Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Atherstone: Burial Place of Arthur-Arthun-Anwn-Andragathius?
Early British Kingdoms ^ | 2001 | David Nash Ford

Posted on 01/12/2014 5:38:26 PM PST by SunkenCiv

The Tradition: Geoffrey of Monmouth and other medieval Arthurian writers tell us that Arthur was taken to the Isle of Avalon to be healed of his wounds after the Battle of Camlann. Later tradition assumed that he died and was buried there and identified the place as Glastonbury in Somerset.

The Theory & Discovery: Blackett & Wilson claim that one of the two figures who went to make up "King Arthur" is to be identified with the Emperor Magnus Maximus's son, King Anwn of South Wales. This man, who occasionally may have spelt his name Arthun, they identify with both the real King Arthur and the classical Andragathius who fought for Maximus during his continental campaigns. In searching for his burial-place, Blackett & Wilson claim that the original Glastennen of Arthurian legend became confused with Glastonbury in Somerset. Its original location was at an ancient cemetery called the "Old Bury" near Atherstone in Warwickshire. The village of Glascote stands nearby. They cite the Harleian MS 3859 Pedigree No 25 as proof, by interpreting its last passage "funt glastenic qui uenerunt que uocatur loyt coyt" as meaning that the people of Glastennen lived at a place called Caer-Luit-Coyt, that is nearby Wall in Staffordshire. Blackett & Wilson believe that the Warwickshire Arthurian tradition became absorbed into the tales of the local hero, Guy of Warwick. Final proof came with their apparent discovery of an ancient sub-Roman memorial stone at Old Bury bearing the partial inscription, Artoriu...Iacit in...Maci... - possibly "Artorius lies here (son of) Maci(mus)". Could Atherstone have taken its name from this very monument?

(Excerpt) Read more at earlybritishkingdoms.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: andragathius; artorius; atherstone; avalon; camelot; camlann; godsgravesglyphs; guyofwarwick; kingarthur; magnusmaximus; romanempire; stratford; wansdyke; warwickshire
Atherstone

1 posted on 01/12/2014 5:38:26 PM PST by SunkenCiv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Possible Interpretations & Criticism: The appearance of Arthurian themes in the tales of Guy of Warwick were first recognised by Edward Llwyd back in the early 18th century and the idea of an amalgam of such stories in the Midlands is not without merit. Key to Blackett & Wilson's argument, however, is their interpretation of the Harleian MS 3859 passage concerning Glastennen. Unfortunately, the usual translation indicates that the people of Caer-Luit-Coyt (Wall) relocated themselves to the Somerset Levels and this is backed up by old Glastonbury legends about the town's founder, Glast, who can be found in North Welsh border pedigrees. There therefore seems little reason to search for an alternative Glastonbury. The "Arthur Stone" has still to be examined by recognised academic authorities. Blackett & Wilson are actively seeking an independent scholar to undertake such a task; the results of which are eagerly awaited by the Arthurian research community.
2 posted on 01/12/2014 5:38:49 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Andragathius (66 words)
Portmann, Werner (Berlin)
From AD 383-388 A. was mag. equitum of the usurper Maximus. He murdered the emperor Gratian in 383 (Ambr. Commentarius in psalmis 61,23-25; Zos. 4,35,6). In 388 he prepared the defence of Maximus against Theodosius I and placed himself at the head of the fleet in the Adriatic. After Theodosius’ victory he plunged himself into the sea (Oros. 7,35; Zos. 4,46 f.).

Portmann, Werner (Berlin)

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/andragathius-e121080?s.num=0


3 posted on 01/12/2014 5:39:26 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Andragathius (c.345 - 388)
http://www.geni.com/people/Andragathius/6000000012560239346


4 posted on 01/12/2014 5:40:16 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

5 posted on 01/12/2014 5:41:12 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

It is difficult to know how much of these legends are based on true events and how much are not.

For instance, Plato’s description of Atlantis could not possibly be completely accurate. On the other hand it seems like the more we find out about events of the Iliad and the Bible, the more accurate they become.


6 posted on 01/12/2014 5:45:51 PM PST by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yarddog

“On the other hand it seems like the more we find out about events of the Iliad and the Bible, the more accurate they become.”

No expert here, and I don’t know about the Iliad, but it seems like the flood thing really happened. I don’t know if science supports that or not.


7 posted on 01/12/2014 6:02:31 PM PST by jocon307
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: jocon307

It has been so long since I read the Iliad that I can’t recall the details but Schlieman located Troy by using information in the Iliad.

Something about a landmark being visible from Troy. It described how it could only be seen by aligning certain geographic features.

Schlieman followed the instructions and began digging at Hisarlik, and eventually found Troy buried on that hill.


8 posted on 01/12/2014 6:09:58 PM PST by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv


"AND SLOWLY ANSWERED Arthur from the barge:
'The old order changeth, yielding place to new,
And God fulfils himself in many ways,
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.
Comfort thyself: what comfort is in me?
I have lived my life, and that which I have done
May He within himself make pure! but thou,
If thou shouldst never see my face again,
Pray for my soul. More things are wrought by prayer
Than this world dreams of. Wherefore, let thy voice
Rise like a fountain for me night and day.
For what are men better than sheep or goats
That nourish a blind life within the brain,
If, knowing God, they lift not hands of prayer
Both for themselves and those who call them friend?
For so the whole round earth is every way
Bound by gold chains about the feet of God.
But now farewell. I am going a long way
With these thou seest--if indeed I go
(For all my mind is clouded with a doubt)--
To the island-valley of Avilion;
Where falls not hail, or rain, or any snow,
Nor ever wind blows loudly; but it lies
Deep-meadowed, happy, fair with orchard lawns
And bowery hollows crowned with summer sea,
Where I will heal me of my grievous wound.'

So said he, and the barge with oar and sail
Moved from the brink, like some full-breasted swan
That, fluting a wild carol ere her death,
Ruffles her pure cold plume, and takes the flood
With swarthy webs. Long stood Sir Bedivere
Revolving many memories, till the hull
Looked one black dot against the verge of dawn,
And on the mere the wailing died away.

But when that moan had past for evermore,
The stillness of the dead world's winter dawn
Amazed him, and he groaned, 'The King is gone.'
And therewithal came on him the weird rhyme,
'From the great deep to the great deep he goes.'

Whereat he slowly turned and slowly clomb
The last hard footstep of that iron crag;
Thence marked the black hull moving yet, and cried,
'He passes to be King among the dead,
And after healing of his grievous wound
He comes again; but--if he come no more--
O me, be yon dark Queens in yon black boat,
Who shrieked and wailed, the three whereat we gazed
On that high day, when, clothed with living light,
They stood before his throne in silence, friends
Of Arthur, who should help him at his need?'

Then from the dawn it seemed there came, but faint
As from beyond the limit of the world,
Like the last echo born of a great cry,
Sounds, as if some fair city were one voice
Around a king returning from his wars.

Thereat once more he moved about, and clomb
Even to the highest he could climb, and saw,
Straining his eyes beneath an arch of hand,
Or thought he saw, the speck that bare the King,
Down that long water opening on the deep
Somewhere far off, pass on and on, and go
From less to less and vanish into light.
And the new sun rose bringing the new year."

From "The Passing Of Arthur"
By Alfred Lord Tennyson




"Dia shábháil ar fad anseo!"

Genuflectimus non ad principem sed ad Principem Pacis!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

9 posted on 01/12/2014 6:11:35 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Mlichael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: yarddog
The fancy stuff in Plato's description -- exact details of a temple interior, for instance -- looks like an embellishment, not least because the purported event was 9000 years before Plato's own time. It appears that he used both Timaeaus and Critias to pontificate about his ideas of an ideal society, while perhaps basing it on folklore about a vanished, effectively prehistoric society. The story of Atlantis itself is attributed to someone else present in the dialogue, a purported grandchild (I think it was) of Solon, the legendary (perhaps mythical) lawgiver who had in his time traveled to Egypt and been told the tale.
10 posted on 01/12/2014 6:12:39 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
an independent scholar to undertake such a task

blue dragons are much nicer than red dragons

11 posted on 01/12/2014 6:14:20 PM PST by bigheadfred
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: jocon307; yarddog

Schliemann decided to look for Troy, having reached the age of 50 and made himself quite wealthy through various businesses (including the slave trade) and erudite through independent study.

He started looking for Troy in an entirely wrong place, a natural hill with a naturally flat top, further inland, and found nothing. He was ready to give up on it and head home but encountered Frank Calvert, who had already dug test trenches at Hissarlik and found stuff.


12 posted on 01/12/2014 6:21:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ConorMacNessa

:’) Thanks CMN!


13 posted on 01/12/2014 6:22:15 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: bigheadfred

I think red dragons are actually kinder and gentler.


14 posted on 01/12/2014 6:23:17 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: yarddog

The difficulty in locating Troy was due to siltation, which had changed the coastline. The Bronze Age harbor of Troy had disappeared, and the city’s site is now inland. We are now able to plot the ancient shoreline accurately, and the site is very clear. Homer’s description fits very nicely.


15 posted on 01/12/2014 6:23:49 PM PST by sphinx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Schliemann also was about to buy the land where the Palace of Knossos was buried. He called off the deal because the seller tried to cheat him on the number of olive trees on the property.

Unknown to the land owner, Schliemann had actually counted them.


16 posted on 01/12/2014 6:26:11 PM PST by yarddog (Romans 8: verses 38 and 39. "For I am persuaded".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: yarddog

That’s one of the great might-have-beens — Evans delayed the decipherment of Linear B by nearly fifty years, and his first discovery of tablets resulted in their destruction, their contents losts.

Schliemann’s other success was the excavation of Mycenae, which was also related to the Homeric cycle, but (as at Troy) he overestimated the antiquity; he was however correct about the relative chronology. The use of pottery styles to date sites in and around the Aegean came along 40 to 50 years later, and radiocarbon dating not until 1950.


17 posted on 01/12/2014 6:38:59 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
You are most welcome, of course. Arthurian Legend, or as we referred to it in school "The Matter of Britain," has resonated strongly with me for over a half-century, and nowhere more than as realized in Tennyson's "Idylls of the King."

As dark as the times have become, Tennyson's Arthur, at least, had a moral compass, one from which many of our present-day leaders and citizens could profit.



America demands Justice for the Fallen of Benghazi!

O stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that we lie here, obedient to their command.

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

18 posted on 01/12/2014 6:43:54 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Mlichael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: jocon307
but it seems like the flood thing really happened.

Have a look at what is called The World History Chart.

Geographical locales are repesented in horizontal bands. Time runs from left to right.

Very early on....way back on the far left margin...you will see a red line that runs vertically through all geographies and civilizations. It is the Great Flood. Nearly all writings from that period in myriad civilizations have a tale of the Great Flood.

Evidence? No. Very interesting? Yes.

19 posted on 01/12/2014 7:10:09 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts ("The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it." - George Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ConorMacNessa

Thank you for posting Tennyson’s “The Passing of Arthur”. I really enjoyed reading it.


20 posted on 01/12/2014 7:21:24 PM PST by flaglady47 (When the gov't fears the people, liberty; When the people fear the gov't, tyranny.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv; Old Sarge

Thanks, SunkunCiv!
PINGING a good friend to your thread!


21 posted on 01/12/2014 9:47:40 PM PST by MS.BEHAVIN (Women who behave rarely make history)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ConorMacNessa

It has been almost 50 years since I read that poem. Thank you.


22 posted on 01/13/2014 6:50:18 AM PST by Bigg Red (Let the lying lips be dumb, which speak insolently against the righteous in pride and contempt.--Ps3)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Kinder and gentler? Obviously you haven’t read “Red Dragon” by Thomas Harris where Hannibal Lecter appears for the first time
as a minor villain.

Made into two pretty good serial killer movies.


23 posted on 01/13/2014 9:06:49 AM PST by wildbill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: wildbill

Nope, but then again, my family dynamic hasn’t made it into books yet. ;’)


24 posted on 01/13/2014 3:22:29 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Who knows? Magnus Maximus taking troops to the continent to pursue the throne seems to have begun the period of instability before all the legions left.


25 posted on 01/13/2014 4:20:36 PM PST by colorado tanker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!

Somebody had to...

26 posted on 01/14/2014 10:37:41 AM PST by fatez ("If you're going through Hell, keep going." Winston Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Arthurian References in the Annales Cambriae (Annals of Wales)
University of Rochester
by: Anonymous (Author), Alan Lupack (Translator)
from: The Camelot Project 2002
http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/arthurian-references-in-annales-cambriae

516. LXXII. Annus. Bellum Badonis, in quo Arthur portavit crucem Domini nostri Jesu Christi tribus diebus et tribus noctibus in humeros suos et Britones victores fuerunt.

516. The Battle of Badon, in which Arthur carried the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ for three days and three nights on his shoulders and the Britons were victors.

537. XCIII. Annus. Gueith Camlann, in qua Arthur et Medraut corruere; et mortalitas in Brittania et in Hibernia fuit.

537. The Battle of Camlann in which Arthur and Medraut fell, and there was devestation in Britain and in Ireland.


27 posted on 04/13/2014 10:35:06 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

None too good, this video, but the soundtrack is GREAT. Some interesting related vid links.

Oldbury (Near Atherstone) Warwickshire - King Artorius I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuWwdaTUvg


28 posted on 06/21/2014 3:07:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

http://web.archive.org/web/20090531033122/http://www.atherstonehistory.co.uk/atherstone/the-origins-of-atherstone


29 posted on 06/21/2014 3:30:10 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson