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How the English language became such a mess
BBC ^ | 9 June 2015 | James Harbeck

Posted on 06/15/2015 1:44:50 AM PDT by Cronos

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To: SES1066
Teaching kids in Australia can be interesting because Australian English differs in some ways from both British and American English (though not as dramatically as those two differ from each other). We're generally told as teachers that we should tend towards British spelling, and teach that as the standard approach to spelling, but that American spelling should be accepted as perfectly valid.

So I write 'colour', and if a boy asked me how to spell it would spell it that way - but if he hands up an essay with it spelt 'color', I would not penalise him as having spelled the word incorrectly.

There is, I think, a growing class divide in Australia, between British and American spelling - British spelling is more prestigious in most contexts, and sends a subtle message that a person had a 'higher quality' education by Australian standards, while American spellings tend to be seen in the opposite way. It's even more pronounced when it comes to the use of different words, with a conservative backlash (and I'm saying that as a conservative) towards anything seen as an 'Americanism' - a local news site just yesterday referred to the idea of "Grabbing take-out and sitting down to watch television" and I knew immediately the following discussion would include numerous people saying "In Australia we say 'take-away' not 'take-out'."

21 posted on 06/15/2015 5:19:36 AM PDT by naturalman1975 ("America was under attack. Australia was immediately there to help." - John Winston Howard)
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To: SES1066

Yay!


22 posted on 06/15/2015 5:21:06 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: Chickensoup

Me too...
And with English, you don’t have to worry about masculine and feminine agreement...kind of a “gay” friendly language, yes?


23 posted on 06/15/2015 5:22:39 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: Sherman Logan

Years ago, a friend told me the reason we didn’t have a special name for chicken flesh, much like beef, pork, and venison, was because the Normans didn’t eat it.


24 posted on 06/15/2015 5:23:23 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: SES1066

“Centre” is the result of the French influence, non?


25 posted on 06/15/2015 5:24:34 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: Cronos

“There are even places where English completely disappears.
Over in America they haven’t used it for years!”


26 posted on 06/15/2015 5:27:42 AM PDT by sima_yi ( Reporting live from the far North)
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To: Cronos

Etymology is interesting and all but I was distracted by the graphic thusly titled:Copper engraving after a late 16th-Century image of Dutch typesetters (Credit: Alamy)

The VERY well dressed typesetter in the center-left foreground is wearing a large sheathed knife at his waist and there is a BIG fighting sword propped against the front of his station. THAT office seemed to be expecting trouble.


27 posted on 06/15/2015 5:28:47 AM PDT by TalBlack (Evil doesn't have a day job...)
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To: Cronos
A few years ago, Discovery Channel showed a documentary about the construction of a very large, new icebreaker (ship). She was being built in a South Korean shipyard, with some modules provided by shipyards in Finland, France, and Japan, for a Russian customer.

The official language for the project was ...

...

...

ENGLISH.

Fie on the doofuses (doofi?) who proclaim English to be a "mess".

28 posted on 06/15/2015 5:29:04 AM PDT by NorthMountain ("The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things")
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To: Cronos

You know when we are screwed when a majority of our imbecilic youth believe that z’s and s’s are interchangeable.


29 posted on 06/15/2015 5:30:10 AM PDT by catfish1957 (Everything I needed to know about Islam was written on 11 Sep 2001)
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To: Cronos

There are few languages on earth as rich as English and as powerful in their ability to create an image. Confusing? Yes. So is calculus. But without them,we couldn’t reach the stars.


30 posted on 06/15/2015 5:35:34 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: Cronos
Yes modern English is a mongrel tongue, but unlike many other languages it is flexible and can adapt to changing times. For example, there is no real French word for weekend and the French have adopted the English word, le weekend much to the cagrin of French language purists.
31 posted on 06/15/2015 5:42:43 AM PDT by The Great RJ (“Socialists are happy until they run out of other people's money.” Margaret Thatcher)
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To: matginzac
Amazing that we still live with the effects of what the Bastard of Normandy wrought in 1066....

Assume you are aware that today is the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta and Thursday is the 200th of Waterloo? Almost every one of the of the significant persons involved in the former were descendants of William and his followers with John Lackland, the g-g-grandson of William the Conqueror (NB: French derivation).

You can see my thoughts on the significance of this event by my FR handle. Poor Harold, he fought off one invasion only to 'almost' win the second, except there is no second place in war!

32 posted on 06/15/2015 5:49:41 AM PDT by SES1066 (Quality, Speed or Economical - Any 2 of 3 except in government - 1 at best but never #3!)
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To: Cronos

Good point. One reason hearing Shakespeare in its OP (original pronunciation) form is so fascinating is that you have a snapshot of the great vowel shift in progress. Many rhymes and puns are uncovered that were lost when English pronunciation evolved to the current form.


33 posted on 06/15/2015 6:09:33 AM PDT by Demiurge2 (Define your terms!)
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To: SES1066

Take two, too and to or there and their! For spelling, take the “I before E except after C” and then spell ‘Wierd!’ I can site many examples where spell-check will leave you in tiers!

_______________

this is what requires English users to use higher abstract skills. Good for the brain. And that ain’t nothin’ compared to formal Chinese symbols.


34 posted on 06/15/2015 6:11:48 AM PDT by Chickensoup (Leftist totalitarian fascism is on the move.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Fairly obviously, I thought I had typed Norman, not Normal.

I think auto-complete got me again.

Though Normal soldiers do want to have sex with the barmaids.


35 posted on 06/15/2015 6:14:26 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: SES1066

I am very much aware of today’s anniversary of this seminal event in history as I started a thread earlier in the month, posting the article written in the WSJ by Daniel Hannan (?) about said event.
The Battle of Waterloo is also of interest though more on the French side of things as one of Napoleon’s generals, Gen. Maximilian Foy, has the same last name of my family though, I believe, we are not related. Good thing too because he didn’t help old Boney very much in the battle.


36 posted on 06/15/2015 6:16:42 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: Oratam

May be true.

None of the poultry. Though I suspect “poultry” is French.


37 posted on 06/15/2015 6:17:11 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: NorthMountain

When India became independent, they wanted to reject English as the language of the imperial oppressor.

Problem was, that meant adopting one of the native languages as “official,” which would make all the others “unofficial” and second-class. Uproar including riots promptly broke out.

Now that some decades have passed, Indians of different languages can use English between them as a completely neutral language. It is gaining popularity all the time as a prestige language.

However, Indian English sometimes bears only a dubious relationship to that spoken by Englishmen and Americans.


38 posted on 06/15/2015 6:20:46 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: naturalman1975

It’s rather illuminating to see how that in many countries, particularly Britain, but even in the USA, the way you speak; pronunciation, grammar and inflection, can affect how people categorize you in society.
One of the most amazing examples to me of how the UK has evolved recently from adhering to this stigmatism is listening to Lord Sugar, a multi- millionaire who hangs with the Queen as well as other aristos. His accent is very “low class” and atrocious!


39 posted on 06/15/2015 6:28:08 AM PDT by matginzac
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To: TalBlack

Probably just what a well-dressed guy needed to protect himself getting back and forth to work.

Something people seldom realize is how violent past times were. The average across Europe in the 14th and 15th centuries was higher violence than the most violent cities in America today, and right up there with the Central American countries that today have the highest murder rate.


40 posted on 06/15/2015 6:29:29 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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