Posted on 01/15/2014 4:26:24 PM PST by Kevmo
where is the proof that atomic states below the ground state exist??
***Well, this isn’t proof, but it is strong evidence. I know Phil Payne and can ask him any question you might have about this paper.
http://www.blacklightpower.com//wp-content/uploads/papers/PayneOHRadical.pdf
asked & answered
-——————www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg85822.html-——————
As usual, your post shows an ignorance of the facts on the ground.
I have read the theoretical papers of LENR advocates. AND THEY ARE NONSENSE.
***I have posted multiple LENR theory papers on FR. You don’t seem to want to log onto those threads. If they’re nonsense, point out where the nonsense is. But you don’t even do that. Instead you just want to talk about Rossi all the time. And Rossi isn’t even a scientist, he’s just an engineer with a product he’s trying to bring to market.
Scientists have an obligation to point out to interested laymen and other scientists not necessarily schooled in a particular field when they are being scammed.
***I agree. Our taxpayers have been scammed for hundreds of $billions for the controlled-hot-fusion chimera. If 2% of that money were spent on LENR, we’d have flying cars by now.
If an astronomer were alerted to some astrological claim which purports to be “science” on FR, or a psychologist saw claims that ESP has been scientifically validated, their ethical obligation is to point out that this is nonsense, and to say why.
***Very admirable. So we would expect you, out of a sense of your own ethics, to have logged onto those many LENR theory threads I have posted. But do we see it? NO. Because you’re only really interested in staying on the bandwagon.
And when you do log onto threads, you can’t seem to get past freshman level logical fallacies in almost every post. How are we supposed to believe you have post grad physics training if you can’t even get past freshman level stuff?
In addition to doing that, I have also repeatedly provided citations from other scientists,
***Interesting. An indicator that you can’t stand on your own scientific training, but must rely on someone else, like a bandwagon joiner. Not that relying on other citations is wrong, it’s just an indicator, especially with you.
just in case you don’t believe me. This is the Internet. Anyone can claim to have a PhD. I don’t personally believe you have one, and I don’t personally believe that Kevmo has ever even taken a science course, let alone passed one.
***Well, since I know that I have an EE degree, and I can gauge your freshman level logical fallacies compared to post grad physics guys I know, I can pretty much assure myself that you are posing.
But credentials are irrelevant for the reason given; the quality of argument is all that matters here,
***Oh my gosh. This is just an amazing statement, coming from you. I would challenge you to post more than 3 times in a row without exercising a simple freshman level logical fallacy but you have never met this challenge before, so it’s useless. QUALITY OF ARGUMENT!!! Hah Hah HAH HAH you are so AMAZING.
and other than sloganeering you’ve never produced any.
***Where would you go to face down your logical fallacies against our arguments? Some place where if your arguments are found to be fallacious, they wouldn’t be removed, they would have be crossed out and labelled with the logical fallacy they represent. In your case, many of them would be S-t-r-a-w A-r-g-u-m-e-n-t-s.
Is that a drinking straw, or a plant stem straw?
The eigenstates of hydrogenic wavefunctions have been known for 90 years. The solutions are EXACT.
***According to Phil Payne, published PhD Chemist, the hydrino theory accounts for certain behaviors better than the current conventional theory. I know Dr. Payne personally, so if you have questions, feel free to send them over.
http://www.blacklightpower.com//wp-content/uploads/papers/PayneOHRadical.pdf
So, since I know a flesh&blood PhD who’s published something contrary to your assertions, and you continue to engage a tremendous number of freshman level logical fallacies, I will continue to along the path of this inductively proven result.
The eigenstates of hydrogenic wavefunctions have been known for 90 years. The solutions are EXACT.
***According to Phil Payne, published PhD Chemist, the hydrino theory accounts for certain behaviors better than the current conventional theory. I know Dr. Payne personally, so if you have questions, feel free to send them over.
http://www.blacklightpower.com//wp-content/uploads/papers/PayneOHRadical.pdf
So, since I know a flesh&blood PhD who’s published something contrary to your assertions, and you continue to engage a tremendous number of freshman level logical fallacies, I will continue to along the path of this inductively proven result.
Instead, you and Charlatan #1 jump around like a bunch of aborigines in war paint around a campfire screaming “Experiment Trumps Theory! Experiment Trumps Theory!” NO. IT DOESN’T.
***Yes. It does. The PF Anomalous Heat Event has been replicated more than 14,000 times, and that was before Rossi came onto the scene. Your ridiculous (and, quite frankly again, fallacious) example of the CERN finding was only ONE example. The fallacy is False Analogy.
and this is a key feature that you don’t seem to understand — we must also have a mechanism which explains this experimental result
***Again you are simply wrong. There is no currently accepted theory why we have seen high temperature superconductivity, directly contradicting current understandings of condensed matter. But that doesn’t mean the effect does not exist. Because experiment trumps theory.
The “absolute trumping” of theory is only valid science in very young fields when there is no previous experimental work held together by mutually supporting explanations.
***And LENR is a young science. So it fits your definition of where this absolute trumping occurs, just like in high temperature superconductivity.
***Your idea of science seems to involve a level of looking at who has joined the bandwagon so far and jumping in with the rest of them. This is troublingly immature and naïve for someone who claims to have post grad physics training. [And one of the reasons I don’t believe you do.]
Do you seriously believe that if an experimenter came up with a result that seemed to contradict the basics of atomic theory that every scientist in the world — including all but a handful of experimentalists would throw up their hands and say, “Well experiment trumps theory.
***That’s what happened with High Temperature Superconductivity, but it wasn’t really atomic theory that was contradicted. The difference is that there wasn’t an entrenched multi$billion industry threatened by HTS results, and there was soon a bandwagon to jump on. And guess where we find you? On the bandwagon.
And, after all, he only really required ordinary proof to overturn everything, according to Wonder Warthog, so ... OK. And even though he has nothing even so much as a sketch of how this works, we’ve got to erase all the blackboards... just because.”
***Your ignorance continues to drive you to polarize your arguments to the point of fallacy, because you included the horse laugh of “according to Wonder Warthog” and continued down the path of fallacy. Do you really have a post grad degree? You argue like a high school sophomore.
We have literally hundreds of thousands of experimental results which say that low energy nuclear reactions CAN NOT HAPPEN,
***Then maybe it’s a chemical reaction 5000x more efficient than any known chemical reaction.
How do you account for the 14000 replications for this anomalous event?
And they say that overcoming the Coulomb barrier does not, under any circumstances we understand, happen at low energies.
***Yet another straw argument. When 2 atoms fuse together, their energy release is not “low energy”, it is simply so diffused into the metal matrix that their energy is absorbed into the matrix and they generate heat. The difference between LENR and hot-fusion physics is that LENR takes place in a condensed matrix whereas the hot fusion stuff takes place in a plasma. Would you rather try to insert a poker into the ass of a crow when it’s flying around or would you rather do it when it is caged? That’s the difference. The energy level of insertion and resulting phonal output are the same whether he’s in a cage or flying around. So, like the crow, you can stick it up...
But, if Tweedledee and Tweedledum can outlast you on the thread, then LENR must be true.
That does seem to be the tactic. I especially like Tweedledumb's approach of taking some sentence fragment out of context and responding to it as if it were a complete thought. Although... I also get a few chuckles from his pointing at the same nonsensical calculation off site [with a bad href, no less] as if it proves something and saying "QED" or "asked and answered."
The technique of posting some tautology which no person with the IQ of a mollusk would bother to respond to as if it's a profundity his critic simply can't deal with apparently never gets old either.
"Experiment Trumps Theory Amen."
So given that Experiment Trumps Theory Amen®, I wonder why Kevmo has felt it necessary to post irrelevant pdf's about the theoretical energy of the molecular orbitals of hydroxyl ions as if they somehow, even peripherally, impinged on this discussion. Maybe he's afraid his increasingly unhinged diatribes about the fictional equivalence of power and energy will have left someone, somewhere, believing he understands basic electricity, so he's posting papers about Mills Grand Unified Fraud to remove all doubt. [For a hilarious discussion of Mill's "GUTCP," which includes the not very surprising observation that the only coherent parts of his book are plagiarized, see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackLight_Power under "Commentaries"]
Even so, the inclusion of a derivative of this dubious work is entirely irrelevant to the thread, even by LENR standards.
Now my professional ethics are called into question for having the impertinence to point out that Mills and Rossi are obvious con men, one of them convicted and sentenced for his [multiple] crimes, the other not yet boasting an orange jumpsuit for the simple reason that no one except Charlatan #1 has been dim enough to believe his nonsensical claims. [Strangely, even the moral paragon known affectionately to me as Charlatan #2 doesn't seem to have much regard for Mill's work. Even a broken clock...]
I shall never outlast them, but then, I don't intend to. As with every other vocation or avocation I've undertaken, I will only do this as long as it continues to be enjoyable.
"Experiment Trumps Theory Amen."
And until YOU have a workable theory which explains why we should overturn countless well established experiments by competent researchers, no one gives a sh!t about
***Then what the %^*$ is your problem? Just leave it alone. Instead, you pollute these threads with freshman level fallacies and insults. If you kept your comments to the science behind this phenomenon, we all would win. But you prefer the troll route.
some silly, badly reported,
***Badly reported? It is a suppressed science.
very problematically duplicated heat anomalies
***What a bunch of horse manure. If there are so many problems, point them out. You’ll have a lot of work shooting down 14000 replications. The experts in measurement error, the multi$billion company National Instruments, say this is not a measurement error. It is an anomaly. Even you say it is an anomaly.
in a handful of cases.
***HANDFUL? 14000 is a HANDFUL?
And simply rerunning those experiments doesn’t make them any more convincing, nor supply any explanation for why we should believe them.
***I think you got your science degree at a diploma mill. I’ll stick with Scientific Instruments.
In addition to which, your problem is compounded by the fact that BLP, Rossi, and many other cold fusion “researchers” are frauds and conmen. Rossi is a convicted tax cheat and conman.
***It’s acknowledged that Rossi is a tax fraud, not a convicted con man. BLP seems to have been selling vaporware, but he’s nowhere near the level of vaporware salesman that the hot-fusion boys are at, having sucked hundreds of $billions down a guvmint teat rathole. Since you have bragged about being on the guvmint teat, it is appropriate that you have joined that fraudulent bandwagon.
Now you're arguing that LENR doesn't actually happen at low energy. Geez, get a clue. Let me explain your own fraudulent theory to you: In order for charged nucleons to get close enough to release the binding energy of the strong nuclear force, they must be pushed together somehow, because the electromagnetic force to which they're also subjected is LONG RANGE. Overcoming the Coulomb barrier at low energies doesn't refer to the output binding energy, which is the same no matter how the nucleons get together. It refers to the energy required to push them through the electromagnetic repulsion.
And to answer an earlier statement: I, for one, don't believe you do have an EE degree. I don't think you've ever even taken a class in basic science, mathematics or engineering, let alone passed one. And the fact that you don't understand why it's called LENR is yet more evidence of that ignorance.
He is a convicted conman. I have posted the court’s sentence of two years and eight months and payment of restitution — for FRAUD — upthread to you. He’s a convicted con artist.
To this Kevmo replies that everybody cheats on their taxes, including thousands of FReepers. Sorry, BUT I DON’T cheat on my taxes,
***I know a guy at the IRS who can get you to sign over your house in the hopes that you will not get caught in tax fraud, even when you have been very careful in the past and didn’t think you were cheating.
and painting your fellow conservatives as criminals to defend one hoaxer isn’t going to get you any credibility or friends on this site.
***bragging about being on the guvmint teat for years aint gonna endear you to conservatives, either.
Kevmo also claims that Rossi never defrauded anyone but himself — WRONG. I’ve put up a link to the court record against Rossi.
***Bullshit. You posted some article from an anti-Rossi website. If it were so true, it would not have been removed from Wikipedia.
Charlatan #1’s response: Oh that’s from a biased source. No, it isn’t.
***It’s from Krivit, a well known anti-Rossi guy.
It’s from the Italian Court in which he was convicted and sentenced, reproduced in full on a web site he simply doesn’t like because it has fully documented all of Rossi’s crimes.
***Um, you posted a link to Krivit’s website, not to an italian court. If you expect pro-LENR guys to go to garbage Luddite websites, then you should have been thoroughly familiar with lenr-canr.org but your ignorance proves you haven’t been doing that. BTW, this is not a Rossi thread. With you it seems to be all Rossi, All the time.
Frankly, I’ll put my scientific ethics up against yours any time of the day, pal.
***You have none, so it’s easy to put them up as if they weighed anything.
People who post crap and then call everyone else names because they don’t have the science on their side are NOT going to get a pass from me.
***what an incredible level of bullshit. The name calling starts from the anti-LENR side. They never seem to dig into the science because they don’t have the background. When we do run across someone who CLAIMS to have the background, they seem to melt into a cacophany of insults and fallacies, just like you do.
99% of what Kevmo breathlessly posts — and you support — is complete drivel.
***Well, at least I get that 1%. I’ve never seen you post 3 times without at least one logical fallacy.
My only ethical lapse is that I only weigh in a small fraction of the time to refute this bilge.
***If only you spent such time actually reading the science and the facts, we all would be better off.
I should be on every thread denouncing you two scam artists,
***You’re the acknowledged scam artist here, having been on the guvmint teat. If you want to look at it as scam vs. scam, then why aren’t you loudly screaming about the hundreds of $billions lost on the hot-fusion scam? Because you’re a guvmint teat bandwagon joiner scam artist, just like they are.
but frankly, your constant name calling and ad hominem attacks, and the fact that in all of these years you haven’t yet produced a single clue
***I see dozens of clues with the FR keyword “cold fusion”. But since you only log onto a few threads and don’t bother to come up to speed on the facts, it is no wonder this is what you see.
as to how this stuff supposedly works,
***Is that your requirement for High Temperature Superconductivity, bandwagon boy?
or why it can’t be turned into practical energy are self-refuting,
***It’s 50 years ahead of hot-fusion, so by your argument controlled-hot-fusion is self refuting.
and I don’t even need to bother. When I do, it’s for the benefit of educable but naïve FReepers who think these press releases are “science.” They aren’t.
***Uh huh. So how about if we were to restrict ourselves to peer reviewed papers, you would throw out the finding of National Instruments who reviewed 150 of them and said there is no measurement error, it is an anomaly worth harnessing. Your “science” is pathological science.
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