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Samsung wows investors with futuristic tech that Apple's iPhone is already delivering
Apple Insider ^ | November 20, 2015 | Daniel Eran Dilger

Posted on 11/21/2015 5:29:56 PM PST by Swordmaker

Speaking at Samsung Electronics' 2015 Investors Forum, a series of company executives spent hours saying very little, while talking about "innovations" such as phase detection Focus Pixels and camera sensor Deep Trench Isolation that iPhones already have.


Source: Samsung

Samsung will "lead by following" Apple Watch



Samsung LSI marketing team head Kyushu Hong spoke at length about "Innovation for the next mobile experience," outlining plans to introduce a "Bio Processor" chip that packed a series of components related to health related data recording.


Source: Samsung

Asked when the new chip would be introduced and when Samsung expected it to become a meaningful revenue generator, Hong stated that it was expected to ship early next year and might be used in some kind of band or other product focusing on activity, not necessarily from Samsung.


Source: Samsung


Source: Samsung

And while his presentation discussed "wearable device trend" and the potential of wearables to grow dramatically in shipment volumes, there was no discussion of how Samsung was actually performing in the smartwatch category it largely introduced, before partnering with Google on Android Wear and then going solo with its own Tizen-based Gear watches, all without achieving any success along the way, before being steamrolled by the arrival of Apple Watch.

At the same time, the "trends" Samsung identified for wearable devices included authentication and payment, features Samsung's Galaxy Gear models continue to lack. Apple Watch introduced Apple Pay last fall, but the company's own new "Samsung Pay" is a feature still confined to Samsung's phones.

The primary unique "feature" Samsung added to its watches that Apple didn't was a small, low quality 1.9 MP camera, which gave it a creepy voyeur-vibe reminiscent of Google Glass while failing to capture images of any useful quality.

Samsung's Galaxy Gear lineup hasn't attract many buyers. Instead, the watch ended up with Best Buy seeing more than 30 percent of its sales being returned by unsatisfied customers, according to a report by Ars.

Samsung unveils some existing camera technology



Focusing next on photography as a feature of smartphones, Hong introduced "fast and accurate auto focus" using phase detection. Apple calls this "Focus Pixels," and introduced it last year as a feature of iPhone 6 (using sensors developed by Sony). While much attention is devoted to imaging how Apple's innovations and technologies will be commodified by Android, the reverse actually seems to be happening

Samsung had earlier introduced phase detection autofocus in its Galaxy S5, but its speed to market didn't change the fact that the S5 was outsold by Apple's iPhone 5s models without the feature. iPhone 6, with Focus Pixels of its own, further trounced the Galaxy S6.

While much attention is devoted to imagining how Apple's innovations and technologies will be commodified by Android licensees, the reverse actually seems to be happening: any technical advantage introduced by others is eventually adopted by Apple (examples include LTE, NFC and barometers), while Apple's technical leaps remain largely unmatched by rivals (such as Touch ID, Continuity and 3D Touch).


Source: Samsung


Source: Samsung

Other "futuristic" ideas the company addressed included using multiple exposures composited to achieve wide dynamic range and "ISOCELL technology" that puts a barrier between pixels to increase light sensitivity and effectively "controls the absorption of electrons."


Source: Samsung

If that sounds familiar, it's because Apple introduced the concept as "deep trench isolation," in explaining its efforts to increase the pixel count within the iPhone 6s camera sensor without also increasing the noise commonly experienced as pixels get smaller as they are packed more densely to increase overall resolution.

Samsung rushed high resolution camera sensors to market before Apple, but their high megapixel counts didn't result in better photos. Instead, it resulted in low light noise and less accurate color reproduction.

While Apple explained that it was using this new technology to increase iPhone camera resolution without losing quality, Samsung stated that its goal for the same process (under a different name) was to reduce pixel size in order to help reduce the overall thickness of its phones.


Source: Samsung

Samsung stated it was reducing the pixel size of its 16MP sensor from 1.12um to 1.0um to achieve 1mm of reduced thickness. Apple reduced the pixel size of iPhone 6 from 8MP at 1.5um to 12MP at 1.22um, not primarily to reduce device thickness, but to increase photo and video capture resolution without losing quality, maintaining larger pixels than competing sensors. Pixel size reduction on its own simply makes each pixel less sensitive to light.

It's noteworthy that while Apple uses a custom version of Sony's camera sensor for iPhone 6/6s, Samsung also uses Sony's IMX240 sensor in its Galaxy S6/S6 Edge, at least in the versions it sends to reviewers. Regular users are finding that Samsung might also swap in its own ISOCELL camera sensors to save money, resulting in reduced image quality.

This all happened before



Overall, Samsung's investor conference seemed far less ambitious and confident as its event from 2013, where JK Shin, Samsung's president and chief executive of IT & Mobile, promised that the company would "play a key role in the premium smartphone market."

As AppleInsider noted at the time, this was a direct contradiction of the warning Samsung had earlier given its investors of slowing profits.

It also belied the reality that most of the phones Samsung had been—and was currently selling—were low end devices, not premium phones. Further, Samsung has been—and continues to repeatedly note—that its premium sales remain static (rather than experiencing any tremendous growth in demand as promised) and that its unit growth is coming from low end devices, which are eroding its Average Selling Price.


Source: Samsung

Back in 2013, Samsung focused upon screen resolutions, forecasting that by this year, it would be selling smartphones with 3840x2160 displays. Instead of that happening, the company is still selling "WQHD" screens, and even those are plaguing Samsung's high end devices with excessive screen resolutions that its relatively anemic Application Processors aren't quite capable of driving competitively.


Source: Samsung

In 2013, Samsung also laid out a plan for delivering 64-bit cores just like Apple had in its A7, but then actually spent two years trying to catch up.

Based on the company's still-vapor promises regarding the performance of its Exynos 8, it will remain slower at real world tasks than the A9 chip Apple has already sold by the millions in its iPhone 6s phones.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Computers/Internet
KEYWORDS: a7; a9; android; apple; applepinglist; microsoft; samsung
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To: adorno
Well, fined and dandy, but, while there may be a bunch of car models that can be equipped with Car Play, chances are that, the vast majority of purchases of those cars will choose not to get Car Play, since, it would be very limited by Apple's intervention and control of the technology. Also, Apple's share of the smartphone market, while significant, is lower than Android/Samsung/Google. Why limit yourself when you can get a better and more significant infotainment system from Google and others?

Boy, the Apple HATE is strong in you. It is the CAR MAKERS who make the selection of what is controlling their car audio systems, not the buyers of the cars. These are FACTORY STANDARD SYSTEMS, adorno. Those others do not have contracts with the car makers to supply the systems. Apple does. . . haven't you been paying attention?


Some of the automobile makers already contracted with Apple to use Car Play in their Automobiles
as of the beginning of 2015.

Apple has been developing Car Play for about five years. You just blithely IGNORE facts, don't you?

When it comes ultra-high-definition screens, well, they were around for a bunch of years before Apple decided to include them in one of the Mac computers. Fact is that, there were others that considered adding 4k screens with their PCs, but felt that it was overkill for most applications and for most people. It still is overkill, since, there aren't many apps or applications that can take advantage of that kind of resolution. It was mostly gimmicky and a way to create a refresh-cycle for their iMacs.

You love to distort facts, adorno. The 5K screens were extremely rare. Dell was selling a 24" 5K MONITOR for $2499 when Apple introduced the Apple iMac 5k for $2495, a computer which came compete with a built-in 27 inch 5K screen, a full iMac computer capable of displaying natively to that 5K screen, with a 1 TB Fusion drive (128GB SSD matched with a standard HD), Quad core Intel processor. . . etc. In other words, Apple was selling a full SYSTEM for what Dell and other were selling just the 5K monitor. . . and you are talking about "others considering" doing it. . . Give me a break. How idiotic can you get?

When it comes to fingerprint ID, well, my point still stands, that,Apple didn't invent it. It was another gimmick after it proved to not a bit problematic in the first iteration of the tech in their iPhones.

More of your specious claims. the TouchID did not prove to be problematic in the first iteration on the iPhones. Some guy claimed to have been able to get around it using a rubber fingerprint casting but no one was able to replicate his claims. It turned out he was using his own iPhone and a casting of his own fingerprint on his own finger and the TouchID was reading the ridges of his fat pads THROUGH his thin casting and through his finger skin! His technique did not work for anyone else, or on any other iPhone. No one else who tried it could get his system to work. . . because they tried it with a blind test. You have no evidence of such a "problematic first iteration" because there a couple million of those first iteration TouchID's in the wild working perfectly well with no one compromising their security. You just pulled that out of your rear from old FUD.

And, why also settle for third best when there are much better mapping apps from Google or Microsoft?

I love how you people who do not use Apple Maps can make such a judgement based on four year old data. . . and who do not use Apple Maps and condemn it out of hand, when those of us who use all three find it quite competent to do the job, and in some cases, better.

Oh, I forgot to give them credit for one of the greatest 'innovations'; ever, perhaps even bigger than the invention of the wheel, and that's the idea of 'round corners' for their iPhones.

Apple never claimed to have patented "round corners" on their iPhones. That was a FUD claim put out by SAMSUNG in their patent infringement defense for public consumption which YOU obviously have swallowed hook-line-and-sinker. When anyone gets a "design patent," the drawing will show the design, including such thing as "rounded corners" and black slab rectangles, and include a description of what the design is. The "rounded corners" are not "patented" but the overall design, "look and feel," and appearance ARE patented. It was SAMSUNG who claimed that Apple had patented "rounded corners" and the judge slapped them down for doing so. . . in court. She told them the case would be tried before the jury not in the court of public opinion and to shut down their publicity campaign, because it was an attempt to prejudice the jury! Obviously it worked on dim-witted people . . . apparently, like you.

Have you covered all your FUD memes, adorno??? Try harder. I'm sure you'll think of some more.

41 posted on 11/22/2015 9:57:56 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: nomad

We own several Samsung televisions and about to buy their new curved screen. We love them!


42 posted on 11/22/2015 10:06:07 PM PST by kcvl
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To: dila813
There are better Android phones than Samsung, there are Android phones that can run circles around Samsung and Apple.

Please, name these "better Android phones" that can run circles around Samsung and Apple." Please link to the reviews showing these "circles." Link to the benchmarks showing where these mythical Android phones are turning in faster benchmarks than the latest iPhones and show us why the big testing labs haven't reported these benchmarks.

I am aware of the so-called "hardened" screens and flexible screens. . . that doesn't mean they are "better" overall phones than Apple or even Samsung's phones. Harder means more brittle, it's a trade off. Flexible means more spurious inputs on the touch screen. Screens on the sides or back are gimmicks, not necessarily better. What good are they, how do they make the phone "better?"

Show us how either Samsung have "stolen" these ideas from the "larger" specialty phone market (it isn't larger, dila813, it's minuscule). Most of the "larger market" doesn't even make smartphones. They make "feature phones" and "dumb phones". . . but please, show us these better phones. Don't just toss a claim out there and leave it to fester. Prove your contention. Oh, and your phone has to be in production, not a pipe-dream of some engineer. In production. I've seen lots of pipe-dreams that never made it off the CAD program screen, even from some of the big name makers.

The fact is that most of the non-mainstream makers don't have the wherewithal to have research departments because all of them EXCEPT Samsung and Apple are operating at a LOSS! That is a slippery thing called a FACT, dila813.

They have their products manufactured at FoxConn, Pegatron, etc. They don't have manufacturing facilities. They make phones to what is called a REFERENCE design, a white box, and put their names on it. That's all.

43 posted on 11/22/2015 10:10:30 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: Swordmaker

I didn’t say they were better in every respect, but they have features that both of them are stealing, here you go:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Yota-Phone-Dual-Sided-Smartphone-LCD,19786.html

From DECEMBER 13, 2012 10:00 PM, features that Apple and Samsung have still yet to copy.

The company website: https://yotaphone.com/us-en/


44 posted on 11/23/2015 3:23:10 AM PST by dila813
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To: Swordmaker

ALGORE the Global Warmer on the board? Anyone who backs / supports / funds Obama’s policy is guilty of far more than that. I don’t defend massive corporations that have paid trolls.


45 posted on 11/23/2015 3:56:51 AM PST by ImJustAnotherOkie
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To: Swordmaker

This is a good chart to compare differences on IOS and Android:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Android_vs_iOS

There are many many hardware manufacturers with special features and optimizations for different applications available. So think of this as a generic OS Phone Comparison only.

Just the straight scoop.


46 posted on 11/23/2015 4:09:48 AM PST by dila813
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To: Swordmaker

Here is some more for you:
Gaming 10 core Smart Phone: http://www.gsmarena.com/acer_predator_primo_ifa_2015_hands_on_review-review-1300p2.php

The Mate S is Huawei’s answer to the iPhone 6 Plus: http://www.engadget.com/2015/09/02/huawei-mate-s-announced/

Sony smartphone has 4K screen and new camera module: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34117115


47 posted on 11/23/2015 4:40:32 AM PST by dila813
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To: dila813
I didn't say they were better in every respect, but they have features that both of them are stealing, here you go:
Yota Phone Dual Sided Smartphone LCD

ROTFLMAO!

FROM A 2012 PROPOSED PHONE: "Both of the handset's screen measures at 4.3 inches, with the LCD screen in particular boasting a resolution of 1280 x 720, which is around 340 ppm (pixels-per inch). The Yota Phone aims to "help consumers enjoy life's virtual side without missing the real one" by switching between the two screens. . .

Yoga's upcoming smartphone sports a 1.5GHz dual-core Krait processor and runs on Google's Android 4.2 Jelly Bean operating system. The main camera boasts 12-megapixels, accompanied by an unspecified "HD" front-facing camera. . .

More on the device, which launches sometime during the second half of 2013, will be unveiled at the Mobile World Congress in February.

The Yota Phone with its small screen was finally released in late 2013 with a retail price of $876 in Russia, Great Britain, and the Middle East to ho-hum response and very few dual screen apps available with limited functionality. They think they may offer them for sale in the US in late 2015. They aren't here yet.

Why should they copy something that no one wants?

48 posted on 11/23/2015 1:22:07 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie
I don’t defend massive corporations that have paid trolls.

And again you make accusations you cannot backup with any proof. That makes you a liar, Okie.

49 posted on 11/23/2015 1:39:47 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: dila813
Gaming 10 core Smart Phone:
Acer Predator Primo Hands on Review

Again, ROTFLMAO, Dila.

This is NOT a review or a "hands on" of anything, dila. The product is not even in production. It is a product announcement for PRE-ORDERS. No tests, nothing firm. Android phones cannot use TEN PROCESSORS on a mobile device. It isn't set up to manage them. What will the battery life be like trying to run ten hot processors with some of them running at 2.5GHz? I specified phones available today, not pipe dream phones for the future.

The Mate S is Huawei's answer to the iPhone 6 Plus

Dial, did you even read the article? Huawei is competing against Apple's LAST YEAR's Apple iPhone 6 plus, after Apple released THIS YEAR's iPhone 6S Plus. Huawei is a year late to be doing that. Add that they want to retail it for $830 to $900 in US dollars. Far more than the iPhone 6 Plus, their announced phone they are competing against. Say what?

The Mate S was tested against the new iPhone 6S and was blown out of the water by the 6S's speed and did not even beat the iPhone 6's speed. Huawei thinks they are going to be able to find a way around Apple's announced and patented Force Touch screen, so they announced their 128GB (price and availability to be announced later) will have that feature, when they figure out a work-around. Sorry, nice try.

Sony smartphone has 4K screen and new camera module

Sorry, dial, no banana. This is another announcement of a FUTURE phone, with a concept phone, not a production phone that is actually for sale. At this point, it's merely hot-air-ware. My specified challenge was to show a phone being sold. There is no sane purpose in a 5.5" 4K screen which can only eat up battery capacity and use huge amounts of system resources to display images to no purpose because the human eye cannot discern any improvement over far lower resolutions at that size. You'd need a microscope to tell the differences in pixels. . . but the capacity of processors to move that many pixels at reasonable frame rates is absurd in a phone. This is merely spec creep for no purpose except advertising hype to sell to people who don't know any better. . . and who want to be able to brag about size of their members. . . er, screens.

Beyond a certain level at which the human eye can focus, there is no point in going any farther in pixel density. This phone is way over that level.

Try meeting the challenge.

50 posted on 11/23/2015 2:15:24 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: Swordmaker

You didn’t know AlGore was on the board of directors?

Boy, someone flunked poli kindergarten.


51 posted on 11/23/2015 2:46:16 PM PST by ImJustAnotherOkie
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To: dila813
This is a good chart to compare differences on IOS and Android:

Android vs iOS

There are many many hardware manufacturers with special features and optimizations for different applications available. So think of this as a generic OS Phone Comparison only.

Just the straight scoop.

Uh, no, It is actually a poor chart as there are many errors on the iOS side, and even some on the Android side, which is to be expected since it is obvious compiled by someone who isn't familiar with iOS and what is possible or available. Here, let me correct a few mis-conceptions, and let me bring it somewhat up-to-date.

Developer Google Apple Inc.
Initial release September 23, 2008 July 29, 2007
Source model Open source Closed, with open source components.
Customizability A lot. Can change almost anything. Limited unless jailbroken
Easy media transfer depends on model with desktop applications, over WIFI, AirDrop, iCloud Sharing, iCloud Drive, HandOff between devices.
Available on Many phones and tablets, including Kindle Fire(modified android), LG, HTC, Samsung, Sony, Motorola, Nexus, and others. Also, Google Glasses iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, Apple TV (2nd,3rd and 4th generation)
Messaging Google Hangouts iMessage, carrier messaging, Yahoo Messaging, Facebook, dozens of alternate messaging apps, Google Hangouts.
App store Google Play -- 1,000,000+ apps. Other app stores like Amazon and Getjar also distribute Android apps. (unconfirmed ".APKs") Apple app store -- 1,000,000+ apps, Enterprise Apps by certificate.
Video chat Google Hangouts FaceTime, Skype, Yahoo Video Messaging, ooVoo, +100 more.
OS family Linux OS X, UNIXTM
Programmed in C, C++, Java C, C++, Objective-C, Swift
Open source Kernel, UI, and some standard apps The iOS kernel is not open source but is based on the open-source Darwin UNIXTM OS.
Widgets Yes No, except in NotificationCenter
Internet browsing Google Chrome (or Android Browser on older versions; other browsers are available) Safari, Google Chrome, FireFox, Opera, Kaspersky Safe, Puffin FLASH safe, Microsoft Intune Browser, SkyFire Flash enabled Browser, University of California Web Browser, and hundreds more.
Voice commands Google Now (on newer versions) Siri, Google Now, Microsoft Cortana.
Maps Google Maps Apple Maps, Google Maps, Microsoft Bing Maps, MapQuest, TomTom Navigation, Waze, Garmin Navigon.
Market share 83% of smartphones globally (July, 2015), 75.6% of tablets globally (2015, including toy tablets many of which don't have WIFI) 14% of smartphones globally (July, 2015), 24.5% of tablets globally (July, 2015), 29% of tablets in North America (as of July 2015), and 33% of Smartphones in South Korea, Samsung's and LG's Home market (as of January 2015)
North American Tablet USAGE share 26.5% of tablets in North America (January 2015) 70.8% of tablets in North America (January 2015)
Worldwide Smartphone PROFIT share 6% Smartphone profit share (Second Quarter 2015) 94% Smartphone profit share (Second Quarter 2015)
Available language(s) 51 Languages 44 Languages
Latest stable release Android 6.0 (Marshmallow) under (May 28, 2015) 9.1 (October 12, 2015)
Percent of users updated to last major release As of October 2015: Android version: Marshmallow 6.0, negligible%; Lollipop 5.1, 7.9%; Lollipop 5.0, 15.6%; KitKat 4.4, 38.9%; Jellybean 4.3, 4.3%; Jellybean4.2, 14.5%; Jellybean Jellybean 4.1, 11.4%; Ice Cream Sandwich 4.0.4/3, 3.4%; Gingerbread 2.0.3-7, 3.8%; Froyo 2.2, 0.2%. iOS 8.1 hit 92% adoption rate by the time iOS 9.0 was released on September 16, 2015, 9.0 was adopted by 61% by October 21, 2015), iOS 9.1 was adopted by 28% on its first day.
Device manufacturer Google, LG, Samsung, HTC, Sony, ASUS, Motorola, and many more Apple Inc

52 posted on 11/23/2015 5:24:43 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie
You didn’t know AlGore was on the board of directors?

Boy, someone flunked pole kindergarten.

I posted the appointment announcement on FR when it happened back in March of 2003, Okie. . . and criticized it heavily. Are you that late to paying attention in class?

53 posted on 11/23/2015 5:27:43 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: Swordmaker

Mad, aren’t we?


54 posted on 11/23/2015 5:32:00 PM PST by dila813
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To: Swordmaker

What will you say when Apple buys them?


55 posted on 11/23/2015 5:35:54 PM PST by dila813
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To: dila813
Mad, aren't we?

You may be, but me? Not at all. . . just correcting mis-and-outdated-information from Android heads, you included. It just amazes me how some people who simply do not use a product can be so certain of the superiority of their chosen platform despite the reviews from non-partisan reviewers and the bench-marks showing that Apple products are blowing the doors off of their favored platform. They dance around about things that MIGHT be coming out, using the older processors, but GEE WHIZ look at this new gizmo! Or they trot out old comparison charts with cherry picked data that is most often just downright WRONG. . . just as you did with your comparison chart which left out important details or denigrated other key features. . . because it had been compiled by an admitted Android partisan with an agenda.

56 posted on 11/23/2015 5:40:18 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: Swordmaker

Enjoy your apple, I think you have completely forgotten the point.

Worst case of forum ADD I have ever seen.


57 posted on 11/23/2015 5:46:09 PM PST by dila813
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To: dila813
What will you say when Apple buys them?

Buys who? Yota? It will never happen. Incidentally, Apple has a patent on a double screened cellular phone applied for back in 2008 and granted in 2010 which I saw on Patently Apple some time back. Apple hasn't used for that design for obvious reasons. They also haven't bothered to send a cease-and-desist letter to Yota as far as I know, even though they have a patent on the design and certainly could demand they license the patent. Perhaps they are not because there is a distinction in that Yota's design uses two different kinds of screen and that is sufficient to be a new invention under patent law. . . so long as they cite Apple's precedence with their two sided cellular patent.

Frankly, I think both patents could be validity challenged on grounds of either obviousness or prior art, showing numerous flip phones with secondary screens on the outside of the flip lid showing data about what is available if one opens the phone. . . or even independent data.

58 posted on 11/23/2015 5:50:51 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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To: Swordmaker

Ask yourself why you ramble so much, like an online panic attack.

The point is there is a greater universe of hardware within the Android ecosystemarket

I proved it, that’s the point....not that you personally don’t think they are any good.

Anyone who isn’the a brand chaser will find things they like.


59 posted on 11/23/2015 5:59:33 PM PST by dila813
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To: dila813
Enjoy your apple, I think you have completely forgotten the point.

No. You claimed that there were lots of Android phones by small companies out there "running circles around both Samsung and Apple" from which those companies were stealing ideas or features. I challenged you to produce those phones and companies. I specified they had to be on the market and not pipe-dreams. I.E. In Production and available for sale. I expected to see USEFUL, desirable features that have been stolen by Apple or Samsung. As far as I can see, you have not succeeded in producing anything of the kind.

You made an assertion of fact. I challenged you to prove your point. You have not done so. These small companies (and I don't think Huawei, Sony, and Acer count as "small" companies. Yota does, but it took them years to get a small screen, fairly processor crippled phone to a few limited markets, that will not attract any app developers. . . at a VERY high price. . . with a single feature that I don't see either Samsung or Apple falling over themselves to steal. It simply doesn't meet the challenge criteria or even your claim.

The TEN CORE gaming rig phone pipe-dream will never be made, because there is no justifiable market for it.

60 posted on 11/23/2015 6:10:16 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue....)
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