Posted on 01/06/2015 8:52:24 AM PST by C19fan
Chainmail, When the Marines first went into Afghanistan, we started to get inquires regarding a “Flame Capable” weapons system. Initially, the need was identified to get those Taliban Rats our of the caves they were hiding in. We convened a test at 29 Palms to determine what system would work best. HQMC actually rounded up a couple of M2A2’s for the test. Obviously they did poorly when matched against modern Thermobaric weapons. Although it was fun shooting the M2A2, it only reinforced out respect for those brave souls who carried it through WWII.
The two weapons that performed great were the Panzer-Faust and the SMAW-Thermobaric. Since we already owned the SMAW, we ordered the rounds from Talley Defense.
Guys those Shoulder Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon, SMAW-NE “Novel Explosive” rounds are incredible and they will eliminate anyone in a building, cave or bunker upon impact.
Terry L Walker
Marine Gunner CWO5
USMC Retired
“Stoner MADE a piston drive prior to the AR”
And when he got around to making the AR, he decided against using it - I trust he’d do so for good reason.
“We are a nation of firearms expertise - we can do better.”
As noted prior, that’s been practically outlawed.
Improving full-auto requires a market big enough to fund & motivate such innovation. Alas, 922(o) prohibits citizens from having anything newer than 1986, so there’s no market willing to buy & try such new equipment.
Overturn 922(o) and we’ll see a flurry of fantastic new designs.
That was it. Not a subject I’ve mulled over recently.
“...he decided against using it - I trust he’d do so for good reason....”
And he did this one too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armalite_AR-18
Which had a gas piston.
Actually, I had the time line wrong (my apologies); the AR direct impingement came right before the piston-drive Stoner 63. So he tried a course correction, evidently.
The Army needs to discard the 5.56. I remember when they introduced it. Too many Urban Commandos couldn’t qualify with a man’s cartridge, the 7.62x51.
I have probably fired as many 7.62x39, 7.62x51, and 5.56 as anyone on here. The AK is a fine short range rifle, but isn’t in the same class as an AR in accuracy. The real question is, would you rather carry an 8 pound rifle with 200 rounds of ammo, or a 10 pound M14 with 70? In my quite humble opinion, the M14 is an overweight, clumsy handling rifle that shoots a fine cartridge. There is also a good reason why they don’t issue full auto weapons and it isn’t the machine gun ban. I have fired full auto rifles in 7.62, and it is a glorious uncontrollable waste of ammunition suitable only for cover fire.
The military used many 7.62 AR10’s in the middle east, as a longer range option. In other words, I’d rather have 200 rounds of ammo, a 5.56, and body armor for the same weight of a M14, 70 rounds and no armor, thank you!
I have a military quality AR that has had approx 4000 rounds, mostly my handloads through it, 0 malfunctions, it will keep all its shots in a 2.5 inch group at 200 yards. My AK is a custom, and a nice rifle, it is in my bedroom as we speak along with 6-30’s. It has had the same number (roughly) of rounds though it and no malfunctions. It will shoot the same group at 100 yards as the AR at 200. Current models are not the original Viet Nam era M16’s so forget about those horror stories.
I also have a habit of shooting and hunting in Africa with a .416 Rigby which I think qualifies as a man’s cartridge.
Wish I could’ve watched those tests Gunner! Agree that thermobaric/fuel air explosive weapons are the coolest thing this side of nukes - but I still think the flamethrower’s superb in urban combat. I think I mentioned that we used to use the flame to screen street/fire lane crossings. The other plus to the flamethrower was that it didn’t totally demolish structures - it just eliminated enemy firing positions and terrified the opposition.
I’m a bit old school, I guess...
Semper Fi
Chainmail
My concern is the motive that drove the change. Were they looking for a more effective round and happened on components that were "green," or were they told to make a green round and things just worked out well for the troops this time?
You are incorrect about the combat load with the M-14: I carried 7 loaded magazine plus one in the weapon for 160 rounds. (also carried two to four frags and occasionally a LAW, two canteens, K-Bar, med kit and plenty of body armor.). After a certain amount of physical conditioning, anybody can. The critical part of the M-14 is that always worked, every time no matter what the conditions were and when you hit somebody, they stayed down.
As I said to an army buddy at the time when he told me that the M-14 was "too heavy for Vietnam", all he had to do was ask and we would have sent him "a big strong Marine to hold his M-14 up for him".
The latter.
Guaranteed.
Sure.
The latter. Guaranteed.
From The American Rifleman:
"The M855A1 cartridge is actually the Army’s fourth version of a lead-free 5.56 mm projectile, capping a 15-year effort that quite likely consumed $100 million. The program began in 1995 as the Joint Service Non-Toxic Ammunition Working Group, established by the Army’s Armament Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC) and funded through the Army’s Environmental Center." Link
Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders finally got her "safer bullets" after all.
Fired a bunch of “all of the above” myself.
My guess is that with no “new war” starting combined with the budget situation (meaning the military will suck hind t@# to every social program out there), I don’t see re-equipping the force with a new weapons platform.
For most people (the ones who don’t and will never go outside the wire), it doesn’t matter what they carry.
For those that do (and I humbly include myself in this group), we were issued at least 1 M-14 per squad, and in the semi-urban areas of Iraq we were operating in this was fine since we for the most part wanted a short weapon for build-up areas.
One other note - before we deployed, we had the M16A2. Once we were tapped to go, we got new M4’s, M16A4’s for Designated Marksmen, and M14’s where needed, all with optics.
We really did not feel under-armed.
Environmentally friendly bullets. Non toxic, and kill humans more reliably.
Methinks: They were told to make a green round, then - after making one - told it would go nowhere if it didn’t actually perform significantly better.
God created men; Sam Colt made them all equal.
Why, oh why, would they waste time, money and effort on a tungsten-based bullet given that "there was no tungsten in the U.S. strategic stockpile, and the bullets, alone, would have accounted for the Western Hemisphere’s entire annual output. The world’s largest tungsten producer—China, which accounts for 88 percent—could not be relied upon in wartime."
A valid question, but not pertinent to the platform that fires it
And yet, I ask it just the same.
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