Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter
War is Boring ^ | January 22, 2014 | David Axe

Posted on 01/22/2014 8:25:29 AM PST by C19fan

Russia’s new T-50 stealth fighter is fast, maneuverable, heavily-armed and hard to detect on radar. In theory.

But according to Indian air force officials, in practice the Sukhoi-made stealth jet is also too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines.

The Indians’ complaints illustrate the yawning gulf between stealth warplane design and the actual production of radar-evading jets. In other words, it’s one thing to sketch an advanced warplane on paper. It’s quite another to build one and get it to work.

(Excerpt) Read more at medium.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: aerospace; india; russia; stealth; stealthfighter; sukhoi; t50

1 posted on 01/22/2014 8:25:30 AM PST by C19fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: C19fan

ROLF , jokes on you


2 posted on 01/22/2014 8:26:55 AM PST by molson209 (Hillary Clinton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

“. . .in practice the Sukhoi-made stealth jet is also too expensive, poorly engineered and powered by old and unreliable engines.”

In other words, normal-normal for Russian aircraft of any make or design.


3 posted on 01/22/2014 8:27:20 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: molson209

Yeah, they should stick to their casinos.


4 posted on 01/22/2014 8:27:50 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Hulka

One would thing the Indians would of learned that lesson buying all the Russian crap since independence.


5 posted on 01/22/2014 8:27:59 AM PST by C19fan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

The Indians will end up just designing and building their own.


6 posted on 01/22/2014 8:29:00 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; me = independent conservative)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FReepers

Click The Pic To Donate

Support FR, Donate Monthly If You Can

7 posted on 01/22/2014 8:32:24 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule them all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

So, who do the Indians call for tech support?


8 posted on 01/22/2014 8:33:00 AM PST by red-dawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

You would think they had a brain, especially since they have bought American before (C-17). . .but apparently not.


9 posted on 01/22/2014 8:34:51 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Jack Hydrazine

Which will be as bad as the Russian design. . .after all, they would be copying a bad design.

I expect the Indians to get taken again when they buy production rights from the Russians so they can build their own.


10 posted on 01/22/2014 8:37:29 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

Just imagine what the Mahindra knock-off is going to look like.


11 posted on 01/22/2014 8:38:04 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan
All the same, Business Standard speculates that the Indian complaints could be somewhat politically motivated, as New Delhi is also planning to buy 126 new Rafale fighters from France for an eye-watering total price of $18 billion. Scrapping the T-50 could help India pay for the French jets.

Maybe the Indian brass are tired of buying Russian junk just to keep the special (India-Russia) relationship going. Holding weapons procurement hostage to foreign policy considerations can be painful if the gap in reliability/capability is too great.

12 posted on 01/22/2014 8:39:19 AM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

“The Indians’ complaints illustrate the yawning gulf between stealth warplane design and the actual production of radar-evading jets.”

This one had me totally baffled until I read:

“In other words, it’s one thing to sketch an advanced warplane on paper. It’s quite another to build one and get it to work.”


13 posted on 01/22/2014 8:52:57 AM PST by golux
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler

That’s funny right there...


14 posted on 01/22/2014 8:53:07 AM PST by neodad (USS Vincennes (CG-49) Freedom's Fortress)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Hulka

Yeah, they coulda had the F-35! LOL!!! ROTFLMAO!!!


15 posted on 01/22/2014 8:54:13 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Hulka
Which will be as bad as the Russian design. . .after all, they would be copying a bad design.

Do you actually know anything at all about the T-50 design? It appears to me that you do not.

16 posted on 01/22/2014 8:55:45 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Hulka; Kenny Bunk


So, who do the Indians call for tech support?



yakov smirnoff photo: Yakov Smirnoff 12229-2.jpg

In Soviet Russia, INDIANS call for Tech Support!
17 posted on 01/22/2014 9:01:00 AM PST by golux
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

Sounds like the Russians sold them the “monkey” version.

Well, they got a great air-frame. Just need to replace the avionics and engines and they’ll have a great plane.


18 posted on 01/22/2014 9:03:41 AM PST by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it getting so hot?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: red-dawg
So, who do the Indians call for tech support?

Peggy, duh Da!


19 posted on 01/22/2014 9:03:45 AM PST by null and void (We need to shake this snowglobe up.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

To paraphrase the article, you can draw a nice picture but building one is a completely different thing.

Their T-50 design is not DEEC and still has issues regarding low speed, high AOA throttle movement.

But I defer to your insight.


20 posted on 01/22/2014 9:04:39 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

At any speed it has issues regarding LO capabilities and drag and other such mundane things. . .


21 posted on 01/22/2014 9:06:37 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

Yeah, the F-35 is a piece of work, ain’t it.

F-22 is best, but of course, we all know the F-22 is prohibited from export due to its capabilities and design.


22 posted on 01/22/2014 9:07:41 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine
“Do you actually know anything at all about the T-50 design? It appears to me that you do not.”

Maybe Hulka was taking the entire picture into view. You could have the best aircraft “design”, yet it could be a failure because it is not easy to maintain, it is not reliable and it costs a lot more to sustain than as advertised. Sounds like the Indians are just learning that now. So, I'd agree that, while the design might be “good”, the overall systems engineering sounds like it is lacking.

23 posted on 01/22/2014 9:08:11 AM PST by Londo Molari
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

I seem to remember the F-22 having oscilation (design) problems during testing.


24 posted on 01/22/2014 9:16:54 AM PST by Mashood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Londo Molari

I doubt that the Indians could have any idea of the actual costs of maintenance and so on since the design is still not fixed, nor has a single Indian variant been produced. All I know is that every design is a result of compromise and the test is whether the design objectives AS SET have been met. On this standard, the F-35 has been an abject failure. Everyone has their own set of problems, us included.


25 posted on 01/22/2014 9:21:49 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Little Ray
Well, they got a great air-frame. Just need to replace the avionics and engines and they’ll have a great plane.

That is precisely the Indian's plan. The Indian version of the T-50 will be far more capable than the Russian version - by design.

26 posted on 01/22/2014 9:23:37 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Hulka

Sorry, but I don’t know the meaning of DEEC.

I thought this article (from the same source as the original post) was interesting.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/9edbae7da1ee


27 posted on 01/22/2014 9:26:46 AM PST by John Valentine (Deep in the Heart of Texas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

Oh my. The part about “fearsome new weapons” made me really nervous.


28 posted on 01/22/2014 9:33:18 AM PST by rlmorel ("A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral." A. Hamilton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

I wonder what the Clintons got for those blueprints.

29 posted on 01/22/2014 9:48:05 AM PST by fella ("As it was before Noah so shall it be again,")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan
it takes years to get out of that mindset

EVERYTHING in Russia used to be made “good enough for government work”, which, contrary to Al Gore's belief, is NOT an indication of high quality.

[I wish I knew who told AlGore the phrase “good enough for government work” meant ‘high quality’ in the first place- that person was probably laughing his ass off when AlGore used that phrase in a speech]

"Good enough for government work" is a humorous expression that used to be used in factories to indicate any old crap could be shipped off to government and you will still get paid. One place I know used to take the scrapped parts and put them in the 'government pile'.

30 posted on 01/22/2014 9:51:34 AM PST by Mr. K (If you like your constitution, you can keep it...Period.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mashood

Nearly every single weapons platform ever developed had teething issues.

There are a few cases where poorly designed hardware made it all the way into the hands of the people at the pointy end of the spear, and it worked so poorly that it was never used for the designed purpose.

Some were quietly relegated to purposes other than their primary one, and some were just dropped because technology was changing so fast that the next weapon in the pipeline just shouldered it aside with nary a peep from anyone.


31 posted on 01/22/2014 9:53:11 AM PST by rlmorel ("A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral." A. Hamilton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog
Just imagine what the Mahindra knock-off is going to look like.

I'll be bright red, have a retractable gun pod and have a disc harrow behind it.
32 posted on 01/22/2014 10:23:21 AM PST by 762X51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

Lol

Choices choices

a Ruskie fighter

Or a Mahindra tractor

Answer....neither

I will take me a crate of them there AK47S and a hunting license Mr Secretary

Or some of their babes

Or furs

Or oil

Diamonds

Wild Boar

Hey Russia has stuff of value...


33 posted on 01/22/2014 10:27:25 AM PST by wardaddy (wifey instructed me today to grow chapter president beard back again....i wonder why?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

“Everyone has their own set of problems, us included.”

Yes, I didn’t say we didn’t have our problems. However, the Indian customer is not happy with the Russian designed aircraft. Why — in their opinion, it is a poor design. Is it really? I don’t know, but if it doesn’t meet its design goals for its customer, it is a problemed design.
If the design is “great” and meets its design objectives “AS SET”, maybe the Russians did a very poor job at managing customer expections for the T-50. Maybe they forgot to tell the Indians that the Mean Time Between Failure for the engines was short, while the Indians expected a longer time. Maybe they forgot to mention maintenance would cost 10x what it costs for a Su27.

Bottom line, the customer (India) is very unhappy with the design so, in their eyes, it is a poor design.


34 posted on 01/22/2014 10:38:54 AM PST by Londo Molari
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: John Valentine

Interesting but fundamentally flawd in many areas.

For example, saying “For attacking ground targets the F-22 and F-35 rely on a 500-pound, winged guided bomb that can glide up to 60 miles under optimal conditions.”

That is rubbish and an amateurish error.

The JDAM is 500lbs and fins to track via satellite guidance to the target, whereas the SDB-I/II are 250lbs and those are the ones with wings and can fly out to a classified distance with outstanding accuracy.

Tactics the article was talking about (head-on only) are just that, tactics that if we wished to do the same, and under some circumstances, we could and would.

Oh, reference to DEEC, Digital Electronic Engine Control gives a quantum leap in engine use and control by the pilot. . .without worrying about compressor stalls. While it has some level of DEEC, it does not have a true DEEC capability that permits full use during no-kidding A/A fights.

Anyway, off to do stuff.


35 posted on 01/22/2014 11:59:07 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Londo Molari

Thanks Lando.

Well stated.


36 posted on 01/22/2014 11:59:43 AM PST by Hulka
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

37 posted on 01/22/2014 12:06:57 PM PST by JRios1968 (I'm guttery and trashy, with a hint of lemon. - Laz)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: golux
Is quite simple.

If engine is to quit, shut down all systems, turn off power at surge strip. Then, simply restart.

WARNING: Please to make sure at altitude of 25 thousand meters before such restart operation attempt you, as can take many minutes. Below of such altitude, Prepare to activiation of Big RED Button says, "OUT-PUNCH" ... but before NYET activiatzion "GSAS" (Grammar School Avoidance System. Is wooden handle on right next to knee.) If equipped with the HAVS (Hospital Avoidance System) also pull other lever, ONLY if your model so equipeded. Then notify Help Center East Vladivostock. At time of completion you may hit "OUT PUNCH" to exit aircraft, if equipped with optional rejection seat group.

N.B.: Help Center may be closed on Russian Orthodox Holidays.

38 posted on 01/22/2014 12:36:34 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: golux

One hopes (prays actually) that Indian Air Force Maintenance is better than Indian Motel Maintenance.


39 posted on 01/22/2014 12:38:00 PM PST by Kenny Bunk (This GOP is dead. What do we do now?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

IMHO, this plane is still a prototype and right now I think Indians are starting it to shake down discounts.
Their main concerns is all about engines which are still in design phase and aren’t even behind shedule.
6 billion is not too much for a technology like that. If I were Sukhoi I could have been seek partners elsewhere, including banks and own government.


40 posted on 01/22/2014 5:27:07 PM PST by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: C19fan

They cant hate Russian Stealth plane. They dont have it yet. So...


41 posted on 01/23/2014 4:52:45 PM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...
Whoops. Thanks C19fan.
42 posted on 01/26/2014 5:21:42 PM PST by SunkenCiv (;http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson