Is anybody watching the History Channel's Revelation: The End of Days?

Me: Matthew 24, how many “tribulations” does Jesus mention?

You: It does not seem possible that he could only be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

But i will not go as far as trying to set a point where he went from the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the world.

Tribulation 1:

“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9

This isn’t the first time Jesus told His disciples this:

“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. “You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:21-23

And to whom does Jesus lay the blame for this tribulation? He repeats this prophecy to an extended audience in Matthew 23:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’

“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Matthew 23:29-37

Not two verses later, Jesus mentions the second tribulation of Matthew 24 to which He alluded in the passage cited above:

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Matthew 24:1-2

Everything that follows is set in this context: the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. It’s in this context we see His second use of the word “tribulation” in Matthew 24:

“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Matthew 24:15-22

Further proof that this passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem can be found in the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke:

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20-22

Rome’s legions are the armies that would surround Jerusalem, and its these legions that are referred to in Matthew 24 as the “abomination of desolation”, which literally means, “hated thing that causes destruction.”

When taken together, Matthew 24:9 (first tribulation) is the persecution of Christ’s apostles and the churches they planted at the hands of first, the Jews and only much later, at the hand of Nero. This “tribulation” is both a cause (Matthew 23) and a sign (Matthew 24) of the “great tribulation” that would befall Jerusalem in the destruction of its Temple and city.

So, when you read Revelation, the first 7 chapters deal with the persecution of the apostles and believers. Those under the altar in Revelation 6 are those that have died under this persecution. Chapters 8-20 deal with the judgment and destruction of Jerusalem as a result of its persecution of Christ’s apostles (His messengers) and the church.

When you study the Olivet Discourse and Revelation closely, they are structured the same way: tribulation/persecution of apostles first, great tribulation of Jerusalem second.

This, by the way, was not the first time Jerusalem and its Temple was destroyed by God for its persecution of His messengers (but it would be the last).

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.

All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.

Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete. 2 Chronicles 36:15-21

See anything familiar when comparing 2 Chronicles 36 with Matthew 23?

In closing, how did John address his audience in Revelation 1?

I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 1:9

John does not partake of the modern church’s tribulation, but he was right in the thick of it with them in 68 AD, when he penned these words.

Just something to think about.

I don`t see any big things to disagree with, looks like it all makes sense.

I believe the killing of the son of God was the abomination that brought desolation.

The Roman soldiers are the tool that was used for the desolation but what could be any more of an abomination than murdering Gods only begotten son.

So, when you read Revelation, the first 7 chapters deal with the persecution of the apostles and believers.>>>>>>>

I would say the first 8 verses of Rev 7 was fulfilled at that time or before, but then we read again in chapter 12 things that were happening at that time.

Rev 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We know this happened when Jesus was resurrected, and since he was the firstfruits of many I have no doubt that the 144000 went with him.

Rev 14
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

1Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

So yes I would agree all of this happened, even before John was told to write to the Churches.

Thanks for the input.

“I believe the killing of the son of God was the abomination that brought desolation.”

Remember, though, that Matthew is referring to the prophet Daniel when he records Jesus as having said this.

Daniel’s reference to the “abomination of desolation” is very specific, and relates to another army that had sacked Jerusalem, pillaged its temple, and caused great destruction and loss of life (though not on the scale of either the Babylonian or Roman conquests).

Daniel refers to the Seleucid armies of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, which was made up of Greek and Syrian troops.

Interestingly, many of the eastern legions of Rome were also composed of Syrian troops. But that’s another bit of evidence to support the 68 AD writing of Revelation (the 10 kings who give their support to the beast: it’s a thinly veiled reference to the Decapolis. But I digress.)

Luke explains plainly what Matthew assumes his reader will understand, which is why - when trying to understand Revelation - it’s important to take all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse together. They all bring clarity to John’s full prophetic voice.

I only mention this because it’s these little details that - if not closely heeded - can divert your course from getting to the correct understanding of apostolic eschatology.

On a closing note, it’s impossible to decipher a book like Revelation, which is so heavily imbued with Jewish symbolism, without constantly referring back to the OT. Case in point:

BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7

Many, many people assume this verse refers to a global audience, yet this verse is quoted almost word-for-word from Zechariah 12, which provides the context for it:

“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. “In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. “The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

Clearly, Revelation 1:7, and its parallel passage in Matthew 24:30, is a reference to the land of Israel generally, and Jerusalem specifically. And this is completely consistent with Christ’s prophetic words in Matthew 23, 24, and 25.

This is why those who try to interpret the book of Revelation by today’s headlines rather than using traditional exegetical methods will never understand it.

Headlines change. The Word of God doesn’t. ;)

Thanks for the discussion.

There was a bodily resurrection that happened when Christ arose. This is recorded in Matthew 27:52-53. This is the first resurrection: the so-called “first fruits.”

However, there was a second resurrection to judgment (Daniel 12, Matthew 25, Revelation 20) that happened at Christ’s parousia in 70 AD. This was not a bodily resurrection but a spiritual one.

Those raised with Christ in the first were the righteous that had died up to the point when He was raised.

Those raised at the judgment of Israel were the righteous and unrighteous that had died after His resurrection, and this resurrection was to judgment.

The point of this is that once you die now, your soul does not sleep in the ground or go to Sheol/Hades to wait for a third resurrection. Instead, as Paul so elegantly and succinctly puts it in 2 Corinthians 5, those who die in Christ go immediately to be with the Father, whereupon they receive the new heavenly body He has waiting for them.

The problem with Futurism is that it demands a physical resurrection wherein your dead flesh, rotting in the grave, is transformed into eternal flesh destined to live on a perfected earth for all eternity. (Jehovah’s Witnesses teach this, too.)

That is not what Paul taught. In fact, he specifically wrote that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.”

Our “kingdom inheritance” is with Christ in heaven, where He has been reigning since He put His enemies beneath His feet. The gift of the Holy Spirit in these temporary “temples” of flesh, as Paul taught, is the seal on the promise Christ made of our heavenly inheritance.

Everything prophetic not completed on the cross was completed at Christ’s parousia, and that is what Luke writes in chapter 21 of his gospel. The fact that the resurrection was to take place at the final judgment of Israel, Jerusalem, and the generation that crucified Christ and persecuted, to death, His apostles, is born out in Daniel 12 and Revelation 22:

“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” Daniel 12:2-4

And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10

Daniel was writing of a “time of the end” that was still afar off, and so was told to seal his book.

John was writing of this same “time of the end” that God told him to tell the churches was near.

Daniel and Jesus both put the resurrection in this “time of the end” that John wrote “is near.”

God knew the day and the hour and told John to write the churches that it was near. This is why I left the Futurist camp: to believe that Revelation was written to us requires adherents to that particular doctrine to ignore what it actually says.

Hope that addresses your question.

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