Posted on 01/06/2015 8:52:24 AM PST by C19fan
Heart-warming I'm sure for the different levels of Army Materiel Command but not at all reassuring for the men going "outside the wire".
I was assigned to the Joint Service Small Arms Program (JSSAP) some time ago and I remember all of the scurrilous gyrations they went through to "prove" that the 9mm was far more devastating than the .45. Integrity isn't part of the process in today's Pentagon.
They actually don’t explode in a big ball of fire when they’re hit. Still, a bullet doesn’t have to make anything on you explode to kill you, and those tanks still make you a big, slow-moving target.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlamethrowerBackfire
My point, which some didn’t get, is that the M16 from the Vietnam era isn’t the same rifle issued today. I also was comparing ammo weight, I have no idea what the amount of ammo carried with an M14 was. 160 rounds of 7.62 will weigh about the same as 350-400 5.56mm. I am young enough to have missed Vietnam, but old enough I went through college with a bunch of vets, and am well aware of the many problems it had originally. The current models are pretty well proven weapons. I appreciate your service as well, I lost a cousin (Army Airborne) in Vietnam, and a nephew in Iraq (Marine), have two brothers in law and a sister in law that are Marines, dad was in the Air Force, another nephew in the Air Force, two brothers and two uncles in law enforcement, so have more than my range time experience regarding current M4’s. The current models are pretty decent weapons, versatile, optics ready and modular as well.
The article was written in August. Anyone figure out who the maker is?
Well, as mentioned above, this guy did real-world tests on it and concluded it is in fact better: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/testing-army-m855a1-standard-ball-cartridge
I’d do my own tests if/when I can get my grubby little hands on a case of the stuff.
I’m eager to see your real-world tests showing it sucks as bad as you indicate.
Yes, that would have been one of McNamara's "whiz kids" in the Pentagon, micromanaging the war in Vietnam because they (aforementioned whiz kids, that is) were the really smart people, and everyone else was a bunch of f'n idiots who didn't know anything about cost-benefit analysis, etc.
Just sayin'.
At some point, however they started and progressed, they eventually got to some military leaders who imposed real-world limitations: must be affordable, must be practical at ten-orders-of-magnitude scale, must be reliable, and must kill actual enemy combatants better than any prior 5.56 round; "environmentally friendly" isn't enough, and sacrificing our soldiers for it is intolerable.
Result was a "green" bullet that doesn't use tungsten.
“...bullet doesn’t have to make anything on you explode to kill you...”
Yeah, that was my point. Every rifle and MG in the vicinity is looking to put you down when you have that on your back. The ball of fire wasn’t the focus of my comment - it’s the volume of incoming that the flamethrower guy would see.
Once again, we get what I’ll assume are unintended consequences:
Having demanded the military switch to a lead-free bullet on the grounds of “environmentally friendly” for the presumed ulterior motive of hampering firearms in general, expecting the result be some anemic thing, it actually gave the military the rare imperative to actually improve over the problematic-but-obligatory 1970’s standard round. The Left’s manipulation of “green” to push thru other agendas resulted in not just more deadly ammunition, but a whole new product category the general public will soon be clamoring for in vast quantities: many/most private buyers having satiated their psychological limit on stockpiling, there emerges a NEW! IMPROVED! DEADLIER! bullet, which will inspire public demand which will saturate the supply for a decade to come (you’d buy a case or ten, right?).
Occurs to me too: the new design may lend itself to something that will terrify the Left - homemade bullets. I’ve looked into it before, and making your own lead-core projectiles is possible...but there’s just something about working with lead that’s off-putting (imprecision of soft lead, health hazard, etc). BUT...looking at the new design, the word “lathe” comes to mind: steel & copper can be worked at home in a more appealing fashion, milling bar stock to shape and swaging the slugs into a complete bullet. Heck, someone could make a rather affordable machine dedicated to milling small steel & copper blocks to shape, and assembling the three non-toxic parts. From there, it’s just standard reloading (case & primer changes being desirable but of diminishing returns).
My aforementioned “home bullet-making machine” is inspired & motivated in large part from the fact that we serfs won’t be seeing much supply at all to satisfy our instant huge demand. The military will be the first customer, demanding more than the manufacturers can supply for years. Unable to buy a box (much less a case or pallet) today or next year, someone will realize we’ll gladly plunk down the price of a couple cases to start making our own from raw materials. Kickstarter, anyone?
I’m guessing it was the ADCOR. It seems to be the only one with a unique design. The newer “green” ammo seems to be a hotter round that might not do as well with the more conventional rifles.
In early 2010, Adcor sent the ADCOR A-556 rifle to H.P. White Laboratory, known for small arms and ammunition research, development, and testing, to test the reliability of the design. Testing took place from March to April. 6,000 rounds were fired in 120 round cycles, and the guns were lubricated and allowed to cool after 600 round intervals. During the tests, no parts had to be replaced and there were no jams, stoppages, or malfunctions of any kind. Following this, the A-556 was able to shoot a .88 MOA group at 100 yards with 69-grain match ammo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Enhanced_Automatic_Rifle
Thanks. Checking it out now.
The the penetration qualities against steel plate and concrete.
I spoke to a man yesterday whos' son is a Ranger in Afghanistan.
The boy swears the one shot kills are GRUESOME.
It's the only ball ammo he's ever known, and the M4 is the only "rifle" he's ever known.
He simply loves it.
How can gas cycle the piston without touching the barrel?
Not sure I get that part, but otherwise it looks pretty good.
I don’t know either...must be their “new” technology.
Chainmail, the cool thing about Thermobaric is they don’t do a lot of collateral damage and they don’t set the whole block of building on fire. The heat is instantaneous and they can be fired at 350 meters from the target.
The M2A2 only had a range of about 20-40 meters and the flame only lasted for less than 30 seconds. Getting within range to use the weapon killed it, coupled with the bursting hazards of the fuel on your back.
Semper Fi Brother!
That isn't to say that the thermobarics aren't excellent weapons and absolutely necessary - but it's apples and oranges as far as tactical applications go. I volunteered to take some over to Fallujah and train Marines to operate and sustain them but they weren't interested in old washed-up flame operators... Ah well.
Very proud of your efforts to improve our Marine's weaponry and capabilities - hope you're still at it - we need people like you (and big budgets)
Semper Fi Gunner!
There are many new weapons and calibers that have built on those lessons learned, yet the army (civilians, many of who never served in uniform) at Picatinny, Aberdeen, and Benning stubbornly block any and all new systems - other than that weird and useless 25mm monster.
Having more rounds is a good thing but not everthing. The heavier and lengthier weapon I carried didn't need as many rounds because it was designed for aimed fire, not "spray and pray". And despite all of the silly propaganda by the whiz kids, the 5.56 round doesn't penetrate obstructions well, doesn't buck side winds well and loses energy rapidly as the range increases. Even though 7.62 was more punishing to carry and to fire, I knew that it would always fire - always - and it would hit what I was aiming at and what I hit stayed down.
I was one of those hit in Vietnam and as I was lying there putting on a tourniquet and waiting for my medevac, my lieutenant came crawling up to me and said "Rick, I'm really sorry you're hurt - but can I have your M-14?".
We need a new generation weapon that is more reliable, harder-hitting, precise as a sniper rifle, and utterly impervious to filth, sand, salt water. The Kalashnikov series of weapons are famous for that kind of reliability - can't we do better than an uneducated tank sergeant?
Semper Fi
“Too many Urban Commandos couldn’t qualify with a man’s cartridge, the 7.62x51.”
Maybe I should have gone into the Marine corps instead of the Navy. We got one trip to the firing range at San Diego, forty practice rounds in a Garand 30.06 and then forty rounds to qualify at 200 yards with iron sights. I was less than a month past my 18th birthday and I was one of four or five out of sixty men who qualified. I had never fired a rifle bigger than .22 rimfire before that and only bolt action. The last 16 rounds were rapid fire prone, I put 15 of 16 in the bull’s eye and had plenty of my allotted time left to shake my head and wonder how I managed to do it. Must have been an angel on my shoulder because I remember feeling as nervous as you could ever imagine the whole time. When the instructor told me how many seconds I was allowed for that last 16 rounds it sounded impossible but I don’t think I used even half of that time. I never had a chance to fire a weapon again during my hitch though, it was all technical from there on, no fun stuff.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.