gas and the stool dried up in the yard, turned white and went away. None of the soft messy stuff. However, I quit doing it because it was so expensive for 2 40 lb dogs and I’m too lazy to make it all myself. I still give raw meaty bones which they love. I highly recommend the raw food diet though.


52 posted on 07/16/2013 8:42:52 PM PDT by dandiegirl
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To: Salamander

I only get the vaccinations that are required by law. Also only give heartworm pills about once every 2 months. All is so expensive and unnecessary in my opinion. The vets make a fortune by recommending that we buy all these monthly doses. Too many chemicals, I think. My vet treated my dogs ear with a steroid to prevent future yeast infections and she totally lost her hearing shortly thereafter. She’s only 8 years old. . They take them back there and give them all kinds of injections and then present you with a bill for $300.


53 posted on 07/16/2013 8:49:57 PM PDT by dandiegirl
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To: rintense
It will keep getting worse with each vaccine.

Yea that's what I believe and I've seen serious medication adverse reactions in humans before several times. Reactions that I was told simply did not happen. My wife took Trazadone and Zoloft and thought she was an angel. That went on almost a week. It also nearly killed her. Thank GOD for the internet. I figured it out they didn't.

54 posted on 07/16/2013 8:51:58 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

Well she just got sick again. She threw up clear liquid this time. Maybe the worse is over.


55 posted on 07/16/2013 8:58:53 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

Everyone has done a great job of covering the basics. Two things (hopefully, I didn’t miss them already mentioned).
You can get titers for rabies, at least, & probably others.
Ft Dodge is a manufacturer I avoid.

Three things- for the FRiend whose fur kid has seizures & can’t take HW prevention. I just ordered Dimmitrol (same as the old Filaribits) from one of the Australian pet pharmacies. If you decide to go this route, have your critter tested first, even if they have been tested recently.

Sending you prayers, cva66snipe.


56 posted on 07/16/2013 9:12:31 PM PDT by KGeorge (Till we're together again, Gypsy girl. May 28, 1998- June 3, 2013)
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To: KGeorge

Thanks. I gotta hit the hay soon. Four hours sleep in the last 30 hours is a wearing me down. If she isn’t a lot more perky tomorrow I’m going to take her to the Vet she saw last year when it happened. My gut instinct says vaccine reaction as does common sense with the timeframes exactally matching. I’ve been a make shift nurse {caregiver} for 28 years and my gut instinct usually holds true.


57 posted on 07/16/2013 9:30:29 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Salamander

Good info, thanks. :)


58 posted on 07/16/2013 9:37:24 PM PDT by Altariel ("Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!")
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To: cva66snipe

I know everyone is mentioning low doses of benadryl but dogs metabolize much different than ppl. I have a 75 # basset that was prescribed 150 mg of benadryl a day. And it didn’t phase him. Don’t be shocked at the dose if you vet recommends that for the dog.

Also, rabies shots are 1 for the first year, then one every three years.

Going forward you may need to med dog before getting vaccines.


59 posted on 07/16/2013 9:53:04 PM PDT by ican'tbelieveit
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To: cva66snipe

It was probably the 6 or 7 “combo” shot which includes Lepto.

*If* I vaccinate, I insist upon separate vax spaced out over time.

I never ‘shotgun’ vaccinate with the combos.

Someone once asked why our dogs seemed to live longer ‘back in the day’.

We have better food, better vet care, better diagnostics yet they still die/get sick more often than they really should.

The only thing that’s changed is the vaccine push, which, coincidentally, is extremely profitable for vets.

Before I bought into the annual vax protocol, my dogs only went to the vet to be neutered and occasional required shots.

Nobody ever ‘got sick’.
Since the over vaccination craze, I feel like I’m dragging somebody in every month for some weird, obscure thing.

My vet doesn’t like it but I’ve let years go by before I come in for their ‘annuals’.

The rabies I *have* to do every three years due to state law but the rest is pointless, IMO.

The Lyme vax is now under scrutiny for causing Lyme symptoms even though it doesn’t cause the actual disease.

Same difference, if you ask me.


60 posted on 07/16/2013 10:01:33 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: Altariel

Keep in mind all of that’s “heresy” to most vets but today’s heretic is tomorrow’s prophet.

:)


61 posted on 07/16/2013 10:02:46 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: Salamander

What about heartworm? Do you do that?


62 posted on 07/16/2013 10:04:45 PM PDT by Lurkina.n.Learnin (If global warming exists I hope it is strong enough to reverse the Big Government snowball)
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To: dandiegirl

All you ever need:

http://www.petco.com/product/105336/8-in-1-safe-guard-4-Canine-Dewormer.aspx

A 3 day course of that clears out *everything*.

Yeast infections in ears is cured with organic vinegar that _includes the “mother”_.

Steroids blow their immune systems up and lay them open for all other infections.

Use *only* in life or death situations.

I am very sorry about your poor pup.

:(


63 posted on 07/16/2013 10:09:15 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: Lurkina.n.Learnin

It’s included in this.

http://www.petco.com/product/105336/8-in-1-safe-guard-4-Canine-Dewormer.aspx

Also, thanks to the ravenous Koi and Comets who cheerfully lurk in the backyard pond, awaiting the skeeters egg-laying efforts, we have virtually no mosquitoes here.

And bats.

We have lots of bats.

In 23 years here, I have not had a heartworm positive dog, despite not having heartwormer available for most of those years.


64 posted on 07/16/2013 10:12:56 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: Lurkina.n.Learnin

Sorry..*not* included.

Ivomec Pour On from the farm store for heartworms UNLESS you have -any- kind of Collie/collie mix.

They can’t have Ivermectin in any form.


65 posted on 07/16/2013 10:19:19 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: Salamander

Thanks. The vet insists on the heartworm treats every month and I would like an alternative.


66 posted on 07/16/2013 10:25:48 PM PDT by Lurkina.n.Learnin (If global warming exists I hope it is strong enough to reverse the Big Government snowball)
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To: cva66snipe

You should be able to dose her with baby Benadryl. Follow the instructions for a 10 pound baby.


67 posted on 07/16/2013 10:27:23 PM PDT by old and tired
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To: Lurkina.n.Learnin

Found this

http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/heartworm_free.html#HWPREVENTION


68 posted on 07/16/2013 10:46:23 PM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: cva66snipe

You’ll be wise to trust your instincts. I’ve been where you are (Ivermectin poisoning). God Bless Y’All & Keep your girl safe.


69 posted on 07/16/2013 11:01:20 PM PDT by KGeorge (Till we're together again, Gypsy girl. May 28, 1998- June 3, 2013)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
The weight of the dog is important in giving Benedryl. I was shocked when my vet put her on 75 mg, twice a day, but she didn't even get sleepy from it....I take 3 benedryl for sleeping and it works like a charm...(insomnia). But she quit licking her paws which the vet told me was the main observation on environmental allergies...her ear problem also eased up and didn't put out a lot of discharge. She did not have mites or anything in her ears. The medication the first vet put her on caused her deafness...was told that by the second vet and checked it on the Internet, yep, can cause deafness in about 20% of dogs that use it....I have nothing good to say about the first vet....
70 posted on 07/17/2013 3:05:09 AM PDT by goat granny
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To: cva66snipe

Dittos on the STOP vaccinating! Except for the required rabbies vax.

Panacur is a great intestinal worm dewormer, and does not cover heartworms. Someone recommended using every three months, but worm lifecycle is more freequent than that so you may want to use more often if your area has a problem with worms and the dog can tolerate it.

Your vet probably won’t like that you’re not doing yearly vaccines, if you choose to go that route. Most people “forget” to take their dog in for a yearly exam if they don’t vax yearly, and the vet loses quite a bit of money lost.


71 posted on 07/17/2013 3:36:35 AM PDT by Roos_Girl (The world is full of educated derelicts. - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: cva66snipe

Vets will argue about not skipping vaccines, but the irony is, the Dr.Dodd’s protocol has been adopted by over 20 vets schools. Hope your pooch is better soon!


72 posted on 07/17/2013 3:42:46 AM PDT by rintense
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To: cva66snipe

Sometimes the real small dogs can’t take the load like a bigger dog. We don’t vaccinate every year. Every two years is plenty. Just my opinion. I hope your dog gets better soon. The cottage cheese usually works.


73 posted on 07/17/2013 5:13:47 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: ican'tbelieveit
I know everyone is mentioning low doses of benadryl but dogs metabolize much different than ppl. I have a 75 # basset that was prescribed 150 mg of benadryl a day. And it didn’t phase him. Don’t be shocked at the dose if you vet recommends that for the dog. Also, rabies shots are 1 for the first year, then one every three years. Going forward you may need to med dog before getting vaccines.

Yea I kinda learned the hard way about their absorption rate. Years ago I had a big black Lab that found a bottle of Xanax I dropped in the yard. I estimated he ate about 10-15 mg. He was pretty laid back for a few hours LOL. My now ex-son in law worked for a Vet and called him and his boss laughed and said just watch him a few hours most of it won't absorb.

74 posted on 07/17/2013 5:16:12 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Salamander
It was probably the 6 or 7 “combo” shot which includes Lepto. *If* I vaccinate, I insist upon separate vax spaced out over time. I never ‘shotgun’ vaccinate with the combos. Someone once asked why our dogs seemed to live longer ‘back in the day’. We have better food, better vet care, better diagnostics yet they still die/get sick more often than they really should. The only thing that’s changed is the vaccine push, which, coincidentally, is extremely profitable for vets. Before I bought into the annual vax protocol, my dogs only went to the vet to be neutered and occasional required shots. Nobody ever ‘got sick’. Since the over vaccination craze, I feel like I’m dragging somebody in every month for some weird, obscure thing. My vet doesn’t like it but I’ve let years go by before I come in for their ‘annuals’. The rabies I *have* to do every three years due to state law but the rest is pointless, IMO. The Lyme vax is now under scrutiny for causing Lyme symptoms even though it doesn’t cause the actual disease. Same difference, if you ask me.

Yea shots routine is getting changed and some of it dropped. I think the Bordetella/Kennel Cough is the most likely culprit and she really doesn't need it.

She's holding her food now. I started her back slow last night and she's ate what she normally does I just spread it out. She threw up once this morning but very little in it and most I suspect is now processing through her normally. No noticeable blood in stool either. VET last year told me that part in a dog wasn't really an emergency or danger the way it is in a human. When they have a reaction their gut usually gets tore up and they'll bleed a little. I'm going to look up state Rabies vaccination law too. Really the only thing I worry about is Coons and unfortunately we have too many.

She's got her I'm the boss strut back in her walk now LOL.

75 posted on 07/17/2013 5:28:24 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: old and tired
You should be able to dose her with baby Benadryl. Follow the instructions for a 10 pound baby.

Yea I have to run my wife out to the doctor this afternoon. I'll likely give the dog a dose before we go so she'll sleep while were gone.

76 posted on 07/17/2013 5:31:02 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Roos_Girl
Dittos on the STOP vaccinating! Except for the required rabbies vax. Panacur is a great intestinal worm dewormer, and does not cover heartworms. Someone recommended using every three months, but worm lifecycle is more freequent than that so you may want to use more often if your area has a problem with worms and the dog can tolerate it. Your vet probably won’t like that you’re not doing yearly vaccines, if you choose to go that route. Most people “forget” to take their dog in for a yearly exam if they don’t vax yearly, and the vet loses quite a bit of money lost.

The Tri-Heart works good for her on Heart Worms prevention and on most of the other more common worms. She's never shown any issues. It's a must do here. My dad lost a real good Boxer to Heart Worms and it cost him a small fortune trying to save him.

77 posted on 07/17/2013 5:36:48 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: rintense
Vets will argue about not skipping vaccines, but the irony is, the Dr.Dodd’s protocol has been adopted by over 20 vets schools. Hope your pooch is better soon!

She's doing a lot better. Holding down food and wanting to scrap with me about her Milk Bones now. I think the worse has past but it's gonna take a day or two more to get over it completely. Shot routine is getting changed. I'm not killing my dog over vaccines she really doesn't need now.

I've doctored up goats and cats before. If you go by the book Goats need a lot of shots. Mine were Brush Goats up in the woods so I never gave them anything. They either all died of old age or the typical herd inter fighting.

I used to have outside cats that for one reason or another {usually lizards} wouldn't eat. I'd smeared peanut butter on their face till they got better. Cat's cleaning instinct made them clean off the peanut butter LOL.

78 posted on 07/17/2013 5:45:30 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
Sometimes the real small dogs can’t take the load like a bigger dog. We don’t vaccinate every year. Every two years is plenty. Just my opinion. I hope your dog gets better soon. The cottage cheese usually works.

Yea the other Ratty is about 22 pounds and it doesn't seem to bother her any. She's from a Beagle mix so that helps also. I guess if the Vet don't like it there are others. He has the say on the Heartworm meds is the only hold on us.

79 posted on 07/17/2013 5:53:08 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

You might want to give her plain boiled chicken breast and white rice for a few days to help her stomach heal.

Best of luck to her and you.

:)


80 posted on 07/17/2013 6:30:52 AM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: cva66snipe

A quick read says rabies vac can indeed give reaction like this, and that small dogs in particular may be more likely to react. Also that combo shots are more dangerous for them.

If they don’t think it’s allergy why did they give you Benadryl? Just to be sure?


81 posted on 07/17/2013 7:01:25 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: cva66snipe

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/RabiesLaws.pdf

Looks like it depends.


82 posted on 07/17/2013 7:08:01 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
A quick read says rabies vac can indeed give reaction like this, and that small dogs in particular may be more likely to react. Also that combo shots are more dangerous for them. If they don’t think it’s allergy why did they give you Benadryl? Just to be sure?

They gave it too her in a shot form in the Vets Office but I do keep it on hand myself for the dogs first aid in event of stings etc.

Benadryl is also good for other uses from controlling adverse reactions too allergies. So that part made perfect sense to me. I used to break out in Hives for no determined reason and a shot of Benadryl in the sitter was the usual Emergency Room Protocol. Thanks for the Rabies Info. I have a year now to do some serious digging.

83 posted on 07/17/2013 7:18:41 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/RabiesLaws.pdf

Once again.


84 posted on 07/17/2013 7:19:56 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: cva66snipe

Second the chicken and rice. Cottage cheese isn’t bad but try boiled chicken and rice first. Tiny pieces for you sensitive small dog.

Believe me, no one has had the variety of issues I’ve had with one single dog. She’s 11 now.


85 posted on 07/17/2013 7:23:10 AM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
OK I'm in Tennessee and Rabies Vaccine depends on type used. Evidently they use a one year type likely I'm assuming due to City of Knoxville's own obscure laws although we live in a different county. I'm also assuming they have two different vaccines for Rabies to appease the differing state laws.
86 posted on 07/17/2013 7:25:23 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Salamander

Just talked to Vet again. Now they’re on board about shots. Her belly overnight had broken out just like last year. So I’ll be picking up Benadryl pills this afternoon about 10-12 MG 2 times a day.. It’s a relief just to get the cause pinned down.


87 posted on 07/17/2013 7:48:13 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

Really hope everything works out.

I can take whatever life throws at me so long as my dogs are healthy....:)


88 posted on 07/17/2013 8:25:32 AM PDT by Salamander (.......Uber Alice!.......)
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To: cva66snipe

Check out the info. on vaccines from holistic vet Karen Becker on her site: www.healthypets.mercola.com

Here is a search link for some of her articles on vaccinosis:

http://search.mercola.com/search/pages/Results.aspx?k=vaccine%20reactions&r=sitename=%22AR4BaHR0cDovL2hlYWx0aHlwZXRzLm1lcmNvbGEuY29tCHNpdGVuYW1lAQEiASI=%22

Bottom line: the head immunologist, Dr. Ron Schultz, advises that vaccines should NOT be given yearly, but titering should be done at intervals reflecting the current protocols (3 years for Rabies and for Distemper/Parvo). As the dog gets older (over 10 years old), those titers can be repeated more often (yearly) as dogs tend to lose some of their immunity as they age, just as humans do.

If a dog has a reaction (and no, a week is not “too long” for a reaction — not at all!!), do not vaccinate again. Use titers and if you absolutely MUST vaccinate for something be sure it is a single vaccine and not a “mombo combo”. Bordetella is pretty useless and shouldn’t be administered unless you have to do so for boarding purposes. It will not prevent kennel cough, but supposedly makes the case milder if caught. The problem is it has a low lasting immunity and must be administered about every 6 months....which is a lot for a vaccine. The purpose of the bordatella shot is for liability purposes for businesses and has nothing to do with the health of the pet. Most dogs can throw off a case of kennel cough fairly easily if their immune system is not compromised. Hope this helps!


89 posted on 07/18/2013 12:50:24 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: RegulatorCountry

We titer also, starting this year. No more vaccines for us! You are right, of course. Many long-term illnesses, chronic and some fatal, are linked to over vaccination, although most vets are still reluctant to make the connection.


90 posted on 07/18/2013 12:52:10 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: RegulatorCountry

The same vaccine is administered, according to Dr. Ron Schultz — whether labeled for one year or three. Pet parent “beware”.


91 posted on 07/18/2013 12:55:07 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: cva66snipe

So your Vet vaccinated a sick dog??? That’s a big “no no”. Labels and studies all point to the necessity of a non-compromised dog for vaccination to be given. The fact that the “reactions” are getting worse should be a HUGE red flag!! What happens when the Bendadryl doesn’t work and you lose your dog?? No way would I take that kind of chance. It’s not worth it, and as many have stated here, there are many other options.


92 posted on 07/18/2013 12:58:30 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: cva66snipe

Is your dog at “high risk” for getting rabies? Probably not. There are very few domestic animal rabies cases — or even wild animal rabies cases today in the U.S. Unless my dog ran wild I would titer for this one too. Yes, I know “it’s the law” blah blah blah, but unless you live in a nanny state where what you do or don’t do at the vet’s office is reported to the state, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. Titer to be sure she’s protected, but if she’s an inside dog and doesn’t come into contact with wildlife on her own where you can’t protect her, I wouldn’t take the risk.


93 posted on 07/18/2013 1:04:25 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: rintense

Loved reading your post! We are also “raw feeders” and have seen some “chronic” problems clear up because of the stronger immune systems our dogs now have. We also titer. Always great to meet another like-minded person on this issue!!


94 posted on 07/18/2013 1:07:06 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH
So your Vet vaccinated a sick dog??? That’s a big “no no”.

I meant she was in trouble when he gave her the antibiotics and bendadyrl. She was fine a week before on the day of her shots. I took her to the Vet the day I posted for the reaction.

Well yesterday she ate like she was starving today she's turning her nose up at food. I wish he'd gave her some steroid.

95 posted on 07/18/2013 5:46:14 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

I hope she’s better soon, but I would highly recommend getting a holistic/integrative vet on your team for cases like this. They will work with you on strengthening her immune system and on helping her body “right” itself without causing further harm with steroids, drugs, etc... Here is a great link for finding someone: www.ahvma.org

Please keep us posted on how she’s doing!


96 posted on 07/18/2013 6:24:24 PM PDT by JLLH
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To: JLLH
Thanks. She went out a little while ago and grazed on grass. When she came back in she ate. Her stomach acids were off a little I guess. I'll give her some unseasoned green beans tomorrow with her food. She loves them. The main thing now is getting the rash to go away. The Benadryl should do that. The only thing the steroids do is stop the rash sooner thus stopping the stomach issues. Plus it would stimulate appetite. I've had to take them myself for reactions. I get as hungry as horse when I have to take them.
97 posted on 07/18/2013 7:00:31 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: All
Looks like she's recovered now. She's eating good again and the rash is just about gone. Thanks for the help.

She's a special little dog. We got her to keep my wife company and we needed a dog that was small enough to lay in her lap but could also make the jump from the floor up to her lap in the wheelchair. That's almost three feet. The Toy Ratty is able too. She's also highly protective and not scared of anything or anybody LOL. My wife trained her to also wake me up or come and get me when she needs me for something. I'm partially deaf and sleep with my hearing aids out. She wakes me up if someone is outside or my cell phone rings etc.

We also have a large Ratty we rescued. She's the CEO of our Two Terriers Home Security Service LOL. In the cooler months she also rides around with me on errands.

98 posted on 07/19/2013 7:10:01 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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